Sigmar/My Travel A320 self funding

[SinBin]

YYZ you have no idea what you're on about! I value money too and who's in debt here? It's a business decision. This scheme costs £32K, so I would be earning £7-10K a year flying a Bus? I don't think so!!

Go laugh, I'll be laughing at you next year! Good luck with the spam cans!

[nuclear weapon]

Originally Posted by YYZ_Instructor

The only place I have seen "pilots", and i say that loosely as most don't have the hours to be considered professional yet, that would actually spend that kind of money on training is only seen in Europe and I can't understand why you would put yourself in such a big debt when you will make 1/3 to 1/4 of what you spent on a type rating per year. That is insane! And sometimes it makes me laugh.....seriously.
I had the money to pay for it, yet I value my money as I work hard for it and I didn't need a type rating to get through and it wasn't luck! All you do is build your hours in steps. Oh let me repeat it incase some wannabe pilots didn't get that....Steps!
There is absolutely no reason you need a big jet at 250 hours. Why not buy a type rating on the Discovery at NASA?!? Its only 2.5million GBP and I am sure the bank will loan the money if you tell them NASA will hire you at the end as a professional Astraunaut. No hours on type but you could handle that baby no problem if the electronic systems went.
There are jobs out there....and for those that don't believe it pay all you want! Some young smart pilots I've met that know exactly how to do it....travel the country in your car....beg in every office and fly anything out of anywhere....It works...so keep flying. Money isn't great, but the experience you will build will further you career more than any A320 type rating can teach you.

While I have to admit I am currently looking for funds to pay fo a type rating. YYZ is mostly right we as pilots are responsible for the state of this industry. I was speaking to the head of an integrated school yesterday who told me that the problem started years ago when the first guy went to a company and said I will pay for my own type rating. This has spoilt things for the rest of us.


Yes there is a huge shortage of pilots but then there are hundereds out there willing to pay to work think of it. If you ran a low cost airline why pay for type rating when pilots are willing to pay to work. Sooner or later we will be told to pay for maintanance of the aircraft . I am not proud or happy about it and the truth hurts but then that is maret forces in a capitalist society.


Some airlines are now making it a business Altheon/my travel to train and quote give you experience. Why will they hire pilots and pay them salaries when there is healthy queue of eager pilots willing to sell thier soul to work for free. All they need to do now is get rid of thier first officers and use free pilots without worrying about FO's salaries unions, pensions and the lot of it.


Ten years ago companies like easyjet and ryanair would have bought thier own sims at least three or four each to train thier own pilots but there is a huge savings on getting us to pay for the priviledge of flying jets. I think thwe American system is far better than the European one (despite the negative coverage they are forever recieving in the press).


Until the market dictates otherwise we are stuck with these absurd practices. Good luck everyone.

[SinBin]

I ain't happy about it, but what choice do we have, I'm 30 now and I've got to get on with it. It's no use moaning about it, it will never help!

[Captain Douglas]

Listen Sin Bin. I dont not want to get into a slagging match with you on this. But why the hell do you think that anybody that has a different opinion to you doesn not know the hell what they are talking about.
Firstly airlines that do not need a type to name but a few: FLYBE, AIR SOUTHWEST, EASTERN, AURIGNY, LOGANAIR, BMI REGIONAL, FLIGHTLINE,(or are you too special to fly turboprops) MONARCH, GB, THOMAS COOK, THOMSONFLY AND TITAN thats just in the UK.
I would go as far as saying that most of the jet operators would not touch you with a barge pole if you paid for own rating! I know my company wouldn't.
Secondly, until you get your first foot on the ladder I would go as far to say that you do not know what you are talking about!
Good luck with your endeavours and keeep knocking on doors. Took me 7 years to get first airline job and believe you me recruitment has never been so good for 10+ years.

[LeFreak]

i'm 3 months away from turning 30, started ab-initio training in september 2004, got the CPL-ME-IR in June 2006, did the MCC on a 737-200 in August 2006, had my first interview in October 2006 and got hired in December 2006 .. now doing typerating without having to pay anything, i only had to sign a bond for 3 years .. all this for a national carrier, on a jet and with good salaries..

i didn't go to a major school and i don't have relatives/friends who have something to say in the airline industry .. don't give in to paying for your ratings, but if you do have to pay, make sure you are getting something that's worth it, f.e. a long term contract or at least 500+ hours on type .. all these 150 hours / 200 hours programs seem like easy money programs for the companies to me, with very little benefit to those who pay ..

just my humble opinion ..

don't give up your hopes guys!

[YYZ_Instructor]

SinBin...my post was not only for you and it wasn't out there to make you feel bad, I just hate it when pilots who have no hours complain that they can't get a job flying. Flying is not just a jet. I am also 30. I was an instructor yes, but I am not bitter as "Its a Job" put it. I am flying on a turbo prop and I enjoy it. The problem comes around in the cockpit....When you are a captain and you get a 250 hour guy in a high performance aircraft you feel uncertain. Think about it a little. Its almost like flying single pilot again.
MyTravel is getting you to pay to work, while they role in the money on their charters and at the end of the summer season they tell you to get lost while their fleet heads over here to Canada to do the South America Winter holidays.

Don't fund these schemes.
You will be the one that loses, its the only way it works....

Just fly...you will be happier with yourself when you look back.
I've flown in crap weather in the UK and I've flown in northern Canada where icing is severe and temps below -40C on gravel strips. That experience is second to none as we have had emergency after emergency.
Real flying.....

[Tubbs]

If I were you (Sinbin) I would take the Seneca job in an instant. Also, after a very enjoyable year instructing my handling skills and situational awareness were much improved. Please stay away from these pay-to-fly schemes as they can turn into horrendous situations and are blantantly exploiting the desperate and the stupid. I know of two people forced into poverty by schemes like this which went wrong. Always remember - there is no such thing as a company with a conscience.

[CarbHeatIn]

I've a good friend who paid 28k for type rating and line training on 757.
Straight into a job, starting salary circa 40k.
No reduced salary to pay for rating and no bond so he's free to move on if a better offer comes along.
And at least one of the airlines Captain Douglas mentioned, took guys off his course.

[Airgus]

a Business Decision ???

If you are talking about business decision, there plenty of ways to invest that amount of Money, that as soon as a year you will get that amount doubled... (and I am not talking about Narco business!) but not in this way!!....

...Aviation will never be a business it is just an expensive need...
Make an airline go on strike and you will see how the goverment react... instead if the Sony Employees go on strike, nobody cares...
It can be that this "business" have good and bad clycles, now it is clear that we are in the good one, but in couple of years it will sink again... how do the airline survives this bad cycles? because they are a "need" and Daddy Goverment will have support some of them...

Anyway, going back to the topic... (in my opinion) if you have that money, Daddy's gonna pay it and/or for you is like a change of coins, go ahead and pay your Hobby (like glider pilots buy the 200000Euros gliders), but do not say it is a business decision...
A Bond is a different story, but paying for your TR is sad...
Anyway, good luck feeding the pirates...

AirGus...

Originally Posted by SinBin

YYZ you have no idea what you're on about! I value money too and who's in debt here? It's a business decision. This scheme costs £32K, so I would be earning £7-10K a year flying a Bus? I don't think so!!

[wilcoluca]

Where did he complete the training? Which school?

Originally Posted by CarbHeatIn

I've a good friend who paid 28k for type rating and line training on 757.
Straight into a job, starting salary circa 40k.
No reduced salary to pay for rating and no bond so he's free to move on if a better offer comes along.
And at least one of the airlines Captain Douglas mentioned, took guys off his course.

[Pilot without a Jet]

YYZ Good Statement

I totally agree with YYZ, it is quite true, that if you do gain valuable knowledge in building hours and experiance the correct way it will help you alot, we are responsible in the condition of the industry today, and the senior account managment are laughing at us, yes why not let them make loads of money, its not them that have to pay the debts...Well said YYZ..hope people to start to learn..

[high-hopes]

Originally Posted by YYZ_Instructor

The problem comes around in the cockpit....When you are a captain and you get a 250 hour guy in a high performance aircraft you feel uncertain. Think about it a little. Its almost like flying single pilot again.

YYZ, I agree with you and I like your take on this subject.

however, if what your say it's true, particularly in the bit I've quoted, then it almost sounds like most jet operations with a low houred first officer are unsafe. I would like to think this is not the case.

h-h

[YYZ_Instructor]

I'm not saying they are all unsafe. You can take a normal person with no licence and teach him what to do in a cockpit over a week of line training and he will be able to do it just as well as any other pilot, but have an emergency that is not straight in the books and everything can go very wrong very fast! A pilot who has experienced other aircrafts and systems has a "better chance" to think of what could be the actual problem. Pilots with 3000 hours flying aircraft of various types have a wider knowledge of different systems and have had to handle problems on a smaller scale and can sometimes remember where those problems started from. Its just experience. You can pass any type rating with engine failures at V1 or rotate, even in the air.....yet look at most problems that resulted in fatalities;
Most were not from a simple engine failure. Flying the aircraft only on the engines....as captain would you feel better having a 250 hour pilot controlling an airplane with no hydraulics and only on engines with 180 passengers?? I know I wouldn't.....just my opinion.

[CarbHeatIn]

Originally Posted by YYZ_Instructor

The problem comes around in the cockpit....When you are a captain and you get a 250 hour guy in a high performance aircraft you feel uncertain. Think about it a little. Its almost like flying single pilot again.

BA, Air France, Lufthansa, KLM, Aer Lingus and many more reputable operators have been employing 250 hour pilots for over 40 years.

The captain is a training captain. The reason he gets paid extra is to not feel uncertain.

[SinBin]

Why do I feel everyone has ganged up on me, I'm leaving this thread as it's beginning to sound like an embittered slanging match which I want no part of!

[PicMas]

Your profile says wannabe pilot, show me these jobs that are available with no time on type, when most are now paying for their type ratings and I'll go quietly. I don't think you are qualified to air such an opinion.

Why don't you go looking for them instead?? Why is it that these kids with their wet certificates think the industry owes them a shiny jet immediately. Times have been rough, and there has been a surplus of pilots - Thats a p!sspoor reason for paying for your job!
Who says you shouldn't wait, and in the meantime build some experience you can actually use...

BA, Air France, Lufthansa, KLM, Aer Lingus and many more reputable operators have been employing 250 hour pilots for over 40 years.

Very true, I have personally instructed in such a program, very stringent and procedural AND 2P CONCEPT!!! how much of your training included standardized call-outs?? These pilots are trained by the airline for the airline. You will not hear these pilots say "T's&P's in the green".
If you could only arm yourself with a bit of patience instead of insisting on "there are no jobs out there" 'cause there are!

[planeshipcar]

I wouldn't knock anyone if they thought this course was right for them.

However, I just think if youre going pay for a type rating and get line experience. You may as well just do the Ryanair course and get paid to fly. If you don't like it after a year - you have 850 hours more and haven't spent £30 K, you'll also get some money be that not much.

I realise this can't be done on Airbus.

[SinBin]

Er, Picmas, I have, why do think I'm going down this route?

Every stone has been unturned thanks with no result.

I don't expect anything and nobody owes me a thing. Don't put me in that basket, I have my eyes wide open, I can tell you. Hell I'm not even definitely going for this scheme.

If airlines hate low hours people with 250 hours which I have significantly more, then why does our (Britain) flag carrier take integated bods with just 200 hours? Are they significantly better pilots, i think not. People get into airlines in so many different ways, it's not only 'the work your way up' route, which I would love to, but couldn't afford the paycut. My Dad has never paid a bean towards my flying and I've done it off my own back seeing as I'm a grown man! Tell me how to afford a wife, kids, house, 2 cars and living in the South East on an instructors pay. Which is why I termed paying for a TR as an investment. I currently have a very well paid management job and through someone like GECAT, who get people interviews, I could get an equally/only slightly less well paid job. It suits my circumstances, but probably not others.

I am not an enemy though and all I'm trying to do is break my way into this business which is apparently the 5th most desired career in the UK.

[CarbHeatIn]

Originally Posted by PicMas

Very true, I have personally instructed in such a program, very stringent and procedural AND 2P CONCEPT!!! how much of your training included standardized call-outs?? These pilots are trained by the airline for the airline. You will not hear these pilots say "T's&P's in the green".
If you could only arm yourself with a bit of patience instead of insisting on "there are no jobs out there" 'cause there are!

Not to be pedantic but these airlines also take self funded low hours pilots, who have not been sponsored or trained by the airline.

[BigGrecian]

The only reason I see for going for the My Travel one is in the hope you get kept on after the 150hrs

So just like every other we give you 100-200 line training system and may offer you a job....in reality equals you won't be offered a job - be careful the vast majority of people don't get offered employment.