easyJet Airbus 319 LGW F/O
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My guess would be that around 1/5 of those 920 would settle for anything less than an airline job. That 1/5 therefore will end up within some small scale commercial operation. With the remaining competing against the 750 or so from the previous year who are still waiting to get employed and likewise for them....you get the picture.
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What there has never been a shortage of is 200hr newbies wanting a job on a shiny new jet.
The shortage for airlines is generally experienced FO's. In the past few years that has been to some extent generated by the rapid expansion of the LCC's. As soon as FO's become experienced they move to the LHS. I believe 2700hrs in the minimum time for command now in Ryanair as an example.
That said some do get lucky as the airlines need keep the pyramid of experience in the company balanced.
So when taking people on ideally the airline wants someone type rated and experienced on one of their aircraft types - thus minimal training required and minimal training risk. After that they want somebody with commercial airline experience, after that somebody with IFR/Multi time (air taxi etc). After that ME/IR instructors, after that CPL instructors, after that the likes of me (PPL instructor), after that 200 hr CPL/IR.
There is a shortage of Instructors though. What is driving it is fewer people are considering it as an option to gain experience and secondly the money is cr*p.
But it's a start. Instructing is challenging and rewarding. You will learn from it, and your flying will improve. And I am 6 hours closer to that first airline job tonight then I was on Friday night. What have you done this weekend to get closer to living that dream...
The shortage for airlines is generally experienced FO's. In the past few years that has been to some extent generated by the rapid expansion of the LCC's. As soon as FO's become experienced they move to the LHS. I believe 2700hrs in the minimum time for command now in Ryanair as an example.
That said some do get lucky as the airlines need keep the pyramid of experience in the company balanced.
So when taking people on ideally the airline wants someone type rated and experienced on one of their aircraft types - thus minimal training required and minimal training risk. After that they want somebody with commercial airline experience, after that somebody with IFR/Multi time (air taxi etc). After that ME/IR instructors, after that CPL instructors, after that the likes of me (PPL instructor), after that 200 hr CPL/IR.
There is a shortage of Instructors though. What is driving it is fewer people are considering it as an option to gain experience and secondly the money is cr*p.
But it's a start. Instructing is challenging and rewarding. You will learn from it, and your flying will improve. And I am 6 hours closer to that first airline job tonight then I was on Friday night. What have you done this weekend to get closer to living that dream...
Last edited by timzsta; 23rd Sep 2007 at 20:30.
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At the risk of getting a severe bollocking off the likes of WWW and Scroggs, could I be so cheeky as to ask for a few stats regarding (specifically) the integrated route flaunted by Cabair, OAT, CTC and FTE (the big schools in general). The reason I ask is because I have researched this matter quite a bit and for the life of me I cannot find any 'negative' info.
All the people I have spoken to (schools included, and yes I know - it’s like taking advice from the devil), instructors, graduates etc have stated that for the most part (and it seems almost 100%) people are finding jobs very soon after graduation and VERY few not finding a job.
Like I said, I was (still am) rather sceptical of this info, but could anyone (esp WWW) shed any light onto what might be the ‘true’ numbers behind integrated students graduating and find jobs and those that do not.
Thanks a bunch, w.
All the people I have spoken to (schools included, and yes I know - it’s like taking advice from the devil), instructors, graduates etc have stated that for the most part (and it seems almost 100%) people are finding jobs very soon after graduation and VERY few not finding a job.
Like I said, I was (still am) rather sceptical of this info, but could anyone (esp WWW) shed any light onto what might be the ‘true’ numbers behind integrated students graduating and find jobs and those that do not.
Thanks a bunch, w.
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Define 'job' - A lot of schools announce sucessful placements with Ryanair, but that's a bit different than say a place at bmi or BA.
A better question would be to ask the schools for raw figures, or a percentage in employment, and the average time from pass to job, if they have that sort of data available. A school can claim they have people in jobs, but what if they took 6 years to find it?
I believe the only school that can claim near 100% placement is CTC.
Horgy
A better question would be to ask the schools for raw figures, or a percentage in employment, and the average time from pass to job, if they have that sort of data available. A school can claim they have people in jobs, but what if they took 6 years to find it?
I believe the only school that can claim near 100% placement is CTC.
Horgy
I challenge anyone to rival my extensive collection of hotel pens. Particularly my 'Ramada' section which comprehensively spans 4 generations of type including the rarely seen 'blue inked twisty'..
As for schools stats - fact is they don't know themselves. Most leave the school without finding a job. When they do maybe 6 or 12 months later there's very little reason to inform the school of the fact.
My guess would be of the 100 graduates from Kiddlington, Bedfordshire or Andalucia about 50 find airline jobs within the first 6 months. 20 others find some kind of flying employment and around 30 die a cold lonely death in their own beds having never been paid to fly anything for anyone.
Cheers
WWW
As for schools stats - fact is they don't know themselves. Most leave the school without finding a job. When they do maybe 6 or 12 months later there's very little reason to inform the school of the fact.
My guess would be of the 100 graduates from Kiddlington, Bedfordshire or Andalucia about 50 find airline jobs within the first 6 months. 20 others find some kind of flying employment and around 30 die a cold lonely death in their own beds having never been paid to fly anything for anyone.
Cheers
WWW
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Ok, here goes...
I have read this thread with great interest as I too shall be blindly handing over a significant sum of cash to a certain integrated school close to a rather famous university very shortly and would like to offer a couple of (hopefully) innocuous remarks.
I'm sure anybody who has researched any time into the various training options available will have stumbled across the employment statistics on the OAT website. Whilst I am not so naive as to suggest that all the employment successes for this year are necessarily all graduates from this year, the fact that there are consistent levels of employment over 3 years seems to suggest a healthy level of employment success. Furthermore, on the OAT forum, it is stated that the number of integrated students trained per year is capped at 220 and that the cadets (thomas cook et al) are not included in the statistics (but are included in the 220 trained). Thus, if we assume that the majority of the employments occur in a reasonable period of time (is that not a fair assumption?) the numbers seem to suggest a somewhat more positive outlook than might have been suggested previously.
Another point that I have often thought about is this. Whilst I agree that the schools themselves will prefer to hide negative statisitics under the carpet why is it that, if so many people are forking out such significant sums of money and ending up in Tescos, they aren't shouting about it? Sure there are the odd people who crop up on this site that have a hunch and haven't got to where they thought they would get to, but why aren't there more?
I'm sure I have been considering this through a pair of very fetching rose-tinted glasses (and do please let me know if they don't suit), and do not get me wrong - I am more than realistic about the pitfalls and risks associated with entering this career - but I do believe that a blanket approach to the entire training industry is a somewhat unhelpful way to assess training risk.
Send on the firing squad....
p.s. when I went to visit the bank manager at the HSBC, he not only had unblemished praise for OAT (don't forget I was already signed up so absolutely no need for the sales pitch) but was adamant that the vast majority of graduates on the HSBC books who where dutifully paying back their loans were in flying jobs. An important point he also raised that I think is imperative was that, in his experience, those who weren't were as a result of their own faults. This really ought not to be overlooked when considering the rather alarming probabilities mentioned elsewhere on this thread!
I have read this thread with great interest as I too shall be blindly handing over a significant sum of cash to a certain integrated school close to a rather famous university very shortly and would like to offer a couple of (hopefully) innocuous remarks.
I'm sure anybody who has researched any time into the various training options available will have stumbled across the employment statistics on the OAT website. Whilst I am not so naive as to suggest that all the employment successes for this year are necessarily all graduates from this year, the fact that there are consistent levels of employment over 3 years seems to suggest a healthy level of employment success. Furthermore, on the OAT forum, it is stated that the number of integrated students trained per year is capped at 220 and that the cadets (thomas cook et al) are not included in the statistics (but are included in the 220 trained). Thus, if we assume that the majority of the employments occur in a reasonable period of time (is that not a fair assumption?) the numbers seem to suggest a somewhat more positive outlook than might have been suggested previously.
Another point that I have often thought about is this. Whilst I agree that the schools themselves will prefer to hide negative statisitics under the carpet why is it that, if so many people are forking out such significant sums of money and ending up in Tescos, they aren't shouting about it? Sure there are the odd people who crop up on this site that have a hunch and haven't got to where they thought they would get to, but why aren't there more?
I'm sure I have been considering this through a pair of very fetching rose-tinted glasses (and do please let me know if they don't suit), and do not get me wrong - I am more than realistic about the pitfalls and risks associated with entering this career - but I do believe that a blanket approach to the entire training industry is a somewhat unhelpful way to assess training risk.
Send on the firing squad....
p.s. when I went to visit the bank manager at the HSBC, he not only had unblemished praise for OAT (don't forget I was already signed up so absolutely no need for the sales pitch) but was adamant that the vast majority of graduates on the HSBC books who where dutifully paying back their loans were in flying jobs. An important point he also raised that I think is imperative was that, in his experience, those who weren't were as a result of their own faults. This really ought not to be overlooked when considering the rather alarming probabilities mentioned elsewhere on this thread!
You can rest assured that any figures used by a schools marketing department represent the VERY best case statistic.
I used to be an instructor in Jerez and have friends who have instructed in Oxford and Cabair. I KNOW that quite a few people don't ever make it despite writing the big cheques. I can't challenge the schools own figures but they don't tally with my experience in the business.
Times have been exceptionally good in recent years though so the figures may be quite high.
Good luck,
WWW
I used to be an instructor in Jerez and have friends who have instructed in Oxford and Cabair. I KNOW that quite a few people don't ever make it despite writing the big cheques. I can't challenge the schools own figures but they don't tally with my experience in the business.
Times have been exceptionally good in recent years though so the figures may be quite high.
Good luck,
WWW
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I'm sorry mr WWW, but I have to take issue with a number of your points.
What exactly do you mean by 'You can rest assured that any figures used by a schools marketing department represent the VERY best case statistic'? Surely you are either employed or not and not in the Schrodinger state of either at the same time? I really think that such a bold remark requires some sort of explanation.
Maybe it's just me but it seems that you have an axe to grind with the integrated camp. Having suggested that the figures 'represent the VERY best case statistic' you fail to substantiate this with any evidence and then fall back to the rather limp excuse that employment has been rather positive recently. I'm struggling to see where this is going.
I appreciate that you are in a far more knowledgeable position than myself on this topic but I find your arguments less than persuasive.
Just my thoughts.
What exactly do you mean by 'You can rest assured that any figures used by a schools marketing department represent the VERY best case statistic'? Surely you are either employed or not and not in the Schrodinger state of either at the same time? I really think that such a bold remark requires some sort of explanation.
Maybe it's just me but it seems that you have an axe to grind with the integrated camp. Having suggested that the figures 'represent the VERY best case statistic' you fail to substantiate this with any evidence and then fall back to the rather limp excuse that employment has been rather positive recently. I'm struggling to see where this is going.
I appreciate that you are in a far more knowledgeable position than myself on this topic but I find your arguments less than persuasive.
Just my thoughts.
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Not that im jumping in WWW's shoes here, but I thought it would be clear that these companies, whether integrated or modular, are businesses. As such they try to create the best image of themselves in order to attract new business. That's why you should go on the figures that the schools provide alone.
horgy
horgy
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
I had a little giggle when I saw FMSData's post saying eagerly he will follow his dreams of becoming an "Airline Pilot." Not so long ago that was me, however getting out of bed this morning at 4.30 I felt less an Airline Pilot and more an airline pilot! Best of luck with the training and job seeking.
sr
sr
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Thanks SR! I've learn't alot on here and am grateful for the continued information. I will try hard to get great results on my exams and hope to get recommended to BA on the SSP! Who knows.
FMS
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OATS as an example
I can only speak as a Graduate of OATS APP from over 2 years ago.
Of the ten or so on my course a couple dropped out of the course due to either outside pressures (kids) or lack of study leading to failing exams or tests.
Of those nine who finished the course three of them ended up paying for their own type rating to secure a job.
The rest got jobs with airlines willing to pay the type rating and bond them. Two of us got turoprop not jet jobs and in my case that was well over a year after Graduating (probably because I'm an old fart!)
All of us got a flying job. In most cases this was due to OATS referring us, that referral is really worth its weight in gold - in fact I doubt I would have got a job without it despite grades above 85% and passes in everything first time/series due to my age (36 on Graduating)
I do know of a couple of people from the course before us who still haven't got jobs, although I gather one of those has now decided to pursue music as a career.
Hope this is helpful.
Desk-pilot
Of the ten or so on my course a couple dropped out of the course due to either outside pressures (kids) or lack of study leading to failing exams or tests.
Of those nine who finished the course three of them ended up paying for their own type rating to secure a job.
The rest got jobs with airlines willing to pay the type rating and bond them. Two of us got turoprop not jet jobs and in my case that was well over a year after Graduating (probably because I'm an old fart!)
All of us got a flying job. In most cases this was due to OATS referring us, that referral is really worth its weight in gold - in fact I doubt I would have got a job without it despite grades above 85% and passes in everything first time/series due to my age (36 on Graduating)
I do know of a couple of people from the course before us who still haven't got jobs, although I gather one of those has now decided to pursue music as a career.
Hope this is helpful.
Desk-pilot
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I must say...
...that this thread makes me think even more that anyone training to be an airline pilot now, simply lacks the judgement ever to do the job properly.
Anyone of sound judgement wouldn't gamble enormous debt against the chance of a worthwhile flying career!!!
Anyone of sound judgement wouldn't gamble enormous debt against the chance of a worthwhile flying career!!!
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Just to answer the original question, 3 ways into easyjet
1) CTC cadet
2) TRSS
3) Direct entry
with only 200 hours you would only be eligible for CTC cadet which means going through their selection scheme. 6 months on about £1000, then onto easy pay scale.
TRSS, if you have some turboprop or small jet experience, (figures change but i think it is about 500 hours multi crew) starting on £39780, after 5 years £44,780 (£5000 a year reduction to pay off the training "loan" which is taken out in your name)
Direct entry with medium or heavy jet expereince, start on £44780 (£72000) as captain.
Also sector pay around £10 per sector depending on distance.
pay to increase soon with pay deal negotiated(about 4%)
Good luck with your career choice, yes not everyone gets through, but if it is something you really want to do and don't try, you could regret it for the rest of your career.
(then when you achieve your goal, you might find getting up at 4.00am for five days in a row not as much fun as youi thought)
Best Wishes
FF
1) CTC cadet
2) TRSS
3) Direct entry
with only 200 hours you would only be eligible for CTC cadet which means going through their selection scheme. 6 months on about £1000, then onto easy pay scale.
TRSS, if you have some turboprop or small jet experience, (figures change but i think it is about 500 hours multi crew) starting on £39780, after 5 years £44,780 (£5000 a year reduction to pay off the training "loan" which is taken out in your name)
Direct entry with medium or heavy jet expereince, start on £44780 (£72000) as captain.
Also sector pay around £10 per sector depending on distance.
pay to increase soon with pay deal negotiated(about 4%)
Good luck with your career choice, yes not everyone gets through, but if it is something you really want to do and don't try, you could regret it for the rest of your career.
(then when you achieve your goal, you might find getting up at 4.00am for five days in a row not as much fun as youi thought)
Best Wishes
FF
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but if it is something you really want to do and don't try, you could regret it for the rest of your career.
