No A Levels, Work Experience Enough?
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No A Levels, Work Experience Enough?
Hi
I'm still in the research phase, but planning to do a modular fATPL in the
next few months - all the modules back to back.
My big concern is that I never acheived any A-Levels, though my current career, of the last 8 years, as a computer programmer is certainly mathematically oriented. Also i've made good progression, for example working on systems for large investment banks. The obvious question to anyone who who would know is: Will this be enough for an airline recruiter, or will my CV be automatically filed in the bin without the usual minimum maths and physics?
Any feedback at all would be helpful, especially if anyone's been in a similar situation. At the end of the day if I have to get the A-Levels that's what i'll do - but maybe I can study these along with the ATPL if i'm dead in the water without them!
Many Thanks
Nic
I'm still in the research phase, but planning to do a modular fATPL in the
next few months - all the modules back to back.
My big concern is that I never acheived any A-Levels, though my current career, of the last 8 years, as a computer programmer is certainly mathematically oriented. Also i've made good progression, for example working on systems for large investment banks. The obvious question to anyone who who would know is: Will this be enough for an airline recruiter, or will my CV be automatically filed in the bin without the usual minimum maths and physics?
Any feedback at all would be helpful, especially if anyone's been in a similar situation. At the end of the day if I have to get the A-Levels that's what i'll do - but maybe I can study these along with the ATPL if i'm dead in the water without them!
Many Thanks
Nic
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Hi,
I'm in the same boat, but I have got bad GCSE's, no "A" Levels but have a high IQ! Go figure...
From my understanding, Flying experience is what the Airlines are asking for, but one can assume that a person with better grades would have an edge, especially if you have the same amount of hours.
If you do a search, "Wee Weasley Welshman" in one of the threads tackles this issue.
Still don't let it put you off.
I'm in the same boat, but I have got bad GCSE's, no "A" Levels but have a high IQ! Go figure...
From my understanding, Flying experience is what the Airlines are asking for, but one can assume that a person with better grades would have an edge, especially if you have the same amount of hours.
If you do a search, "Wee Weasley Welshman" in one of the threads tackles this issue.
Still don't let it put you off.
Last edited by 360 degree mason; 7th Apr 2008 at 21:05. Reason: Edit some more whack-ass grammar before the spelling police smack me upside the head.
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Generally a minimum requirement of an FTO is the matter of having A levels, this shows that you've worked hard and stuck at something of a larger workload than that of GCSE level. CTC, OAA, Cabair and other FTO's require them... I guess the best way to find out is have a chat with them but at the end of the day I think you will be looking at doing A levels.
Last edited by poss; 7th Apr 2008 at 22:29.
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Oh, as well don't forget theres the modular route, then Flight Instructor Rating to route to build hours and make yourself look more attractive to an employer.
My mate's mate is a Dash 8 FO, went the old self-improver route and he only has average qualifications.
My mate's mate is a Dash 8 FO, went the old self-improver route and he only has average qualifications.
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Nic,
If you are looking to get into CTC or onto a 'tagged' scheme such as Netjets/OAA, then A levels would be an advantage and would help open the first door for you at the application stage. However, the number of available places on these schemes are few and far between and lots of bright/well qualified people dont make it due to the intense competition. As far as I know the Integrated schools have their own entry tests and dont require A Levels as a pre requisite. I wouldnt worry too much about it anyway as you have already said you are going to go modular.
The ATPL theory does not require A level standard maths or physics to be understood. Its more about being able to take in a large quantity of info. in a relatively short space of time and being able to apply it.
As long as you apply yourself it isnt as bad as some people would have you think.
As for jobs, I cannot recall seeing any adverts requesting A levels or degrees ( although they are of course a bonus to have on your CV, but then so is life and previous career experience ).
CPL/MEIR/MCC/ATPL theory passes plus the required hours on type is what really counts. My advice is not to worry about getting your A levels at this stage considering the route you are going to take.
Good luck with your training.
Jon
If you are looking to get into CTC or onto a 'tagged' scheme such as Netjets/OAA, then A levels would be an advantage and would help open the first door for you at the application stage. However, the number of available places on these schemes are few and far between and lots of bright/well qualified people dont make it due to the intense competition. As far as I know the Integrated schools have their own entry tests and dont require A Levels as a pre requisite. I wouldnt worry too much about it anyway as you have already said you are going to go modular.
The ATPL theory does not require A level standard maths or physics to be understood. Its more about being able to take in a large quantity of info. in a relatively short space of time and being able to apply it.
As long as you apply yourself it isnt as bad as some people would have you think.
As for jobs, I cannot recall seeing any adverts requesting A levels or degrees ( although they are of course a bonus to have on your CV, but then so is life and previous career experience ).
CPL/MEIR/MCC/ATPL theory passes plus the required hours on type is what really counts. My advice is not to worry about getting your A levels at this stage considering the route you are going to take.
Good luck with your training.
Jon
PPRuNe Handmaiden
nic,
As you've planned to get your flying qualifications via the modular route then A levels aren't as important. You do not need them to hold an ATPL. You need an ATPL. Also, now you're 25 it's also not as important.
Instead of pinning your hopes on a jet job straight away, plan to build your experience in increments. Whether it be via instructing or air taxi work initially then a turboprop job and finally, a jet job. This should keep the costs down as well. Be prepared to shift locations, countries if need be to get this experience.
A thousand hours in a King Air is worth more than some A levels.
There's evidence of a hiring slow down at the moment so going modular is a wise move.
As you've planned to get your flying qualifications via the modular route then A levels aren't as important. You do not need them to hold an ATPL. You need an ATPL.
Also, now you're 25 it's also not as important.Instead of pinning your hopes on a jet job straight away, plan to build your experience in increments. Whether it be via instructing or air taxi work initially then a turboprop job and finally, a jet job. This should keep the costs down as well. Be prepared to shift locations, countries if need be to get this experience.
A thousand hours in a King Air is worth more than some A levels.
There's evidence of a hiring slow down at the moment so going modular is a wise move.
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Just a question as the thread bears similar topic to a question I’ve been pondering.
I'm in a similar case to the chappy above: I have no A-levels but an advanced QNVQ in IT and on top of that a recently acquired MCSE 2003 (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer) qualification (compiled of 9 exams). Would this be advantageous to any prospective employers?
Cheers for any thoughts.
I'm in a similar case to the chappy above: I have no A-levels but an advanced QNVQ in IT and on top of that a recently acquired MCSE 2003 (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer) qualification (compiled of 9 exams). Would this be advantageous to any prospective employers?
Cheers for any thoughts.
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DJfingers: Out of interest which UK/Europe based airline are stipulating they require A levels / Degrees on top of their standard requirements of Frozen/Unfrozen ATPL plus hours on type?
Jon
Jon
PPRuNe Handmaiden
slackjack,
Occassionally a smaller operator might have a need for your computing skills in return for a shot at flying an aircraft, however, I wouldn't be using it as my main selling point. What will be useful is the maturity that comes from full time employment as well as studying.
Consider this course of action.
Eg, small flying club still uses paper booking sheets. You can offer your services for something you want. Leave with a few hours and a good word from the boss (eg, hour building for CPL etc). Contacts are gold. He/she recommends you to a mate who's running an air taxi operation. Repeat effort but now should be a paid position etc. You've made more contacts and now have a good understanding of the business and have some more hours. Now of course, they know someone in airline X and off you go.
So now you've used your computing skills to open a door or two and have gained flying hours etc. If I was in recruiting and someone in their mid 20s didn't have their A levels but had used their nouse to gain experience in the industry, I'd look at them very seriously.
Where it can fall down is online computerised forms that may kick out applications that require X as some form of screening. However, as you've made a contact or two on your way through, a word to the recruiting department can over come those little inconveniences.
Good luck.
General comment. *sigh* so many folks are in an almighty rush to the RHS of a jet. Relax, enjoy the aviation journey and have fun along the way. I've enjoyed my ride to the LHS of a bizjet, admittedly, I took the long way round but my log book's full of interesting and fascinating adventures.
Jet jobs are full of Autopilots, SID Airway STAR/radar vector ILS "flying".
*Note, I usually advocate staying in school and getting the highest grades possible but if someone's already left and is in gainful employment, then it may be a backward step. **if this was the USA, I'd say, get a degree**
Occassionally a smaller operator might have a need for your computing skills in return for a shot at flying an aircraft, however, I wouldn't be using it as my main selling point. What will be useful is the maturity that comes from full time employment as well as studying.
Consider this course of action.
Eg, small flying club still uses paper booking sheets. You can offer your services for something you want. Leave with a few hours and a good word from the boss (eg, hour building for CPL etc). Contacts are gold. He/she recommends you to a mate who's running an air taxi operation. Repeat effort but now should be a paid position etc. You've made more contacts and now have a good understanding of the business and have some more hours. Now of course, they know someone in airline X and off you go.
So now you've used your computing skills to open a door or two and have gained flying hours etc. If I was in recruiting and someone in their mid 20s didn't have their A levels but had used their nouse to gain experience in the industry, I'd look at them very seriously.
Where it can fall down is online computerised forms that may kick out applications that require X as some form of screening. However, as you've made a contact or two on your way through, a word to the recruiting department can over come those little inconveniences.
Good luck.
General comment. *sigh* so many folks are in an almighty rush to the RHS of a jet. Relax, enjoy the aviation journey and have fun along the way. I've enjoyed my ride to the LHS of a bizjet, admittedly, I took the long way round but my log book's full of interesting and fascinating adventures.
Jet jobs are full of Autopilots, SID Airway STAR/radar vector ILS "flying".
*Note, I usually advocate staying in school and getting the highest grades possible but if someone's already left and is in gainful employment, then it may be a backward step. **if this was the USA, I'd say, get a degree**
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Thanks Redsnail, i see how the back scratching could work there!
I am currently in full time employment with a company and have been obtaining my IT quals along side (bl00dy heavy going at times!). Good practice i suppose if and when i come to complete distant learning ATPLs.
Have been working since college (5 years) in IT so i'm hoping the two together will look good.
I am currently in full time employment with a company and have been obtaining my IT quals along side (bl00dy heavy going at times!). Good practice i suppose if and when i come to complete distant learning ATPLs.
Have been working since college (5 years) in IT so i'm hoping the two together will look good.
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Qualifications
Experience is what airlines want most. It makes you a safer bet. The FI route or other club involvement as per the previous comment is also sound advice.
As far as maths is concerned you should be fine if you can multiply by 3 and by 5 (or by 10 and halve it if its too tricky).
good luck
As far as maths is concerned you should be fine if you can multiply by 3 and by 5 (or by 10 and halve it if its too tricky).
good luck
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Thanks Guys
Thanks Guys
I think what i'll take from the replys is that my personal best bet is to build up experience doing air taxi work or similar. I've got a couple of questions on that if anyone can help:
1. Given that I get a JAA fATPL, can i only use this to do that air taxi work within europe, or is it transferrable to the US or Australia for example?
2. I've heard a lot about people building hours as an FI, but to me this would seem pretty far from commercial type flying, as you are going to be doing mainly circuit flying at one aerodrome - surely the airlines would prefer the experience to be in 'real' commercial flying (i.e. cross country)?
Cheers
Nic
I think what i'll take from the replys is that my personal best bet is to build up experience doing air taxi work or similar. I've got a couple of questions on that if anyone can help:
1. Given that I get a JAA fATPL, can i only use this to do that air taxi work within europe, or is it transferrable to the US or Australia for example?
2. I've heard a lot about people building hours as an FI, but to me this would seem pretty far from commercial type flying, as you are going to be doing mainly circuit flying at one aerodrome - surely the airlines would prefer the experience to be in 'real' commercial flying (i.e. cross country)?
Cheers
Nic
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I believe IFR single pilot requires 700 hours but nothing stopping you from doing other flying to build that up.
Your JAA CPL is good for JAA land. To go to Australia you will need visas and a conversion. It's relatively easy to convert to an Aus CPL. At the moment there is a shortage of experienced pilots in Australia.
In Paris at the mo, home in a few days.
Your JAA CPL is good for JAA land. To go to Australia you will need visas and a conversion. It's relatively easy to convert to an Aus CPL. At the moment there is a shortage of experienced pilots in Australia.
In Paris at the mo, home in a few days.
