Back to the Question, so where are all the jobs then?
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Paying for Type Ratings is one thing, but paying for hours on type is just plane wrong (pun intended). If you are flying as an FO on a revenue flight with a payload in the back then you are simply doing another pilot out of a paid position. I know it 'makes sense' in terms of a business investment due to the potential return, but i still don't agree. In a business sense, as a business owner, i think it would be more lucrative to sell airline hour building packages to people!
It seems like aviation will soon be full of people who are in their jobs due to how much of their own, or their parent's, money they are willing to throw about to get a job. And no, i'm not bitter, i'll get there on the basis of my ability and yes i could buy a job if i wanted to. It's down to old fashioned things called integrity and conviction.
Rant over :-)
It seems like aviation will soon be full of people who are in their jobs due to how much of their own, or their parent's, money they are willing to throw about to get a job. And no, i'm not bitter, i'll get there on the basis of my ability and yes i could buy a job if i wanted to. It's down to old fashioned things called integrity and conviction.
Rant over :-)
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sorry if I sound so negative, but what a bunch of negative people in this forum. if you are so negative that there are no jobs, then you will never get a job. Air traveling is expanding, it is not like 4-5 years ago when the chances where little to secure a job (even to get a FI job was hard). Airbus and boeing are busy up to their ass to build airplanes, so is small bizjet operatores. I don't know why so many of you youngster want to jumb into the big ship and fly a 737 NG when just get out of flight school. Be patient, why not try turboprop or something else before flying the big one.
Just be patient and with the right attitude everthing will work out.
Just be patient and with the right attitude everthing will work out.
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HN1708, you too are correct!
i agree anonamous6, there are some negative people around.
I dont really mind what i get a job on really it just seems that 73NG pilots are hot property so thats why i suggested it.
i agree anonamous6, there are some negative people around.
I dont really mind what i get a job on really it just seems that 73NG pilots are hot property so thats why i suggested it.
Sawaya, I can not understand your reasoning. You say that you could go home and get a job straight on a 738 with paid rating and with T&Cs at least on par with any European carrier. Starting salary here in Orange land is 38,158 plus about 7,000 pounds flight pay which adds up to around 45,000 pounds p.a. Even with the current, horrible exchange rate 58,500 euros gross. Assuming that you pay less than 50% tax, you would still get 30,000 euros net p.a. in your country. According to you, you can buy a mansion with 30,000 euros, but yet, you claim that quality of life is low there. How does this add up?
Furthermore, if it is that easy for you to get a job back home, why don't you just go there for a year or two, get 1-2,000 jet hours and then move to Europe? Somehow, I feel you're not really painting an accurate picture of the situation.
The flag carriers still pay for ratings here in Europe.
Furthermore, if it is that easy for you to get a job back home, why don't you just go there for a year or two, get 1-2,000 jet hours and then move to Europe? Somehow, I feel you're not really painting an accurate picture of the situation.
The flag carriers still pay for ratings here in Europe.
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"There are some options in UK, mainly in Loganair I heard you could start as Cabin crew and then move in the cockpit when there is a free position"
Oh please.......where did you hear that absolute bul**it from????
Oh please.......where did you hear that absolute bul**it from????
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I know a Captain who does stints in recruitment for a very reputable jet operator who is disgusted that people are paying for airline hour building (his words, not mine), and is actively looking out for people who have 'bought their commercial experience' in order not to employ them!
Imagine being an FO and being told you are getting made redundant because a load of pilots are willing to pay to do your job. How pissed would you be?
Imagine being an FO and being told you are getting made redundant because a load of pilots are willing to pay to do your job. How pissed would you be?
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i meant the cost of living is much lower compared to Europe,all companies regardless whether they are national carriers or nor have to bond you for a type rating,if anyone asks you to pay for a rating up front i am not sure what will happen,because it has never happened before, chances are the company will be forced by the govt, to file for bankruptcy,and yes my situation does not make sense to anyone i love my daughter i cant be without her and hence i will stay in europe and cut my teeth here.
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Hi Dihaz,
sorry to answer you 5 days later,
here's my opinion about which type to do:
first of all, if you want to do 737, do them all for sure (I mean 300-900).
Which one to choose between 737 and 320 it's quite the typical 1 billion dollars question.
The fact is that there roughly 5000 737 and 1500 on order and something like 3000 flying 320 and 3000 on order (not complety sure about this figures). In Europe orders and flying planes are about 50% 737 and 50% Airbus 320, but if you exclude ryanair, there are slightly more companies with A320.
737 is more fun (especially classic), A320 flies for you 
...
Generally Airbus will get you some hundreds euros more per month
.
Anyway, back to your first post, you said you're only 19. You have time on your side, in your situation I would try to save a big amount of money, starting with a job on small planes.
Nobody will pay for your 737 type even if you do 2000hrs MEP but, if you go through small TPs and then big TPs and then small jets and so on, then you have some chances to have all your types payed or at least to pay for them when you already have a job to fly that type.
Consider also that there aren't many airline pilots of your age, especially on big planes, and many companies would more likely hire you when you are 22-23 instead of now... not saying that all the companies are like that but some are for sure.
Of course if you were 25-30, a SSTR + 100hrs on type could have been a reasonable solution, but you are more than 10 years ahead. I would keep this as an extreme measure, maybe if you can't get the job you want in, at least, 3 or 4 years.
And, once again, if you want a job with a small aereotaxi or similar company, study all the info you can get about the company and then try to go there with your application personally. You never know who's in the office that day...
Good luck!
CFM56-7B
sorry to answer you 5 days later,
here's my opinion about which type to do:
first of all, if you want to do 737, do them all for sure (I mean 300-900).
Which one to choose between 737 and 320 it's quite the typical 1 billion dollars question.
The fact is that there roughly 5000 737 and 1500 on order and something like 3000 flying 320 and 3000 on order (not complety sure about this figures). In Europe orders and flying planes are about 50% 737 and 50% Airbus 320, but if you exclude ryanair, there are slightly more companies with A320.
737 is more fun (especially classic)
, A320 flies for you ...Generally Airbus will get you some hundreds euros more per month
.Anyway, back to your first post, you said you're only 19. You have time on your side, in your situation I would try to save a big amount of money, starting with a job on small planes.
Nobody will pay for your 737 type even if you do 2000hrs MEP but, if you go through small TPs and then big TPs and then small jets and so on, then you have some chances to have all your types payed or at least to pay for them when you already have a job to fly that type.
Consider also that there aren't many airline pilots of your age, especially on big planes, and many companies would more likely hire you when you are 22-23 instead of now... not saying that all the companies are like that but some are for sure.
Of course if you were 25-30, a SSTR + 100hrs on type could have been a reasonable solution, but you are more than 10 years ahead. I would keep this as an extreme measure, maybe if you can't get the job you want in, at least, 3 or 4 years.
And, once again, if you want a job with a small aereotaxi or similar company, study all the info you can get about the company and then try to go there with your application personally. You never know who's in the office that day...
Good luck!
CFM56-7B
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MIKECR
I think he meant Eastern, (got his wires crossed), they were putting new starters in the back of the cabin whilst they waited for positions (apparently)
I think he meant Eastern, (got his wires crossed), they were putting new starters in the back of the cabin whilst they waited for positions (apparently)
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CFM56-7B, Thankyou very much for your insight into the whole thread in the first place.
Those were the kind of comments that I wanted people to talk about when i first wrote on pprune. But it seems that when ever someone writes about somthing on pprune its like an invitation for an argument and slagging match.
I thank you once again and please stay in touch via PM.
Cheers
Dihaz
Those were the kind of comments that I wanted people to talk about when i first wrote on pprune. But it seems that when ever someone writes about somthing on pprune its like an invitation for an argument and slagging match.
I thank you once again and please stay in touch via PM.
Cheers
Dihaz
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CFM56-7B, Thankyou very much for your insight into the whole thread in the first place.
You want to be impatient and you want a jet job to fall into your lap, but as has been said, you don't need to buy a rating and line hours.
Some people's attitude really beats me. Where has all this impatience come from? Why not be happy to work your way up?
Sure if you get offered a jet job take it! But just because you don't doesn't mean you should buy your way there.
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Nothing wrong with the 2 mentioned. They are perfectly well respected training organisations. Where the 'opinions' cme into conflict are when you take the next stage after training and license issue. I think you'll probably see what the majority of opinions are on people who are buying TR's and line hours with no job at the end of it
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Cost of a first job
OAA, OAT or whatever they are called now.....
I spoke to a fella who was fresh out of said establishment. Had spent £78,000gaining his CPL/IR. He was then putting himself through the Ryanair route in order to get a job. If successful, that puts the cost of zero hours to first stint in the RHS to well over £100,000
Did make him a bit sick when I told him that he could have saved £38,000 on getting the same licence and indeed the same job if he had went to my FTO initially. However he was still convinced that Oxford offered a superior product at the end of the day
I spoke to a fella who was fresh out of said establishment. Had spent £78,000gaining his CPL/IR. He was then putting himself through the Ryanair route in order to get a job. If successful, that puts the cost of zero hours to first stint in the RHS to well over £100,000
Did make him a bit sick when I told him that he could have saved £38,000 on getting the same licence and indeed the same job if he had went to my FTO initially. However he was still convinced that Oxford offered a superior product at the end of the day
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Dare I ask what your opinions are of organisations like OATS and CTC then? Essentially you could class their cadets as buying their way in
Going to OAA or CTC does not mean you are buying a job. CTC is different as you know. Unlike OAA not everyone can go because not everyone passes the selection, hence the people who go through are the ones who fulfil the partner airlines' requests, so CTC is irrelevant.
Sure, when going to OAA you have taken the decision that it will give you an advantage over others (and you are paying for that), much like you may decide when buying a TR or line hours. But the difference is that EVERYONE has to decide where to train whereas NOT EVERYONE chooses to get a TR and line hours. Hence you are buying your way to a job more so than others.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Look guys, ab-initio flight training and type-rating training is big bucks these days. Companies offering that training are simply meeting the demands by supplying a product. Joe Bloggs with, ahem, £100k burning a hole in his back pocket will pay these companies and henceforth you have yourself a new circle which continues to revolve and evolve. You will get more sleep at night and plan a much healthier existance (and plan of attack for getting yourself a job!) if you accept this fact, acknowledge that there are some out there better off than yourself, and move on. You won't change the situation by bleetin' on PPRuNe, you will just waste your time.
Before anyone starts in on me let me just say that I personally abhor the idea of a SSTR too but realise that to a large extent the struggling wannabe airline pilot community only has itself to blame for the situation it finds itself in today. The MCC used to be paid for by the airlines too but a trend developed whereby Applicant A wanted an advantage over Applicant B so went out and bought the certificate thus putting themselves ahead of the opposition. The type rating has sadly gone the same way, save the odd rare exception. There remains a small but honourable minority of aspiring pilot who do not jump into SSTR's due to lack of funds or simple self respect and who continue to work up through the lower rungs of flying jobs to arrive in the RHS of a jet aircraft as they approach their late twenties/early thirties, having mastered some of the prerequisites of command along the way, and even the planned multi-crew CPL cannot render this route redundant. They will still get jobs because employers will respect their attributes in a way money cannot buy the SSTR applicant. But the bottom line is: both parties will still be getting jobs.
You can analyse the situation all you like but the fact is this situation exists and whilst the world is round there will always be someone willing to pay more money to get ahead of you. Stick to your route, focus on your world and enjoy your journey. And as for those financially better off than you? Que essera, essera.
VFE.
Before anyone starts in on me let me just say that I personally abhor the idea of a SSTR too but realise that to a large extent the struggling wannabe airline pilot community only has itself to blame for the situation it finds itself in today. The MCC used to be paid for by the airlines too but a trend developed whereby Applicant A wanted an advantage over Applicant B so went out and bought the certificate thus putting themselves ahead of the opposition. The type rating has sadly gone the same way, save the odd rare exception. There remains a small but honourable minority of aspiring pilot who do not jump into SSTR's due to lack of funds or simple self respect and who continue to work up through the lower rungs of flying jobs to arrive in the RHS of a jet aircraft as they approach their late twenties/early thirties, having mastered some of the prerequisites of command along the way, and even the planned multi-crew CPL cannot render this route redundant. They will still get jobs because employers will respect their attributes in a way money cannot buy the SSTR applicant. But the bottom line is: both parties will still be getting jobs.
You can analyse the situation all you like but the fact is this situation exists and whilst the world is round there will always be someone willing to pay more money to get ahead of you. Stick to your route, focus on your world and enjoy your journey. And as for those financially better off than you? Que essera, essera.
VFE.
Last edited by VFE; 16th Mar 2008 at 22:41.