To pay or not to pay - Type Rating
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To pay or not to pay - Type Rating
Its been done a million times I know but here goes again 
Food for thought - just imagine every pilot refused to pay for his/her type rating. Do you think the likes of Ryanair would have grown as quick as they've done? Would there be as many existing/new biz jet operators as there are now?
Also, has it been good for the industry overall i.e aided airline growth or detrimental to growth? It's certainly been detrimental to pilots pockets but then again would there be as many pilots employed now if we hadn't coughed up?
Would be interesting to find out your views - To pay or not to pay? YES/NO
Food for thought - just imagine every pilot refused to pay for his/her type rating. Do you think the likes of Ryanair would have grown as quick as they've done? Would there be as many existing/new biz jet operators as there are now?
Also, has it been good for the industry overall i.e aided airline growth or detrimental to growth? It's certainly been detrimental to pilots pockets but then again would there be as many pilots employed now if we hadn't coughed up?
Would be interesting to find out your views - To pay or not to pay? YES/NO
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Used to be in the definitely 'no pay' camp but what are the options? / what is the reality of the situation?
Shall I be patriotic to my cause by obtaining an FI rating and instruct for a year earning a pittance, risking live, body and soul and suffer financially too? Or shall I stick to my well paid (non flying) job for another 6 months then pay for a rating that would guarantee me a job? By doing the latter I would get to keep my house at least! The choice is getting easier to make by the day.
Shall I be patriotic to my cause by obtaining an FI rating and instruct for a year earning a pittance, risking live, body and soul and suffer financially too? Or shall I stick to my well paid (non flying) job for another 6 months then pay for a rating that would guarantee me a job? By doing the latter I would get to keep my house at least! The choice is getting easier to make by the day.
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In an ideal world all you would need would be an fATPL.
However i fear this would mean the only people getting jobs would be the 21 year old integrated guys.
The SSTR is a good way for the 30+ modular guy to even the field a bit.
Its easy to say we shouldnt be paying but with airlines going bust and the situation likely to get worse it may be a necessary evil.
However i fear this would mean the only people getting jobs would be the 21 year old integrated guys.
The SSTR is a good way for the 30+ modular guy to even the field a bit.
Its easy to say we shouldnt be paying but with airlines going bust and the situation likely to get worse it may be a necessary evil.
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I will keep saying this until I die, if you can't afford for a SSTR to go wrong then don't do it, I know of a handful of people it has gone wrong for and they have had to give up their house & the dream of flying on the back if it, it is a massive risk to do it if you can't afford it, but this is something only the individual will know.
Now the flip side is whether you can afford it, and assuming you can then do it, there are alot (the majority) of people out there who will say that doing a SSTR undermines T&Cs etc etc, but remember this is a cut throat industry, and with the best will in the world if all the wannabes decided to stick together and tell the airlines to stick it there will always be the odd few who will screw you over, this is why a pact will never work, the SSTR is here to stay. End of the day you are on your own, and it is up to you to do everything you can to secure a position, if means doing a SSTR then so be it, if this means doing the FIC course then so be it, only you can decide what's best for you.
Now the flip side is whether you can afford it, and assuming you can then do it, there are alot (the majority) of people out there who will say that doing a SSTR undermines T&Cs etc etc, but remember this is a cut throat industry, and with the best will in the world if all the wannabes decided to stick together and tell the airlines to stick it there will always be the odd few who will screw you over, this is why a pact will never work, the SSTR is here to stay. End of the day you are on your own, and it is up to you to do everything you can to secure a position, if means doing a SSTR then so be it, if this means doing the FIC course then so be it, only you can decide what's best for you.
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If you read the moudular vs integrated thread then you will see that the people who go integrated, do so because they feel it gives them a better chance of getting a job. This means they are paying £1000's of pounds more than a modular guy to try and make themselves more employable.
Why then shouldnt a modular guy do exactly the same and pay for a TR to make yourself more employable. Any integrated guy who comes on and says you shouldnt is being a bit hypocritical in my book.
If you go the integrated route and pay for a TR then you really have paid alot for your job
The one thing i would be aware of though is that with a 737/757 TR no turboprop operator would be interested so you may end up doing yourself out of a job as well.
Why then shouldnt a modular guy do exactly the same and pay for a TR to make yourself more employable. Any integrated guy who comes on and says you shouldnt is being a bit hypocritical in my book.
If you go the integrated route and pay for a TR then you really have paid alot for your job
The one thing i would be aware of though is that with a 737/757 TR no turboprop operator would be interested so you may end up doing yourself out of a job as well.
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My perception agrees with Prophead in that the current way of doing things seems to have opened up prospects many more people.
It seems to me, that one way or another, a low hour gal/guy will pay for their own TR. That maybe upfront with or without a job offer/letter of intent or as part of a cadet scheme or through a low(er) salary for a few years...at the end of the day you still need plenty of money and sufficient ability, just as I imagine it was the case in the pre-SSTR (JAA) days when 700hrs minimum was required.
It seems to me, that one way or another, a low hour gal/guy will pay for their own TR. That maybe upfront with or without a job offer/letter of intent or as part of a cadet scheme or through a low(er) salary for a few years...at the end of the day you still need plenty of money and sufficient ability, just as I imagine it was the case in the pre-SSTR (JAA) days when 700hrs minimum was required.
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The idea of paying for a type rating is something that is hard to swallow for the older pilots who were given a TR on joining a company along with uniform.
The pendulum swung completely the other way when some airlines saw a profit to be made by gettiung greater utilisation of their simulators (bmi for example). It also allowed the airline to have a good look at the candidate and, if they had the skills, offer them a job afterwars. At a time when there was a glut of pilots the airlines could cherry pick those qualified on their type of aircraft and so save the cost of conversions.
The advent of Ryanair and others charging for interviews, uniforms etc changed all that again. We now have lots of pilots who want to fly in Europe and airlines that are desperately looking at ways of reducing costs - exacerbated by the struggle with the soaring cost of fuel and those that haven't 'hedged' their fuel costs (Rynaiar and easy I'm told) must be really hurting!
So where does this leave our aspiring ab-initio pilots? There is an increasing demand NOW for pilots - especially in the developing markets of the Far East. However as we all know to well that it takes a long time to become qualified and thus 'employable'.
This could, and should, be remembered when making your choice of training route - i.e. it may be cheaper to take the longer route via the PPL, Flying Instructor, air taxi and into Regional airlines but will the airlines still be hiring when you come out the far side? Perhaps (R) perhaps there is an advantage to be gained by doing the intergrated course.
If the current credit crunch becomes a wholesale recession then history has shown that it is the travel market that gets hit first and hardest. Oldtimers can remember the rapid demise of Air Europe, Paramount, Dan and others within a year. Should that happen again we will see recruiting almost at a standstill with just replacement of retirees as necessary.
Sorry if this paints a gloomy picture but I intended to offer some thoughts to those making the first steps. I started my commercial career with a DEC on turboprops and the doors were slamming closed behind me in 1990 as the indusrty went into decline.
HWB
The pendulum swung completely the other way when some airlines saw a profit to be made by gettiung greater utilisation of their simulators (bmi for example). It also allowed the airline to have a good look at the candidate and, if they had the skills, offer them a job afterwars. At a time when there was a glut of pilots the airlines could cherry pick those qualified on their type of aircraft and so save the cost of conversions.
The advent of Ryanair and others charging for interviews, uniforms etc changed all that again. We now have lots of pilots who want to fly in Europe and airlines that are desperately looking at ways of reducing costs - exacerbated by the struggle with the soaring cost of fuel and those that haven't 'hedged' their fuel costs (Rynaiar and easy I'm told) must be really hurting!
So where does this leave our aspiring ab-initio pilots? There is an increasing demand NOW for pilots - especially in the developing markets of the Far East. However as we all know to well that it takes a long time to become qualified and thus 'employable'.
This could, and should, be remembered when making your choice of training route - i.e. it may be cheaper to take the longer route via the PPL, Flying Instructor, air taxi and into Regional airlines but will the airlines still be hiring when you come out the far side? Perhaps (R) perhaps there is an advantage to be gained by doing the intergrated course.
If the current credit crunch becomes a wholesale recession then history has shown that it is the travel market that gets hit first and hardest. Oldtimers can remember the rapid demise of Air Europe, Paramount, Dan and others within a year. Should that happen again we will see recruiting almost at a standstill with just replacement of retirees as necessary.
Sorry if this paints a gloomy picture but I intended to offer some thoughts to those making the first steps. I started my commercial career with a DEC on turboprops and the doors were slamming closed behind me in 1990 as the indusrty went into decline.
HWB
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As a military guy with x-thousand hours and 16 years of flying experience - I could not believe that anyone - particularly anyone in my position - would pay for their own type-rating.......right up to the point when I was in an interview for a particular job that I really wanted and the company guy said "Of course you'll have to fund your own TR". My belligerent and 'stand up for the guys' response was: 'Of course - no problem!"
As with many things - if we all stuck together and no-one said they would fund their own type ratings then of course - the industry would take notice, just as if we all also said that we are not going to pay these ridiculous prices for fuel - the price would have to come down. When reality hits home however, people need jobs, or need to use oil fueled engines, and we cough up - if there is no other way of achieving our aims then we 'mugs' have to pay up.
I am very, very sad that this is about the only industry where one has to pay about £20,000 to land a job but the laws of supply and demand have won the day and here we are.
As with many things - if we all stuck together and no-one said they would fund their own type ratings then of course - the industry would take notice, just as if we all also said that we are not going to pay these ridiculous prices for fuel - the price would have to come down. When reality hits home however, people need jobs, or need to use oil fueled engines, and we cough up - if there is no other way of achieving our aims then we 'mugs' have to pay up.
I am very, very sad that this is about the only industry where one has to pay about £20,000 to land a job but the laws of supply and demand have won the day and here we are.
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If everyone stopped right now and stood their ground then the airlines would have to give the right person the job as opposed to the wealthy person or the one who is willing to take the biggest risk re repayment.
This will never happen as human nature is greed before commonsence for the bigger scheme. This is the same reason why the managers realise they can push pilots to the wall as somebody will always do what they want.
If you pay you are just absorbing the costs of the company you want to work for. Some call that an investment for your own future. Alas you can bet your house that the company will not ever do anything of the sort in return.
Paying is like cancer. Once it starts it wont stop unless something drastic is done. You will get in the seat then sit there and realise this but justify it to yourself that what you did was right.
DONT PAY is my vote. Everyone stand firm and let the airline employ you because you are the best for the job.
This will never happen as human nature is greed before commonsence for the bigger scheme. This is the same reason why the managers realise they can push pilots to the wall as somebody will always do what they want.
If you pay you are just absorbing the costs of the company you want to work for. Some call that an investment for your own future. Alas you can bet your house that the company will not ever do anything of the sort in return.
Paying is like cancer. Once it starts it wont stop unless something drastic is done. You will get in the seat then sit there and realise this but justify it to yourself that what you did was right.
DONT PAY is my vote. Everyone stand firm and let the airline employ you because you are the best for the job.
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This is a question to the "never pay for a type rating folk" I know why people have this opinion as some people say it is ruining the industry and its unfair to other people. But ask yourselves this if you had a 'spare' £20k that you could spend on anything you wanted and you knew if you had a rating you could well get your dream job that you have been working towards for years would you say to yourself self "No I am not buying a rating because its ruining the industry" or would you say "yeah lets go for it" ??
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. . . if you had a 'spare' £20k that you could spend on anything you wanted . . .
Even if I did have the money to 'invest' in a speculative type rating, and even if I'd decided it was a sensible use of my cash, I'd still think very carefully. As Prophead has pointed out, having a 737 or A320 on your licence will make for some interesting questions at a turboprop interview. Yes, TP operators lose experienced pilots to jets all the time, but a jet type rating is a very clear statement of intent. In short, you are ruling yourself out of contention with many of the airlines who are prepared to take low-houred guys.
Frankly, I really don't understand the obsession with getting straight onto a jet with 200hrs (I know, as turboprop driver I would say that). The fact is, there are UK TP operators (more than one) who are recruiting low-hours guys right now, and do not charge for type ratings.
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LUCK!
most of the jobs, when you start working you get sqeeze until you get experience, and then that will be you pasport to get a good offer...
most of us are here because all we want is fly, will you stay in ground doing something that is not what you want, waiting untill you get a call saying that the will pay you to do what you want?... now, can you afford all this cost of spending a t/r and not knowing for sure if you get the job...?what do you lose, once you have your type probably now you have a bit more options...
take ryanair, how come they have such as many pilots working for them for 3-5 years and then off.... if there were real options of getting a job without paying companies like ryanair wouldnt have pilots.... that is i my opinion.
why not?
most of the jobs, when you start working you get sqeeze until you get experience, and then that will be you pasport to get a good offer...
most of us are here because all we want is fly, will you stay in ground doing something that is not what you want, waiting untill you get a call saying that the will pay you to do what you want?... now, can you afford all this cost of spending a t/r and not knowing for sure if you get the job...?what do you lose, once you have your type probably now you have a bit more options...
take ryanair, how come they have such as many pilots working for them for 3-5 years and then off.... if there were real options of getting a job without paying companies like ryanair wouldnt have pilots.... that is i my opinion.
why not?
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if you pay and have 300h, you go nowhere.believe me, who want a 300 hours guy to fly an airline jet?when asian airlines pay cadets....so they can afford to pay you if they want...
pay for line training, they will kick you out 4 days later after cashing your cheque, then you will have to pay for a second line training plus attorney fees. they just want your money
.
pay for line training, they will kick you out 4 days later after cashing your cheque, then you will have to pay for a second line training plus attorney fees. they just want your money
.
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So you spend £40K or more on training and then what? There are hundreds and hundreds of pilots with minimum hours on piston. What makes you think you are any better than the next guy? What if your over 35 and cannot get on the CTC scheme?
So you go to Ryanair, but they have the right to boot you out if you fail any of the type rating and keep your money, scary. Or you undertake a type rating on a 737 or a 320, so now at least you show a potential employer that you are able to pass a Type Rating. However a TR is not much use on its own, if you do go down the TR route you need to get a few hundred hours as well.
Right or wrong is not important, there are a lot of people on PPrune who will tell you to do this or that, the reality is far different, you must do what you feel is right for you.
As for those who 'just want to fly' and 'it's not about the money', well all I can say is grow up.
Airline flying can be boring, thank god it is, as we don't want things to get interesting, like a engine fire or decompression. If you want to just fly go rent a Cessna, you will enjoy it, if its not about money, well try telling the bank manger that and see what he says.
So you go to Ryanair, but they have the right to boot you out if you fail any of the type rating and keep your money, scary. Or you undertake a type rating on a 737 or a 320, so now at least you show a potential employer that you are able to pass a Type Rating. However a TR is not much use on its own, if you do go down the TR route you need to get a few hundred hours as well.
Right or wrong is not important, there are a lot of people on PPrune who will tell you to do this or that, the reality is far different, you must do what you feel is right for you.
As for those who 'just want to fly' and 'it's not about the money', well all I can say is grow up.
Airline flying can be boring, thank god it is, as we don't want things to get interesting, like a engine fire or decompression. If you want to just fly go rent a Cessna, you will enjoy it, if its not about money, well try telling the bank manger that and see what he says.
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What if your over 35 and cannot get on the CTC scheme?
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I find this debate interesting about whether you should or should not pay for a TR.
I am not sure whether anyone has this information, but I would be interested to know what percentage of people were sponsored back in the late 80's and early 90's, against people who self funded their CPL/IR. It was around that time that I was applying for every single sponsorship under the sun and subsequently being rejected. I seem to recall quite a number of airlines doing a part sponsorship, with BA being the only company that would pay for the whole course. If my memory serves me correctly, even before 9/11, some of the smaller airlines that would part sponsor withdrew their schemes. Did this force people into having to pay for the CPL/IR off their own back and self sponsor? Was there a debate then about having to pay for your ab-initio training?
Just interested, any thoughts?
I am not sure whether anyone has this information, but I would be interested to know what percentage of people were sponsored back in the late 80's and early 90's, against people who self funded their CPL/IR. It was around that time that I was applying for every single sponsorship under the sun and subsequently being rejected
. I seem to recall quite a number of airlines doing a part sponsorship, with BA being the only company that would pay for the whole course. If my memory serves me correctly, even before 9/11, some of the smaller airlines that would part sponsor withdrew their schemes. Did this force people into having to pay for the CPL/IR off their own back and self sponsor? Was there a debate then about having to pay for your ab-initio training?Just interested, any thoughts?
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I'm sure there would have been such debates really...and look where we are now....it is standard for wannabees to pay for their CPL/IR whther its integrated or modular. I ams ure back in them days there was a percentage of people who said they would never pay for their own training but the reality is, is that if 10% of people have the money to do this then the rest must follow or fall by the wayside........the sure fire way of NOT getting a job is not having a CPL/IR so what can a wannabee do.....back in them days if airlines stopped paying for the training you have two options.....1) Cough up and pay for it or 2) find an alternative career..... you can have all the pacts and contracts in the world amongst wannabees saying we will all stand firm and not pay for our training BUT the reality is as soon as an airline gets an applicant in their office offering the chance to fulfill their dreams the loyalty will mean nada.....its a dog eat dog world and ultimately people have their interest at heart. Maybe the debate that was then for CPL/IR payment is just the way it is becoming for SSTR's.....at the end of the day it might just be that this becomes standard also...and in 20 years maybe we'll be having the debate that we have to invest in a 10% share of the aircraft itself for the privilage of flying it.....imagine 10 years ago the thought of having to pay for your own interviews and uniforms but for one airline this is now standard...i don't see how other won't follow if they think they can away with it.....best get saving....i heard a 10% share in an A380 is big bucks!!!!!!!! Personally...if my situation allows it i'll invest in a TR...if it doesn't....i'll look at other ways of getting that first step on the career ladder.....ultimately....a CPL/IR is the only way it'll happen.....maybe in a few years we'll be saying a SSTR is the only way also!!!! anyhow...ultimately there's so much doom and gloom on here that maybe we should all stop worrying about think positively about achieving the common goal.....i don't care about oil prices, or SSTR's etc etc.....i'm positively thinking that i'll get to where i want to be....call me naive but life's to short to worry!!!!
