Which type rating to choose?
Interesting discussion, if a little depressing observing the nastier side of human nature. Do some people not realise that there's a way of giving advice or encouragement to others without being aggressive? Do they remember any of the Human Performance syllabus? Can you imagine sharing a cockpit with these people!? 
The poor chap who started this thread is clearly aware of the overwhelmingly depressing arguments in favour and against buying a TR. Naturally he can't regulate the replies to his question, but there is no onus on anyone on this site to reply simply for the sake of attacking him and being plain rude. Unfortunately, Pprune is getting a bad reputation because of these people. IMHO if you feel so strongly against self funded TRs, start your own thread and rant to your heart's content. You won't be alone. There are plenty of people on Pprune who love to moan about their lot.
On the flip side, there are some people who have answered the question and shown encouragement. This is where Pprune can be an invaluable resource!!! From what I've heard from people in the industry you might want to consider either 737 or A320, preferably the latter, but perhaps it's worth going for something a little more exotic. Some would point to a few 757 jobs lurking around. It requires a little investigative effort, reading Flight International etc and internet surfing to find out what's what. Good luck on the job hunt.
The poor chap who started this thread is clearly aware of the overwhelmingly depressing arguments in favour and against buying a TR. Naturally he can't regulate the replies to his question, but there is no onus on anyone on this site to reply simply for the sake of attacking him and being plain rude. Unfortunately, Pprune is getting a bad reputation because of these people. IMHO if you feel so strongly against self funded TRs, start your own thread and rant to your heart's content. You won't be alone. There are plenty of people on Pprune who love to moan about their lot.
On the flip side, there are some people who have answered the question and shown encouragement. This is where Pprune can be an invaluable resource!!! From what I've heard from people in the industry you might want to consider either 737 or A320, preferably the latter, but perhaps it's worth going for something a little more exotic. Some would point to a few 757 jobs lurking around. It requires a little investigative effort, reading Flight International etc and internet surfing to find out what's what. Good luck on the job hunt.
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SSTRs
Having chatted recently to a fairly senior Pilot, directly involved with recruiting for a senior UK Charter airline he made some interesting observations.
Airlines obviously grab the best simulator slots on TR Courses and any remaining sim capacity is sold off to individuals wishing to purchase thier TRs.
These slots are often graveyard-shift times and he was not in any way convinced that (for example) 0300-0500 were the best hours to take on board the complexities of handling a modern airliner. He also wondered whether the calibre of instructor at this time of the morning was the best available to the sim.
In all he was very susupicious of people who had speculatively bought thier TRs especially when their log books had these late/early hours as take off times and would have treated such a candidate as an un-type rated pilot, requiring the full airline TR course.
Not sure how this effects all airlines but it certainly made me think twice about having a punt on a type rating.
Airlines obviously grab the best simulator slots on TR Courses and any remaining sim capacity is sold off to individuals wishing to purchase thier TRs.
These slots are often graveyard-shift times and he was not in any way convinced that (for example) 0300-0500 were the best hours to take on board the complexities of handling a modern airliner. He also wondered whether the calibre of instructor at this time of the morning was the best available to the sim.
In all he was very susupicious of people who had speculatively bought thier TRs especially when their log books had these late/early hours as take off times and would have treated such a candidate as an un-type rated pilot, requiring the full airline TR course.
Not sure how this effects all airlines but it certainly made me think twice about having a punt on a type rating.
Formerly HWD
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These slots are often graveyard-shift times and he was not in any way convinced that (for example) 0300-0500 were the best hours to take on board the complexities of handling a modern airliner.
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Can I just take a moment to echo Mike Hotels post, intelligence and objectivity are sadly lacking at times on here.
dontpressthat - you have no doubt observed by the 40 or so posts before mine this subject stirs quite a hurricane of "I know better than you....here's why".
Simplest way to look at this subject, draw up a table, one heading pro's other con's and start listing. Everyone's circumstances are different and you should apply your own financial and family commitments, career progression prospects and earning potential into the thought process.
A few things I would throw into the mix:
As for the chief pilot, he no doubt started flying in a very different environment compared to what exists now, gone are the days of airline sponsorships, paid type ratings for newbies and the generous benefits package. It would be interesting if he was zapped back 20 odd years to 250 hours/IR and replaced in 2008, see if his disdain and suspicion still fuelled his opinion.
We work in an industry that is aspirational, as a result there is great deal of competition and people who will go to a variety of different methods and means to facilitate this.
Only thing I would kind of agree with what the chief pilot said was that when finishing the TR you need some more training. You do the minimum amount of time by CAA dictate to allow you to get a tick in the box of most types of normal and non-normal procedures you will encounter in your chosen aircraft type. As a result the 60ish hours you do passed in the snap of finger and you know so little. Maybe insisting on a full new TR is extreme but certainly more time in the expensive sim to just feel comfortable would be prudent.
Also the instructors who work for SSTR companies also work with most of the major UK charter operators as well. The majority are either retired or still flying on the line. They are allowed to instruct on their days off in addition to their own instructional duties with their airline (if still employed).
dontpressthat - you have no doubt observed by the 40 or so posts before mine this subject stirs quite a hurricane of "I know better than you....here's why".
Simplest way to look at this subject, draw up a table, one heading pro's other con's and start listing. Everyone's circumstances are different and you should apply your own financial and family commitments, career progression prospects and earning potential into the thought process.
A few things I would throw into the mix:
- People on here tend to be polarised, take every story with a pinch of salt as I have seen first hand examples of Chinese whispers in the aviation community.
- You by no means have to follow the FI route, its not for everyone and therefore should not be thought of as a mandatory step after attaining your CPL/IR. Some people think it should be as is the progression up through the aviation ranks, again, not for everyone.
- From my experience I would not advocate a TR without a good chance of a job upon finishing, and how likely is the market going to be the same in 2/3 months in an industry that peaks and troughs daily.
As for the chief pilot, he no doubt started flying in a very different environment compared to what exists now, gone are the days of airline sponsorships, paid type ratings for newbies and the generous benefits package. It would be interesting if he was zapped back 20 odd years to 250 hours/IR and replaced in 2008, see if his disdain and suspicion still fuelled his opinion.
We work in an industry that is aspirational, as a result there is great deal of competition and people who will go to a variety of different methods and means to facilitate this.
Only thing I would kind of agree with what the chief pilot said was that when finishing the TR you need some more training. You do the minimum amount of time by CAA dictate to allow you to get a tick in the box of most types of normal and non-normal procedures you will encounter in your chosen aircraft type. As a result the 60ish hours you do passed in the snap of finger and you know so little. Maybe insisting on a full new TR is extreme but certainly more time in the expensive sim to just feel comfortable would be prudent.
Also the instructors who work for SSTR companies also work with most of the major UK charter operators as well. The majority are either retired or still flying on the line. They are allowed to instruct on their days off in addition to their own instructional duties with their airline (if still employed).
PPRuNe Handmaiden
7-11pm isn't grave yard. Not by a long shot.
11-3 is a challenge as there's also about an hour after that with debriefing points etc. Trouble is, you're so tired you don't want to listen. Likewise the 3-7am slot. Yuck...
11-3 is a challenge as there's also about an hour after that with debriefing points etc. Trouble is, you're so tired you don't want to listen. Likewise the 3-7am slot. Yuck...
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It'd be a good idea for you fATPL guys to keep checking the CTC ATP website literally every day. When they re-opened it in January of this year I believe it was open for about 4 days before that had had enough applications. No hints were given about it re-opening, one day it just did.
Good luck!
Good luck!
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In reply to proxus' question as to whether to take the B757 job, I'd say it sounds like a good possibility.
One thing I was told by many people in regard to aviation jobs was never to turn down anything. If you get the 757 rating you have six months of paid employment in front of you.
I spoke to someone recently who did roughly this and then took his rating abroad during the winter (central asia, and has returned with some colourful stories of flying in that part of the world). By going abroad he got enough hours to be considered an "experienced hand" on type (eligible for DEP entry to an airine) and now has a permanent contract here at home.
I heard something recently that really struck a chord with me. Here in the UK we had such a lousy summer last year that it is quite likely that many people will have already committed emotionally to a foreign, sunny holiday this year. Despite the credit crunch they'll go on holiday. But what about next year? My opinion would be to take the chance offered, who knows how long these chances will be around for.
A difficult, risky choice though.
One thing I was told by many people in regard to aviation jobs was never to turn down anything. If you get the 757 rating you have six months of paid employment in front of you.
I spoke to someone recently who did roughly this and then took his rating abroad during the winter (central asia, and has returned with some colourful stories of flying in that part of the world). By going abroad he got enough hours to be considered an "experienced hand" on type (eligible for DEP entry to an airine) and now has a permanent contract here at home.
I heard something recently that really struck a chord with me. Here in the UK we had such a lousy summer last year that it is quite likely that many people will have already committed emotionally to a foreign, sunny holiday this year. Despite the credit crunch they'll go on holiday. But what about next year? My opinion would be to take the chance offered, who knows how long these chances will be around for.
A difficult, risky choice though.
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Mech 500,
The main reason that a 777/747 rating won't be any use to a low hours pilot is that almost all long haul operations carry one captain and two first officers, the second FO being the relief pilot... when the captain is on his break, the relief FO sits in the LHS... technically as PIC and therefore needing an unfrozen ATPL i.e at least 1500 Hrs TT
The main reason that a 777/747 rating won't be any use to a low hours pilot is that almost all long haul operations carry one captain and two first officers, the second FO being the relief pilot... when the captain is on his break, the relief FO sits in the LHS... technically as PIC and therefore needing an unfrozen ATPL i.e at least 1500 Hrs TT
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747 with 200 tt hours.
i know a pilot of mallorca (spain) that did his type rating to b-747 with 200 tt hours and now he is flying a-340. amazing but true...............
