Is this the logical thing to do...
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Is this the logical thing to do...
Hey guys - Ive just been having a think about the practicality of becoming a self funded frozen ATPL....and i'm scaring myself because at present, I'm having trouble convincing myself that trying to get the license without part sponsorship is simply a pretty stupid idea...
At the moment, having worked with pilots who are all self funded, it seems that unless I have a big bag of money that I don't mind spending - getting myself into huge amounts of debt for a poorly paid flying job (in comparison with what you're investing into the career) would leave me with debts that would be pretty hard to clear for the next 11 or so years...
So I'd appreciate the advice of any experienced pilots (i.e who have spent the money and who are now flying be it with a bigger commercial carrier or smaller photography type flying/career instructor etc)
Is it worth the debt ridden life or should I just stick to a job I quite like and keep flying as a hobby whilst just trying for the partial sponsored/tagged schemes that pop up every now and then?
Many thanks
Ian (in logical mode)
At the moment, having worked with pilots who are all self funded, it seems that unless I have a big bag of money that I don't mind spending - getting myself into huge amounts of debt for a poorly paid flying job (in comparison with what you're investing into the career) would leave me with debts that would be pretty hard to clear for the next 11 or so years...
So I'd appreciate the advice of any experienced pilots (i.e who have spent the money and who are now flying be it with a bigger commercial carrier or smaller photography type flying/career instructor etc)
Is it worth the debt ridden life or should I just stick to a job I quite like and keep flying as a hobby whilst just trying for the partial sponsored/tagged schemes that pop up every now and then?
Many thanks
Ian (in logical mode)
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The "is it worth it?" question is only one that you can answer.
To put things into perpective, if you need to get in to debt to do it, it would be worth looking into the exact figures, ie, how much you could expect in terms of take home salary and how much it will actually cost to service that debt.
I saved for a significant amount of the costs of my fATPL before training so I can only relate anecdotal stories from friends/ colleagues about serious debt. Eg, at the airline I am at, as FOs we take home approx £3,000 per month. I understand the rule of thumb is £100 of debt repayment per month for every £10,000 you borrow, so even if you borrow £50,000 you'd still be looking at a reasonable salary.
Of course, at the other end of the scale, you could be flight instructing for a year or two post qualification. As fine a job as that is, it doesn't pay that well and you then might struggle with the debt finance.
I've only been flying professionally for two years so I'm still in the honeymoon period with the job, so if asked if its worth it my answer would simply be "hell, yeah!" but like I said, my debt levels aren't as big as most.
Hopefully you'll get plenty of replies with both positive and negative experiences that can show you both sides of the coin.
To put things into perpective, if you need to get in to debt to do it, it would be worth looking into the exact figures, ie, how much you could expect in terms of take home salary and how much it will actually cost to service that debt.
I saved for a significant amount of the costs of my fATPL before training so I can only relate anecdotal stories from friends/ colleagues about serious debt. Eg, at the airline I am at, as FOs we take home approx £3,000 per month. I understand the rule of thumb is £100 of debt repayment per month for every £10,000 you borrow, so even if you borrow £50,000 you'd still be looking at a reasonable salary.
Of course, at the other end of the scale, you could be flight instructing for a year or two post qualification. As fine a job as that is, it doesn't pay that well and you then might struggle with the debt finance.
I've only been flying professionally for two years so I'm still in the honeymoon period with the job, so if asked if its worth it my answer would simply be "hell, yeah!" but like I said, my debt levels aren't as big as most.
Hopefully you'll get plenty of replies with both positive and negative experiences that can show you both sides of the coin.
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Why don't you 'stick to a job that you like' and do that full time. During weekends and holidays, you can work your way towards PPL, CPL, ATPL and IR. After 4 or so years, you will have all the qualifications and should be debt free (depending on your lifestyle) and you can then embark on a new career in aviation.
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Do not bother, you will only get urself shafted by the industry, CAA, flying schools and airlines alike. There are thousands of un-employed 250hrs pilots in europe. It has been shown on another thread that there are only jobs available for about half the people who get fatpls, meaning that HALF the people who do commercial flight training never end up with a flying job. Imagine that, you spend 40 grand of ur own money/ get into 40 grand's worth of debt for something that never actually happens, your chances of getting a job ruined by the next little prick who's dad is a training captain or who decides to buy their way into a job. Save urself the hassle and live a normal life. If I could go back to the days before I took up flying knowing what I know now I would NEVER have done it.
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Artie Fufkin - it certainly sounds like its worth it for you and good luck to you but I fear you paint an overly rosey picture! Using this site http://http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/Conte...lculators.aspx shows you must be earning a little over £51,000 a year to take home in which case you are doing very, very nicely for a year 2 FO.
Jet FOs at my company can expect a take home pay of a little over £2000 and turboprop FOs around £1500. Now things look decidedly less rosey. I know people struggling to pay the interest alone, in the region of £500 a month for their loans before tyring to pay rent, bills, food and have a life...
I also personally think paying back £100 a month per £10,000 of debt is madness because it would take 11 years and cost at least £9000 extra in interest. Its much better to hammer debt as much as you can. I put 40% of my take home into debt to try to clear it in 2 years. That way I can enjoy myself without feeling guilty in 2 years rather than worrying about being in debt for ever and paying through the nose in interest.
A good site for looking at the cost of debt is http://www.whatsthecost.com/snowball.aspx?country=uk
A final point, while I love flying a jet up high I do sometimes long for the days when going flying in a C152 from a grass stip after work was the be all and end all. Now I'm too tired to think about that when I get home from the day job flying airliners. Its quite sureal I get home and the girlfriend hasn't even left the house while I've just flown hundreds of miles to another country and back.
Vito - you sound very bitter.
Jet FOs at my company can expect a take home pay of a little over £2000 and turboprop FOs around £1500. Now things look decidedly less rosey. I know people struggling to pay the interest alone, in the region of £500 a month for their loans before tyring to pay rent, bills, food and have a life...
I also personally think paying back £100 a month per £10,000 of debt is madness because it would take 11 years and cost at least £9000 extra in interest. Its much better to hammer debt as much as you can. I put 40% of my take home into debt to try to clear it in 2 years. That way I can enjoy myself without feeling guilty in 2 years rather than worrying about being in debt for ever and paying through the nose in interest.
A good site for looking at the cost of debt is http://www.whatsthecost.com/snowball.aspx?country=uk
A final point, while I love flying a jet up high I do sometimes long for the days when going flying in a C152 from a grass stip after work was the be all and end all. Now I'm too tired to think about that when I get home from the day job flying airliners. Its quite sureal I get home and the girlfriend hasn't even left the house while I've just flown hundreds of miles to another country and back.
Vito - you sound very bitter.
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Ian, I am in the same boat as you mate. I have just over 420hrs AUS CPL and have not flown for a while due to the fact I recently had a couple of children. Whilst the children are fantastic and everything to me
, it does not pay the bills. I have had some really good jobs and the pay was fantastic (Non aviation), but I still have that itch.....a really big one. That is why I'm going to take the "Big" financial jump and take the financed route
YEAH I KNOW, I have heard all the horror stories from other pilot friends but I'm getting on a bit now (34) and feel the need to fly again. I could study all the various courses individualy but by the time I finish so will my life
so I'm gonna get everything quick-ish all in one go and I think that should enhance my employment prospects. I'm not so worried about the repayments as my wife works too and I think in the end it will be a small price to pay in the long run. I'm with you mate, just go for it!!
, it does not pay the bills. I have had some really good jobs and the pay was fantastic (Non aviation), but I still have that itch.....a really big one. That is why I'm going to take the "Big" financial jump and take the financed route
YEAH I KNOW, I have heard all the horror stories from other pilot friends but I'm getting on a bit now (34) and feel the need to fly again. I could study all the various courses individualy but by the time I finish so will my life so I'm gonna get everything quick-ish all in one go and I think that should enhance my employment prospects. I'm not so worried about the repayments as my wife works too and I think in the end it will be a small price to pay in the long run. I'm with you mate, just go for it!!
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Ian, my advice to you is forecast, forecast, forecast! your savings that is. And do things with your life that will increase your earnings (including changinge job! 
). It really is as simple as that! Damned I might be for saying this but your job doesn't have a particularly good reputation for it's potential earnings!
I gained my PPL at 18 with a small loan from Dad (why lie about it hey? but have since paid it back). At 19, the only thing I ever thought about was being around planes. I applied for a ground ops assistant job at City and got rejected. I was blown back but this one rejection in my life turned out to be the biggest blessing of my life.
Shortly after that, I had a go at the IT industry. Year on year my earnings increased (partly because I jumped from employer to employer). I saved (not religiously) but with my final goal in mind. Then I switched to contracting and have never looked back since.
The result? All of my training is being funding completely off my own back. I'm a home owner, married with kids. All at the grand old age of 26 and will be applying to airlines early next year with scope for paying for a TR if it comes down to it
I would not have been able to achieve this if I was earning between £17-25k a year satisfying the kid in me. I know working with computers isn't everyones cup of tea but it don't take a particularly clever person to work in the IT or any other high paying industry for that matter. I've worked with numpties in pretty much every job. All it requires is a little 'go get it' attitude.
Aside from giving you an insight into how I've done it. I've met a several very stable (in life) pilots including a relative who I didn't even know existed up until 3 years ago! who also trained debt free by starting off in other high flying careers. There must be a lesson in there somewhere. It's a simple lesson, want to save enough? Then earn more! Earning more is totally within ones own control as I have and I'm sure others on here have discovered.
). It really is as simple as that! Damned I might be for saying this but your job doesn't have a particularly good reputation for it's potential earnings!I gained my PPL at 18 with a small loan from Dad (why lie about it hey? but have since paid it back). At 19, the only thing I ever thought about was being around planes. I applied for a ground ops assistant job at City and got rejected. I was blown back but this one rejection in my life turned out to be the biggest blessing of my life.
Shortly after that, I had a go at the IT industry. Year on year my earnings increased (partly because I jumped from employer to employer). I saved (not religiously) but with my final goal in mind. Then I switched to contracting and have never looked back since.
The result? All of my training is being funding completely off my own back. I'm a home owner, married with kids. All at the grand old age of 26 and will be applying to airlines early next year with scope for paying for a TR if it comes down to it
I would not have been able to achieve this if I was earning between £17-25k a year satisfying the kid in me. I know working with computers isn't everyones cup of tea but it don't take a particularly clever person to work in the IT or any other high paying industry for that matter. I've worked with numpties in pretty much every job. All it requires is a little 'go get it' attitude.
Aside from giving you an insight into how I've done it. I've met a several very stable (in life) pilots including a relative who I didn't even know existed up until 3 years ago! who also trained debt free by starting off in other high flying careers. There must be a lesson in there somewhere. It's a simple lesson, want to save enough? Then earn more! Earning more is totally within ones own control as I have and I'm sure others on here have discovered.
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Hey guys - some good replies cheers.
The reason why I ask this is because at present I'm paying off an 8 grand loan... now when you compare it to how much I'd potentially have to borrow for say, ground school....its nothing, yet I still find it difficult to finance hour building, together with keeping up rent (which is why i had to move home to gain some stability) and going to see the girlfriend....
I also do not have my own house to borrow against, so I think that this might be a problem... but on the other side of the coin as what was mentioned, I'm only on £15k so all of this stems from my wage.
Ideal line... ya reckon a four year time plan is realistic? I'd be interested to hear what kind of plan you think would work....
I'm really wanting to get a plan on the go, 23 years old and I wanna get in there whilst i'm still young!!
Cheers guys
The reason why I ask this is because at present I'm paying off an 8 grand loan... now when you compare it to how much I'd potentially have to borrow for say, ground school....its nothing, yet I still find it difficult to finance hour building, together with keeping up rent (which is why i had to move home to gain some stability) and going to see the girlfriend....
I also do not have my own house to borrow against, so I think that this might be a problem... but on the other side of the coin as what was mentioned, I'm only on £15k so all of this stems from my wage.
Ideal line... ya reckon a four year time plan is realistic? I'd be interested to hear what kind of plan you think would work....
I'm really wanting to get a plan on the go, 23 years old and I wanna get in there whilst i'm still young!!
Cheers guys
