The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: With my head in a sandbox!
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wings ATP is open again?....with the cadet holdpool building? ATPers should not be joining the scheme when 12 cadets a month are finishing, behind schedule with a £60k loan brewing! 12 ATP cadets have already been put on TR before cadets who have been holding for months - I'm sorry but cadets have invested 18 months of hard work (and lost potential earnings) and are £60k stakeholders in the company - ATP cadets should not be getting these opportunities in the current climate!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: With my head in a sandbox!
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Every cadet is a stakeholder in CTC - a stakehoder is defined as someone who has an investment (whether that be financially, asset-based, time etc) in an organisation. Cadets take a very sizable loan to 'bond' themselves into an agreement with APL (Airline Partners Ltd, a CTC subsiduary company that basically 'sponsors' - used rather loosely! - cadets through basic, intermediate and advanced training), a loan which is taken out in each individual cadet's name. This money is then put into CTC. Cadets also have the lost earnings potential that comes with trianing for 18-24 months plus all the time and effort that comes with training. That makes a cadet a stakeholder in the company. Cadets are made aware of the investments/sacrifices/risks they will be making, and this naturally comes with flight training now days, so is not unexpected. Either way, cadets are invested into the company, and should really be treated as such a little more!
12 ATPers will be starting TR in March (I believe they were selected back in around march/april 2008, so have been holding for a while) ahead of cadets who have been holding for months themselves. With so little money (comparititvely speaking) and time invested in CTC versus cadets, it has not gone down well at all that these ATP guys are to be placed before cadets! Quite frankly, they have not earned that priority! I am by no means having a go at those ATP guys as they have been incredibly patient to stick around for nearly a year waiting, but in the current climate, cadets surely should be getting the placements with ATPers filling the spare capacity on courses if/when it occurs. A biased view as I am a Wings cadet myself, but I believe it is fairly valid.
12 ATPers will be starting TR in March (I believe they were selected back in around march/april 2008, so have been holding for a while) ahead of cadets who have been holding for months themselves. With so little money (comparititvely speaking) and time invested in CTC versus cadets, it has not gone down well at all that these ATP guys are to be placed before cadets! Quite frankly, they have not earned that priority! I am by no means having a go at those ATP guys as they have been incredibly patient to stick around for nearly a year waiting, but in the current climate, cadets surely should be getting the placements with ATPers filling the spare capacity on courses if/when it occurs. A biased view as I am a Wings cadet myself, but I believe it is fairly valid.
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,091
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are a customer PAJ. You are not a stakeholder of any sort.
Perhaps you should dig out your contract and specify which clause states that you jump to the front of the queue?
An attitude like that will not win you any favours in the rather small world of commercial flying. I suspect you also demand to be given a full-time contract at EZY?
Perhaps you should dig out your contract and specify which clause states that you jump to the front of the queue?
An attitude like that will not win you any favours in the rather small world of commercial flying. I suspect you also demand to be given a full-time contract at EZY?
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: With my head in a sandbox!
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A stakeholder is someone with a vested interest in something, and that does not necessarily mean a business. I actually recall very clearly indeed (as I think many other Wings cadets will) CTC telling us that as cadets we are NOT customers, but that it was the partner airlines that are the customers. They said that is how CTC's business model was designed (although with the advent of iCP, that does shift somewhat) and that we were the 'product'.
I am fully aware that EZ will almost certainly not give me a full time position, something that is rather hard to come to terms with, but every other cadet I have trained with has the same reality to deal with so I am not unique. After 6 months line training, all contracts CTC have with cadets are effectively fulfilled. What cadets really want right now is some relevant communication and information as to where they stand (which we are not getting despite numerous attempts). Hearing that such a large number of ATPers were put on a course ahead of cadets was a complete shock. With large loan repayments due imminently on loans, something CTC are aware of, knowing that there are actually 12 going ahead in the queue is perhaps information we might want to plan for! NS, you are right, the industry owes us nothing, but as I am sure you can imagine, it is incredibly hard to detract emotionally when so much is on the line.
I am fully aware that EZ will almost certainly not give me a full time position, something that is rather hard to come to terms with, but every other cadet I have trained with has the same reality to deal with so I am not unique. After 6 months line training, all contracts CTC have with cadets are effectively fulfilled. What cadets really want right now is some relevant communication and information as to where they stand (which we are not getting despite numerous attempts). Hearing that such a large number of ATPers were put on a course ahead of cadets was a complete shock. With large loan repayments due imminently on loans, something CTC are aware of, knowing that there are actually 12 going ahead in the queue is perhaps information we might want to plan for! NS, you are right, the industry owes us nothing, but as I am sure you can imagine, it is incredibly hard to detract emotionally when so much is on the line.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: london
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PAJ,
Last time I checked, when I hand over £60,000 to someone for a service, I am the customer (yes, she was worth it). Airlines pay CTC money (how much, no one knows) for each cadet placed. They are also a customer.
As a 'product', what position does that put you in? Are you not then a commodity to be traded, with no say in what happens to you? Are you not just another sausage off the continuous conveyor belt of cadet pilots to be sold off to the highest bidder?
As a customer, you have rights. As a tradable commodity, you having nothing.
Out of interest, are you one of the guys that EZY let go after 6 months? If so, CTC have done exactly what the scheme states. They have trained you to a fATPL, you have had a 'line training experience'. Job done. Deal complete. Thanks very much.
EZY have used their position in the scheme to save money and, if what you say is right about the ATP cadets, CTC have also used their position in the scheme to make money. The losers are the tradable commodity.
I'm not saying what happened to the guys who were let go is a good thing, far from it. It sucks penguin balls. However, everyone who signs up to the scheme knows the score. It's just unfortunate that this has finally happened.
Last time I checked, when I hand over £60,000 to someone for a service, I am the customer (yes, she was worth it). Airlines pay CTC money (how much, no one knows) for each cadet placed. They are also a customer.
As a 'product', what position does that put you in? Are you not then a commodity to be traded, with no say in what happens to you? Are you not just another sausage off the continuous conveyor belt of cadet pilots to be sold off to the highest bidder?
As a customer, you have rights. As a tradable commodity, you having nothing.
Out of interest, are you one of the guys that EZY let go after 6 months? If so, CTC have done exactly what the scheme states. They have trained you to a fATPL, you have had a 'line training experience'. Job done. Deal complete. Thanks very much.
EZY have used their position in the scheme to save money and, if what you say is right about the ATP cadets, CTC have also used their position in the scheme to make money. The losers are the tradable commodity.
I'm not saying what happened to the guys who were let go is a good thing, far from it. It sucks penguin balls. However, everyone who signs up to the scheme knows the score. It's just unfortunate that this has finally happened.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: With my head in a sandbox!
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not one of the cadets laid off by EZY, rather one of many cadets currently treading water waiting for a TR and then line training, all the while in the knowledge that repayments for my loan are imminent! So as of this time, my contract with CTC personally has not been fulfilled. I have tried to write not as an individual (although that I have clearly not acheived!) but more as a representative for those currently in a similar situation, and those who will be joining the pool each month. I think my personal feelings are echoed by those other cadets at least to some extent.
I don't think debating the customer/product status of cadets is necessarily particularly constructive, but I would whole-heartedly agree that on handing over £60k, cadets should indeed be considered a customer. And I think we are considered customers at times (particularly when they are trying to get us to hand over that money), but when it is more convenient for CTC, cadets are treated much more like a commodity as you say, namely when the going starts to get a bit tough.
What has bothered cadets is the lack of information that comes our way. CTC do have a strategy, and this strategy effectively dictates what happens next for each of us, but we are not told what that is! Something very simple like knowing your position in the holdpool, for example, is quite important when trying to sort your life out for the interim. But to my knowledge, even after numerous attempts by different people, this has not once been disclosed.
In hindsight, pprune might not be the best place to try to make a point like this, but perhaps putting it out there might bring something useful to the table.
I don't think debating the customer/product status of cadets is necessarily particularly constructive, but I would whole-heartedly agree that on handing over £60k, cadets should indeed be considered a customer. And I think we are considered customers at times (particularly when they are trying to get us to hand over that money), but when it is more convenient for CTC, cadets are treated much more like a commodity as you say, namely when the going starts to get a bit tough.
What has bothered cadets is the lack of information that comes our way. CTC do have a strategy, and this strategy effectively dictates what happens next for each of us, but we are not told what that is! Something very simple like knowing your position in the holdpool, for example, is quite important when trying to sort your life out for the interim. But to my knowledge, even after numerous attempts by different people, this has not once been disclosed.
In hindsight, pprune might not be the best place to try to make a point like this, but perhaps putting it out there might bring something useful to the table.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This straight from PPJN.
Need at least 100 (maybe 170) experienced crew - probably includes CTC cadets laid off last year. UPDATE: There is no permanent external recruitment of pilots planned in 2009. New pilots will enter initially through a modified CTC scheme.
So it's not all bad for you lot.....
Need at least 100 (maybe 170) experienced crew - probably includes CTC cadets laid off last year. UPDATE: There is no permanent external recruitment of pilots planned in 2009. New pilots will enter initially through a modified CTC scheme.
So it's not all bad for you lot.....
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Europe
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good evening,
Since it's my first post on this forum (even if I've read it for a while), I wanted to thank you all for the useful informations we can find here.
I'm really interested in the CTC Cadet scheme and have a few question which didn't find any answer yet. Here they are.
1) I'd like to apply to the program very soon but I would also like to prepare myself to the assessment phase 2 and 3 with the "Get a head for the sky" book. Do you think that I'll have enough time between the beginning of the application process and the moment they call me to stage 2 (if I pass) ?
2) I'm also trying to be part of the IACE (International Air Cadet Exchange) 2009 and I may not be able to start my training until mid- August. In that case, would my application still be considered ? Is it possible then to change the date to the end of April for the initial training ?
Thanks for your help
Pierre
Since it's my first post on this forum (even if I've read it for a while), I wanted to thank you all for the useful informations we can find here.
I'm really interested in the CTC Cadet scheme and have a few question which didn't find any answer yet. Here they are.
1) I'd like to apply to the program very soon but I would also like to prepare myself to the assessment phase 2 and 3 with the "Get a head for the sky" book. Do you think that I'll have enough time between the beginning of the application process and the moment they call me to stage 2 (if I pass) ?
2) I'm also trying to be part of the IACE (International Air Cadet Exchange) 2009 and I may not be able to start my training until mid- August. In that case, would my application still be considered ? Is it possible then to change the date to the end of April for the initial training ?
Thanks for your help
Pierre
Last edited by Pi_R; 7th Feb 2009 at 19:38.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: london
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SW1,
Was that from the easyJet page? How is a placement through Flexicrew (which is what they will be getting at) a good thing?
Paj,
Herein lies the problem of the scheme. Cadets are the tradable commodity (of which there is a limitless supply) and as a result, like any expendable commodity, they are treated as such. Cadets are too scared to speak up as they fear being chopped so just go along with what they are, or as you said, are not told and just wait.... and wait... and wait...
Was that from the easyJet page? How is a placement through Flexicrew (which is what they will be getting at) a good thing?
Paj,
Herein lies the problem of the scheme. Cadets are the tradable commodity (of which there is a limitless supply) and as a result, like any expendable commodity, they are treated as such. Cadets are too scared to speak up as they fear being chopped so just go along with what they are, or as you said, are not told and just wait.... and wait... and wait...
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sharpclassic: That was on PPJN and was briefly mentioned in the Easyjet Balpa newsletter, according to the Terms and Endearment thread.
My point was that its a good thing for the Cadets that were given a 6 month placement and then left out in the cold. A job is a job and in this climate anything whether "Flexicrew" or whatever gives them some kind of income to pay their debts as well as gaining that RHS place that youve all paid for.
I personally know 7 cadets out in Hamilton that would not be too displeased that easyjet will be sourcing most of their new recruits through
CTC.
My point was that its a good thing for the Cadets that were given a 6 month placement and then left out in the cold. A job is a job and in this climate anything whether "Flexicrew" or whatever gives them some kind of income to pay their debts as well as gaining that RHS place that youve all paid for.
I personally know 7 cadets out in Hamilton that would not be too displeased that easyjet will be sourcing most of their new recruits through
CTC.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: london
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SW1,
I feel you're missing the point. Yes, Flexicrew gives you a job for 6 months. Yes, you will be type rated with 400 odd hours on type. Yes, you will be paid £1,000 a month for your work, which, after bills, rent etc doesn't leave you with much.
Do you benefit? Short term, maybe. Long term, no.
If you think that with a A320 type rating and 400 hours on type you are suddenly marketable to any airline, just ask the guys who were let go by easyJet and Monarch this summer. Most airlines are looking for 1,500hrs total.
So, now you've joined the pile of flexicrew guys who are type rated but with so few hours, they can't get jobs elsewhere. Meanwhile, cadets are still being wheeled off the production line, into the new flexicrew placements.
Really want to spend your life as a contract pilot? Good luck paying your loan back like that, let alone getting a mortgage.
I feel you're missing the point. Yes, Flexicrew gives you a job for 6 months. Yes, you will be type rated with 400 odd hours on type. Yes, you will be paid £1,000 a month for your work, which, after bills, rent etc doesn't leave you with much.
Do you benefit? Short term, maybe. Long term, no.
If you think that with a A320 type rating and 400 hours on type you are suddenly marketable to any airline, just ask the guys who were let go by easyJet and Monarch this summer. Most airlines are looking for 1,500hrs total.
So, now you've joined the pile of flexicrew guys who are type rated but with so few hours, they can't get jobs elsewhere. Meanwhile, cadets are still being wheeled off the production line, into the new flexicrew placements.
Really want to spend your life as a contract pilot? Good luck paying your loan back like that, let alone getting a mortgage.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Deepest Europe...
Age: 39
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you think that with a A320 type rating and 400 hours on type you are suddenly marketable to any airline, just ask the guys who were let go by easyJet and Monarch this summer.
Yes, you will be paid £1,000 a month for your work, which, after bills, rent etc doesn't leave you with much.
The "customer or not" debate rears its head from time to time, not least among cadets actually on the course. I'm sure the way the flow of money between various is set up is such that the company can call the various parties what they like, but I personally hate the "you are not the customer" line which is often spun. Like various people have said, if I've handed over 60 grand for my training, I don't care who it's to - I have paid for something and therefore I am a customer.
Last edited by bjkeates; 7th Feb 2009 at 16:53. Reason: Decided to remove last bit
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: England
Age: 33
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Phase 4
Hi
I'm heading to phase 4 on the 19th; anyone from the 10/2 selection day going there? Also, can anyone who has done phase 4 recently offer any advice and give me an idea of what to expect/how best to prepare over the course of a week? Are you always asked maths questions while you fly? Cheers.
I'm heading to phase 4 on the 19th; anyone from the 10/2 selection day going there? Also, can anyone who has done phase 4 recently offer any advice and give me an idea of what to expect/how best to prepare over the course of a week? Are you always asked maths questions while you fly? Cheers.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Europa
Posts: 612
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Think outside the box
Just because you have a 73 or A320 rating with low total time doesn't mean you have to restrict yourself to shiny jet jobs - (sadly less shiny these days now the redundancies have hit and temp contracts are the rage).
FRA just took on 3 new FOs - one straight out of Oxford for one of the best manual flying, Multi Crew jobs on the planet:
Calibration Flying around EU. From the Azores to Cyprus.
Their Raw Data ILS & NDB handling skills will never be better after a year or two from now. 4 foot low at 6 miles out "on" the glideslope out is almost a cardinal sin - expect a reprimand from the Flight Inspector!
Apparently all had under 300 hours TT. So there is hope for newbies after all.
FRA just took on 3 new FOs - one straight out of Oxford for one of the best manual flying, Multi Crew jobs on the planet:
Calibration Flying around EU. From the Azores to Cyprus.
Their Raw Data ILS & NDB handling skills will never be better after a year or two from now. 4 foot low at 6 miles out "on" the glideslope out is almost a cardinal sin - expect a reprimand from the Flight Inspector!
Apparently all had under 300 hours TT. So there is hope for newbies after all.