Which type rating to choose?

[flysi]

I paid for an A320 TR just over eighteen months ago having become dis-illusioned at the lack of airline interviews coming my way. Prior to making this decision, I'd spent eighteen months as an instructor, then a year as an air taxi pilot. I'd always shied away from paying for my own TR, yet in the end took the plunge as I saw it as the last throw of the dice to keep myself in the industry (I was 38 years old when I did the SSTR).

I would always recommend instructing as a way to build hours and experience. Once you have 700 hours, air taxi work will be open to you, and even more beneficial from an experience point of view.

I can empathise with your position but, in the present economic climate, I'd advise you NOT to do an SSTR. It's always a risky venture, but I'd say just too risky at this time.

I was fortunate, and landed an airline job almost immediately after completing the TR. Many others followed me at the same training institution, and have yet to get a job.

Whatever you do, don't give up. Keep yourself current. Everyone I worked with, as instructor or air taxi, has got there in the end. You will too.

Best of luck.

Flysi.

[Deano777]

dontpressthat

If you are to buy your own rating then all I can say is only do it if you can afford for it to go horribly wrong, I can put you in touch with 5 people who I know personally who it has gone wrong for, and gone wrong in a bad way, it won't buy you a job, but you already know this.
Just ask yourself whether you can afford to lose the money invested, if you can then go for your life, if not then please reconsider, only you can answer that.

Back to the rating, if it was I doing a rating, I would do a 320 rating, why? only a few minor reasons, a) personal choice, b) lots of operators in the UK and c) I wouldn't work for Ryanair if they were the last airline on this planet, so that rules out a 737NG rating

Good luck in whatever you decide

D777

[G-SPOTs Lost]

A plonker eh...? even though you have no idea of my situation.. well as you didnt ask...

33 yrs old, 300hrs £60k debt and I need to start earning enough to knock a hole in it ASAP.

Oh the Irony

So after assessing your situation Im sorry but your still a plonker, Its like buying a ferrari and not being able to afford to put fuel in it.

This job has slowed down in the last 12 weeks, cancelled orders, manufacturers offering to bring forward deliveries. Suggest you at least get booked onto a FI course because in three months when hiring almost stops altogether an FI course will be hot property, I also predict that there will no instructors jobs available in Quarter 3 2008.

This is the second time I've seen this downturn happen, two guys who I know who forewent the IR and did CPL/FI got conditional job offers and are in Jerez doing the IR/Multi with employers waiting.

So do you want to fly for a living or fly a 737 for a living, Im afraid saying "both" just doesnt work - you need to choose.

[dontpressthat]

Thanks for the positives boys and girls... all helpful stuff and certainly makes things clearer.

G-Spots, Your asessment skills clearly arnt up to much then are they..??

I said previously that it is not practical for ME to complete an FI at £7k (upto 2 months out of my current non flying job £3k) and then afford to live on peanuts for an indeterminable period.

However, Like I said, if I thought a TR would get me on the ladder in double quick time and earning a reasonable wedge I could arrange a short term loan... let me explain.
I estimate the cost of an FI and upto 2 months out of my current non flying job to be approx £10k, then I estimate a monthly income instructing of approx £1000.
After my rent/bills etc Id be left with about 20% of f'all.
A jet job with RYR for example appears to be worth in the region of £3k p/m after 500hrs therefore allowing me to repay a TR loan at around £1500 p/m.

So thats my life story and yes my back is up and yes that did make me bite.. this thread was a search for advice not a slating.

I suggest you keep your "oh the irony" remaks to yourself next time!!

DPT

[MartinCh]

dontpressthat,

let us know in one year's time how much more you owe.
Yes, you asked straightforward question.
But you are bluntly refusing to heed any advice from folks who know more (and not just who think who know more as there are too many of those).

btw, I'm towards rotary and will do planks as a side career, starting this year.
I'll do RW and FW PPL this and next year, fundraise longer, sweat blood working too much in too crappy jobs, count years until proper aviation career.
I'll get some dosh besides saving, but I'm not fortunate to have house to remortgage or put as security against huge loan. Maybe 10-20k when I build my credit history.. I'm way too itchy to fly and fly, get CPL etc, but I can't just blow everything on minimum TT for CPL, not having rotary FI or hours gained in the US on J1. I'd be plain crazy.

I'm familiar to similar issue of bloody expensive JAA rotary IR versus instructing up to 1000 TT and then applying for offshore job.
Yes, there were few guys over past year or two that 'fit the bill' and got hired with 250-300 rotary TT and JAA IR(H). Some and not too few, did the leap and whacked their face on the tarmac.

If there's some SOPs, minimum hour requirements, TR with no hours on type (ie to fulfill time requirements etc) could be way too pointless.

as I see it from outside the world of wannabe jet jockeys (taking out HUGE loans chasing the dream -flying-big bucks-cool image-whatever) but still in aviation with all the hurdles to jump over next years, well...

I won't slag anyone for damaging industry by SSTR.

You refuse "almost sure way" of turboprop TR as guys mentioned. yeah, they don't pay as much as heavy body FO salary. I bet they still pay more than instructing job. ME TP hours are much more valuable than PA28/C172 for interviews later on.

You can't afford to owe so much and earning too little as instructor, yet happy to slam extra £££ onto loan without guarantee of job. Any aviation job.

Can you afford to burn another wad of money for FI rating after jet TR?

What's wrong with part time FI and one full time job during week? Would pay the bills, gain hours, more networking and CV throwing time etc.

With what ideas did you start your training and what contingency plans did you make to keep afloat without striking jet FO job by miracle?

Most of all, you were refused by RYR once already. I don't see into it, but how many reapplying folks happen to be successful? Do you think JOC would do the trick if there was something about you they didn't fancy?
Do you just dismiss it by thinking there were too many better applicants at that time??

Regarding sponsorship schemes and A levels as minimum. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but looks to me you got only NVQ or GCSE. No Uni, no A level.
I don't think you'd have problems with Maths or Physics A level after all the theory for ATPL, but you also don't have time to get it.

So to put it very succintly, in order to get from financial s, there's a way - getting even deeper not listening to all well meant advice I've seen.

Those well meant posts are called reality check - are you familiar with the term?

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Sorry

For everybody who said give the guy a break then why bother coming on here seeking opinion and then moan when it doesnt suit.

I'm far from saying dont pay for your TR, its just that you've missed the boat and you are digging a deeper hole

You bet on black and it came up red (With 60k)

I said previously that it is not practical for ME to complete an FI at £7k (upto 2 months out of my current non flying job £3k) and then afford to live on peanuts for an indeterminable period.

Yuo have probably taken 12 months off your current non flying job at a cost of 60K to earn ..............Nothing.

You could pay 7k and be earning something

or be in a non flying job for an "indeterminable period"

Your training plan was flawed, no doubt you wanted to go straight to Big Jet from day 1 which is why you chose the qualifications you did i.e. fATPL

If you had chosen CPL/FI you would now be working with much less debt, if you had chosen CPL/FI and FAA CPL/IR which probably would have cost you half of what you spent. With the ability to be working on one of the 200 bizjets on the N & M register and you would be flying 6 days a week.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm having a go, its just like you use phrases like "peanuts" AND "I said previously that it is not practical for ME "

I find that irritating, because there are others out there earning peanuts who are living hand to mouth fighting off banks who arguably deserve a break more than you do. Why should you leapfrog into the very few remaining jet jobs over these people. The fact that you only will consider a jet job over other forms of flying to me shows a severe lack of commitment to aviation.

Any "Jet Job" employer will spot it from 100 yards.

Sorry

[G SXTY]

G-SPOTs Lost got there before I could. One of the risks of an SSTR is that it very clearly nails your colours to the mast. A candidate with a 737 or A320 rating on their licence will have a hard time convincing a turboprop interviewer that they've always dreamed of flying an ATR or Dash 8. The obvious conclusion is that you'll be off as soon as a jet job comes along, and while it's true that all TP operators bleed FOs to jet airlines, they still look for candidates who are most likely to stay.

In other words, an SSTR may well reduce the number of employers who would consider you. It's a massive gamble and I'd agree with the previous advice - only spend the money if you can afford to lose it.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

DPT If you want a jet job and are willing to pay for a type rating suggest you speak to Flightsafety's June Spencer and deal her up for a Citation C525 course. It gives you the CJ, CJ1, CJ2, CJ3 and there are a number of outfits using these such as EBJ, Airlink Scotland, Centreline as well as a number of other private operators, you could freelance and work for them all if you wanted.

With the present shortage of experienced guyts you could well be looking at a comand at 1500hrs and 1000 jet

You will get job with these as long as you dont have two heads.

$ is weak, £9k will get you a JAA/FAA course in the US - No Vat including flights and accomodation - course is 2 weeks (Short enough?)

[Tony Hirst]

DPT,

Rather than a pure speculative SSTR and guessing which type with incomplete and probably invalid information, the other options are CTC and possibly CAE.

CTC do not require A Levels for the ATP stream, but unfortunately it is closed at the moment, all that can be done is to monitor and wait. But this is probably the best way forward for a qualified CPL/MEIR.

CAE do an assessment which then opens up the possibility of airlines like Wizzair, Denim Air, Tyrolean, et al. Once accepted onto a TR you get a letter of intent (no guarantees) that if you pass you will be taken on (timing may be an issue too).

[Captain Oveur]

As a flight instructor I have to agree with some points in both camps and argue with others. I'm past 1000hrs now and feel like i'm stagnating. My pay is the same and my duties and responsabilities have increased. I'm tired and am trying to move on. I've looked at SSTR and discounted it simply because I feel that this is a denegration of our livelyhood. Time may come when I have to take that step.

I however see a number of people coming into this industry after having a rosy picture painted by some of the larger schools and the recruitment is now based on how much you can pay. When I suggest that they could instruct I get a look of disgust. True I never thought I would instruct but it has been the best 18 months of my life ( 2 years since I qualified) and I wouldn't change it for anything. I feel that those who have paid to get to the top of the tree have missed out, I guess in a way I pity them for not having the experience of sending a first solo or a student completing his PPL from a trial lesson.

So i'm now applying for all and sundry to get on the next step. It'll happen if you just have patience. Meanwhile i'm a professional pilot doing a professional job at my FTO regardless of my career aspirations.
Rant oveur

[tom775257]

Just a minor point about becoming an FI and improving your handling skills. Well, yes, it made me very good at flying PA-28s but compared to a fresh fATPL straight out of a jet MCC/JOC I was crap in comparison when it came to flying a jet sim.

I think you are probably at your best straight out of the IR, very little about jet flying is actually the handling.

[GASH !]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. Why don't you go for one type rating from Boeing and one from Airbus? Give yourself a chance man, you've come this far. Surely anyone willing to pay £25000 for a type rating could stretch to £50000 to improve their job chances?

Always lots of instructor bashing on pprune. I've never understood it really. As an FI I now earn around £40k a year, Monday to Friday 9-5. (The FI rating paid for itself within 3 months of starting work). I quite fancy flying something bigger than a light twin but can't find anything that pays anything remotely like it.

Airlines anyone, is it possible to make a living?

[tom775257]

GASH !

<<As an FI I now earn around £40k a year....but can't find anything that pays anything remotely like it.....Airlines anyone, is it possible to make a living?>>

While the 9-5 job is something I would love, certainly airlines pay a lot better. I just started with a new operator, out of the box as a new year 1 FO seniority wise will be 52k gross (with flight pay). With that there is also medical, pension, loss of licence etc. Yes, it is very possible to make a living as an airline pilot. Yes, I used to be an FI working 6 day weeks... it sucked!

[737 CL]

I'm type rated on 737 Classics, Do i have any chance to get a job in airline with 737 Ng? Such Ryanair ? Is it a good tyoe rating?

[mikehammer]

I find that irritating, because there are others out there earning peanuts who are living hand to mouth fighting off banks who arguably deserve a break more than you do. Why should you leapfrog into the very few remaining jet jobs over these people. The fact that you only will consider a jet job over other forms of flying to me shows a severe lack of commitment to aviation.

I am one of those being leapfrogged, currently half way through doing it "the hard way", now flying a turbo prop (great job, rotten money but not bothered...for now), having done aerial photo work to build the experience levels. However, although I am tempted to jump on the bandwagon and slate the SSTR people, I cannot: if I am honest, I thought about it myself, and for much the same reason as DPT. I didn't go for it in the end, mainly due to being short of about 5 grand, but I still think you are wrong, he's not a plonker, he's just looking for a way out, a way forward, and I don't blame him one little bit.

Yes, G SPOT is right, DPT's gamble hasn't paid off, but he is not alone, not by a long, long way.

DPT there is an end to this, and your turn will come, hang in there, and good luck.

[pablo2973]

hi from spain

I have gone through the same situation like yours ,520 tt, so i thought the answer was the TR ,Wrong!!!
If you have the money ,try to get someone to give you a chance if you finally get it, a simm assesment upon completing woul be nice ,I personally go for a new model like 320 no 757 that is on its way out .
Good luck

[Norrington]

It can be a wise investment to pay for the training yourself rather than just sit and wait. I fully understand your situation, you are getting older and you cannot live with your mom while working as an FI earning “peanuts”.
But buying an A320 or B737 isn't the solution, the odds are low that you will find a job with just 300TT and no hours on type= bad investment (unless you are lucky). If you buy line training as well the investment increases but the chances of getting a job afterwards is much higher, and then it could be worth the money.
A good investment is the one that gives you a job, and believe me, there are a lot of pilots with just a B737/A320 unemployed.
I suggest you first try the self sponsor routes with a job in the end.
Or take a look at the smaller aircraft like previous mentioned the ATR.
Or B737/A320 with hours on type.

Remember, there are no guarantees.

Good luck.

[avrodamo]

I think the real issue with the SSTR is that it's had it's day. I did the FI route and then after having no joy at all, paid for the 737 TR and it all happened. I ended up with a job, and turning another down! The big issue here is that this was 2 years ago. It's become a victim of it's own success. In my course at GECAT of 8 students on the 737 and 320, all of us were placed or obtained jobs within 6 months. People saw it working, everyone jumped on the bandwagon and everyone saw it as the way in. Result being there was a huge amount of type rated people with no experience as more and more people paid for SSTR.
What do we have now? Well we have people now paying for line training to make them stand out from the crowd of SSTR people. It makes you think what next? Paying for enough line flying to enable your ATPL to become unfrozen??
I know the flying club i instructed with is desperately short of instructors. Instructing does lead to the openings you desire. In the past 24 months they have lost 5 instructors to jet operators, and 4 to turboprop operators, and 3 of them were in their late 30's.
Save your cash. Do the FI course, even if you can only instruct part time it will help your chances greatly

[jessie05]

.

Good confidence boosting posts Avro and flyer guy.

I have decided to go down the FI route after fatpl and first revalidation of IR as just cant afford the cost or the risk of doing a TR at my level of hours and then still not getting a job due to being an oldie!

I reckon that once i reach the magic 1000 TT then perhaps the bizjet market may become interested especially if i have proven captaincy whilst teaching others for the PPL initially.

In fact I have even been granted an interview before even starting the FIC with a european FTO that have brand new G1000 equipped aircraft!! Very positive and really looking forward to it.

I just pray that there is still a good market for instructors when i finish in June!!

jess.

[proxus]

I really don't know if this will add anything to the discussion.

I did the FI and have been instructing for two years now. However, instructing doesn't pay my bills so I'd to work elswhere and instruct part time. (note I'm not in the UK). Apart from getting a TR on a TP and flying for two months (I was only hired for the summer and then the Ops went belly up) and Chieftain part time, instructing has been my main flying career.

I was also on the same band wagon as most of you guys. NO SSTR, except maybe for those who'd worked hard in the industry and did every possible 'normal' way to make themself visible to employers, but haven't gotten anywhere and maybe where getting to old.

Now I'm thirty y.o. with around 850 hrs, 200 TP and 250 ME/IR. However, I'm not feeling any wind in my back. Suddenly, few days ago, I got a phonecall. I have been offered to pay for B757 TR and get 6 months of flying as a contract. This really is some money that I haven't got but I got a supportive parent that will back me up regarding getting collateral for a loan.

So basically, I'm not saying that you shouldn't think about buying TR but with only 300 hrs and no prospect of getting the line training without paying, I would seriously think this through. I'm really torn as to whether I should do this, even if though I'll have a strong possibility of clearing the line training and gaining maybe around 300-400 hrs on the type. ( Maybe some of you guys could advice me too )

If not, I'll have to start looking for a ****ty job to go with my (lovely and wonderful) FI for the summer.