The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Airport
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thanks for your reply flyingGreek, i need to make sure that by doing the ground school and the AQC with CTC I would get some interview because if I decide to do the AQC with CTC I would need to pay an extra 9000€ aprox, compared by doing MCC+JOC at Simtech.
flyfly4, if you do the "AQC" with CTC and you meet the required standard during the course, then you will go into their hold pool. Then when you're near the top of the list, and you meet the requirements specified by the airline, they will offer you the chance to go for selection for that airline.
Whether you do ground school or not with CTC is irrelevant as far as I know.
Points to note - Doing the "AQC" does not automatically guarantee an interview... if you fall short of the standard, you will not make it into the hold pool and therefore will not get an interview.
The aviation industry changes pretty rapidly, and what is the case today, may be different next week.
There are many people doing an MCC/JOC at CTC having already done one previously. Several of them did one at Simtech, then only a couple of months later went to CTC as well. Several at my airline have done more than one MCC/JOCs, and went to CTC in order to get better access to the jobs and opportunities.
Whether you do ground school or not with CTC is irrelevant as far as I know.
Points to note - Doing the "AQC" does not automatically guarantee an interview... if you fall short of the standard, you will not make it into the hold pool and therefore will not get an interview.
The aviation industry changes pretty rapidly, and what is the case today, may be different next week.
There are many people doing an MCC/JOC at CTC having already done one previously. Several of them did one at Simtech, then only a couple of months later went to CTC as well. Several at my airline have done more than one MCC/JOCs, and went to CTC in order to get better access to the jobs and opportunities.
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Airport
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thank you for replying llamafarmer, that's interesting to know.
What is the "required standard" that they expect from students? I would like to know what they really want.
How does it exactly work? For example if I would like to go to easyjet, do they get you interviews from airlines you are interested or just any?
Thanks!!
What is the "required standard" that they expect from students? I would like to know what they really want.
How does it exactly work? For example if I would like to go to easyjet, do they get you interviews from airlines you are interested or just any?
Thanks!!
I think the way it works when you are in the hold pool is they tell you what the general requirements are for each airline (i.e. minimum average ATPL ground school %, number of retakes, maximum series/attempt for CPL/IR, maximum number of extra training hours required etc) and what the type rating situation for each airline is (i.e. paid for by the airline, paid for by the trainee, paid at short notice by the trainee) then you can work out which you are/aren't eligible for.
They then keep you informed of the selections that you are eligible for, but you don't have to accept a selection/assessment for that airline or at that time. e.g. if you wanted to work for Monarch and they offer an Easyjet selection you don't have to take the EJ assessment, or you might tell them you can only take a selection for airlines that will pay the type rating. Not taking an assessment opportunity that is offered doesn't count as one of your attempts, it only counts if you take the assessment and fail (or turn it down). But if you're turning down assessment opportunities they will be asking themselves why and probably be asking you too.
As for "required standard", from speaking to others, it appears that the non-technical skills training, each simulator session, and the MCC overall, is marked on a scale of 1 to 4...
3 being "good enough" or "achieves expected standard", 4 being "very good" or "exceeds expected standard".
2 is "below standard expected" and 1 is something along the lines of "oh dear me, try a different career"
Getting a 3 for everything is "good enough", getting 4s is a demonstration of your abilities, but won't put you at any particular advantage over anyone else, so if you get 3s, you don't have to worry about someone jumping ahead of you because they got 4s.
Getting a 2 for one sim is not the end of the world, but does limit your options with regards to certain airlines. Getting a 1 is a big problem.
Apparently airlines view a 3 as a normal standard, or "meets CTC standard". Since airlines have experience of, and are happy with, the CTC product, anything that meets that standard is pretty much a known quality and therefore has a good enough technical/non-technical foundation, with the extra capacity to be moulded by the airline and be able to cope with type rating and line training.
If you are "just another typical CTC trainee" that'll be usually be good enough for nearly every CTC-partner airline.
As for airline assessment/selection/interview, one of the main reasons people fail that stage is not because of their technical knowledge or non-technical skills (i.e. group exercises etc), it is because they don't appear to have thought about their longer term plans, or why they want to join THAT airline.
Granted, at that stage, most people would be happy with any airline that wants them, and even outside aviation, people at the start of their career are pretty grateful to get their first job whoever its for.
BUT, it's a game, you have to show them you want it. Know about the company, have a good answer for why you want to join that company, and why you are a good fit for the company. And if they ask where do you see yourself in 5 or 10 years time, don't say something unrealistic, but also don't say something like "flying long haul" at an Easyjet interview. Even though you've paid for your training and will probably be paying for your type rating, the airline is still going to be investing a lot into you, they don't want you to be leaving after a few years for something better. Even if that is your plan, even if they know it's probably your plan, for god's sake don't actually admit it openly, it's insulting to the airline who you're trying to get a job offer from.
They then keep you informed of the selections that you are eligible for, but you don't have to accept a selection/assessment for that airline or at that time. e.g. if you wanted to work for Monarch and they offer an Easyjet selection you don't have to take the EJ assessment, or you might tell them you can only take a selection for airlines that will pay the type rating. Not taking an assessment opportunity that is offered doesn't count as one of your attempts, it only counts if you take the assessment and fail (or turn it down). But if you're turning down assessment opportunities they will be asking themselves why and probably be asking you too.
As for "required standard", from speaking to others, it appears that the non-technical skills training, each simulator session, and the MCC overall, is marked on a scale of 1 to 4...
3 being "good enough" or "achieves expected standard", 4 being "very good" or "exceeds expected standard".
2 is "below standard expected" and 1 is something along the lines of "oh dear me, try a different career"
Getting a 3 for everything is "good enough", getting 4s is a demonstration of your abilities, but won't put you at any particular advantage over anyone else, so if you get 3s, you don't have to worry about someone jumping ahead of you because they got 4s.
Getting a 2 for one sim is not the end of the world, but does limit your options with regards to certain airlines. Getting a 1 is a big problem.
Apparently airlines view a 3 as a normal standard, or "meets CTC standard". Since airlines have experience of, and are happy with, the CTC product, anything that meets that standard is pretty much a known quality and therefore has a good enough technical/non-technical foundation, with the extra capacity to be moulded by the airline and be able to cope with type rating and line training.
If you are "just another typical CTC trainee" that'll be usually be good enough for nearly every CTC-partner airline.
As for airline assessment/selection/interview, one of the main reasons people fail that stage is not because of their technical knowledge or non-technical skills (i.e. group exercises etc), it is because they don't appear to have thought about their longer term plans, or why they want to join THAT airline.
Granted, at that stage, most people would be happy with any airline that wants them, and even outside aviation, people at the start of their career are pretty grateful to get their first job whoever its for.
BUT, it's a game, you have to show them you want it. Know about the company, have a good answer for why you want to join that company, and why you are a good fit for the company. And if they ask where do you see yourself in 5 or 10 years time, don't say something unrealistic, but also don't say something like "flying long haul" at an Easyjet interview. Even though you've paid for your training and will probably be paying for your type rating, the airline is still going to be investing a lot into you, they don't want you to be leaving after a few years for something better. Even if that is your plan, even if they know it's probably your plan, for god's sake don't actually admit it openly, it's insulting to the airline who you're trying to get a job offer from.
One of the guys currently type rating at CTC on the A320, not sure if for easyJet or Monarch, but he came from somewhere in Europe with CPL/IR/MCC and hadn't managed to get any interviews since completing his integrated training (not at one of the UK integrated schools) in 2013.
Apparently finished his AQC about 5 months ago, so even he at the lowest of CTC's priority list managed to get an assessment and type rating date within about 3-4 months of going into the hold pool.
Apparently finished his AQC about 5 months ago, so even he at the lowest of CTC's priority list managed to get an assessment and type rating date within about 3-4 months of going into the hold pool.
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CTC pre entry test
Hi all, just wondering if anyone had any info on the online test which needs to be completed before starting at CTC? I've been sent the ebooks and am about ready I think but just wondering how others have found it? Challenging compared to selection? Is it possible to completely fail or is it just a case of retaking? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Tubeflyer. I wouldn't worry to much about it. It is only basic math and physics. Things like newton laws, trigonometry and formula rearrangements. Just make sure you read the padpilot books properly. It will take you about 3-5 hours to read through it all. Make the test (open book) and you will see that you'll probably score in the region of 90-100%. If you fail the test, just try it again.
the sooner you'll pass the exams, the sooner you can start reading the 'real deal'. Module 1 is a tough module with POF and Gen Nav. Do as much pre reading as you can. Good luck!
the sooner you'll pass the exams, the sooner you can start reading the 'real deal'. Module 1 is a tough module with POF and Gen Nav. Do as much pre reading as you can. Good luck!
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the reply aero, I've spent the last few weeks reading padpiolt so will take the leap in the next few days. As you say I'm keen to get stuck into the actual modules!
Just to clarify veryhighflyer - this is after selection at Dibden and being accepted but prior to commencing the course.
Just to clarify veryhighflyer - this is after selection at Dibden and being accepted but prior to commencing the course.
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: not far
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Poor, naive kids. After next two years no work + 70k debt = cold shower on overheated heads. Good luck all of you, maybe you become flight instructors on 40y.o+ smelly Cessna with income below national minimum wage
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: France
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm far from a CTC apologist, but I don't think that the above post paints a realistic picture of what awaits graduates of the Wings programme.
The first couple of years after training will probably be something of a struggle financially, but there's still a reasonable chance (although by no means nailed on!) that less than a decade after starting training, you'll be a captain on a package worth well over £100k a year.
An untagged course at CTC represents a significant risk, but prospects are still not bad.
The first couple of years after training will probably be something of a struggle financially, but there's still a reasonable chance (although by no means nailed on!) that less than a decade after starting training, you'll be a captain on a package worth well over £100k a year.
An untagged course at CTC represents a significant risk, but prospects are still not bad.
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NZ
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This post screams bitterness and chip on shoulder. Simply not true.
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: London
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain Duckhead, It is possible to end up in your position from CTC, yes. They are ruthless if they decide you don't meet their standard. Can I ask if it was at CTC you did your training?
My experience (and the experience of around 85/90% of whitetail cadets I know) was a very swift transfer from training to employment, with various partner airlines accepting new cadets directly onto jet jobs. That is a far cry from what you are suggesting is the norm...
My experience (and the experience of around 85/90% of whitetail cadets I know) was a very swift transfer from training to employment, with various partner airlines accepting new cadets directly onto jet jobs. That is a far cry from what you are suggesting is the norm...
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CaptainDuckhead - I'd be very interested to hear about your experiences. I'm assuming you went through CTC and were offered nothing at the end? Were you put forward to any airline assessments?
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: France
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He seems to be a bitter troll.
Personally, I wouldn't recommend people spend £100k on training without at least having the relative security of a place on an airline tagged scheme, but history suggests that if you're going to do it, you may as well do it with CTC. I don't think there are many who made the grade on the course who haven't found airline employment in short order.
Personally, I wouldn't recommend people spend £100k on training without at least having the relative security of a place on an airline tagged scheme, but history suggests that if you're going to do it, you may as well do it with CTC. I don't think there are many who made the grade on the course who haven't found airline employment in short order.