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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

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The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

Old 24th Jul 2011, 05:43
  #3821 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: on the street
Posts: 37
It is interesting to watch how CTC has changed over the years. The comments from cadets/instructors 4-5 years ago were mostly good, then 2-4 years they became more damming due to the increase in costs. Now the most recent change has been the severe drop in Quality.
My advice to Tweety55 is to find recent information on CTC. Even ring up the NZ training school and ask to talk to some cadets/instructors.
You will be making a BIG investment, make sure you know what you are paying for. There are now a LOT of hidden costs that were previously included in the price.
systematically is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2011, 00:07
  #3822 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: UK
Age: 29
Posts: 4
Thanks djfingerscrossed for the informations.

So now you are a pilot even though you had some difficulties during the time you were in the holding pool,right?
Do you think the linceces were issued to you by CTC (or uk in general) were valuated better than all others issued in other countries? Because my point is: you can obtain the same licences in Florida for 1/3 of CTC's cost; but I have heard that is more importart who has issued them instead of the actual papers.

Regarding the finance I have to ask a loan so if I will choose to start this course and I fail I am . Plan B is university but the don't pay you to study...
Tweety55 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2011, 08:31
  #3823 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 59
Not so systematically

Systematically - re your last thread; Air NZ has a number of sims it wants to make more use of therefore any training organization with sims was competition and never a candidate as one of their flight trainers. Ask them if training through one of their selected trainers gives any form of head start.
Jack Sprat is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2011, 14:14
  #3824 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: stoke on trent england
Age: 44
Posts: 147
New ctc application

Hello all
I've recently applied to join the ctc cadet programme a couple of things I'd like advice on
1 when your down in Southampton how long is a typical day I know the whole course takes about a year, would I have to give my job up I live a fair distance from Southampton,would you be needed to move?
2 and if so how do you support yourself ie accomadation and living costs as it seems ctc don't account for that!! 60grand training programme isn't cheap in anycase
Please pass on your advice please
aerofoil1 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2011, 15:50
  #3825 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,264
On the wings cadet course you will find that it is a full time approved training course.

In Southampton you will spend about 5 months of Mon-Fri 9am to 5 pm classroom (including CBT) training. There will also be a significant level of self study, some of which will be on premises and some of which will be home study.

You will then spend around 7 months in New Zealand doing your flight training.

Following this is 2 months of full time UK instrument rating training and examination, at Bournemouth.

Then there follows the intermediate phase of airline based (MCC) training known as the Airline qualification course. This takes around 3 weeks.

Then follows the advanced training leading towards (and in conjunction with) airline placement. This only happens once placements are established. It may involve a long wait for such a placement depending on the opportunities available at any given point in time. These placements are not uniform in nature or in the terms of appointment. Some may involve significant levels of additional expense for type rating training, and some may involve no additional expense.

It would be realistically impossible to do such a course whilst holding down any other major form of employment. The course is a full time vocation for at least 18 months.

Your accomodation is provided within the course costs (or training bond as it would be referred to.) This is usually in shared rental property in Southampton and Bournemouth during the respective training phases. In New Zealand, it is in purpose built, single room, halls of residence style accomodation a few miles from the training facility at Hamilton airport.

Food/transport and other ancilliary costs (including insurances, security bonds, and other living expenses) are down to you. Depending on your own circumstances, that figure probably benchmarks around 10,000.

The training costs are not "60,000" They are around a base figure of 80,000. The Training bond is a basic 69,000 but on top of this (and to some extent dependant upon your previous flying experience,) there is an additional foundation course to pay for, which (depending on the exchange rate) is around another 10,500. The $NZ is currently very strong against sterling, the Euro, and the US Dollar. It has appreciated about 20% in the last year alone, and that is from a very strong base even then.
You should therefore plan on a minimum budget of around 90,000 - 95,000. You might also want to earmark an additional 7,000-10,000 for possible extra type rating costs at completion of the intermediate (ACQ) phase.

You would be well advised to start by reading the CTC website, where much of this information can be found. In any event, I hope this is helpful.
Bealzebub is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2011, 21:16
  #3826 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: England
Age: 32
Posts: 73
In Southampton you will spend about 5 months of Mon-Fri 9am to 5 pm classroom (including CBT) training. There will also be a significant level of self study, some of which will be on premises and some of which will be home study.
Just to clarify, my current groundschool schedule follows a Mon - Thursday timetable with Friday's set aside for self study at the either at the provided accomodation or at the Nursling traning facility. The average day is 9am-3pm (occassionally 4pm) with plenty of breaks throughout the day for a breather .

My property is within 10 minutes drive of the training centre - smack bang in the middle of the New Forest which is beautiful and a great escape after a heavy day studying General Navigation. I believe that you are required to stay in the provided accomodation during the week, but at the weekends you are free to do your own thing, travel home etc. This is due to CAA policies of an "integrated" course.

Beazlebub is spot on regarding having a job during the integrated training, and in fact it's in our contract that we are not to have any form of "employment" whilst undergoing our training. (There would be absolutely no point anyway as you will not have any time during groundschool.)

pipersam is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2011, 21:42
  #3827 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: stoke on trent england
Age: 44
Posts: 147
im hoping to join with my ppl as that should hopefully be passed within 2months weather permitting which should save at least 10k,its a big commitment and i dont even know if ill get selected especially as i only have 2 gcses maths and physics but who knows
so i take it most people are securing the funding via spanish bank mbva
aerofoil1 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2011, 21:56
  #3828 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,264
im hoping to join with my ppl as that should hopefully be passed within 2months weather permitting which should save at least 10k
That is not how it works. The foundation course is not simply a PPL. In fact you dont actually get a PPL. It incorporates more than that. As such, previous experience might get you some credit towards the foundation course but it will not substitute for it. You will still be required to pay for the full course, with any possible credit being given at the end of that phase of the training.

The bank is BBVA, and it specialises in secured funding for flight training as one of its smaller divisions. It may offer funding with tailored packages allowing up front payment holidays, and partially deferred repayment periods. However the borowers or their guarantors need to be in excellent financial standing with security (property) that has a value of at least 30% more than the total sum borrowed plus any existing mortgages or charges.

Not everybody utilizes or qualifies for this type of funding.
Bealzebub is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2011, 09:10
  #3829 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: stoke on trent england
Age: 44
Posts: 147
Well there goes that idea I won't qualify for the funding and since I do not have 80grand sitting in my bank the dream an ATPL will probably never happen they say there is a shortage of pilots how do the airlines expect any newcomers to get into the industry without sponsorships any one have any ideas I'm seriously thinking of just passing my PPL getting an instrument rating and leaving it at that just trying to be realistic
aerofoil1 is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2011, 10:40
  #3830 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 7
I qualified for the BBVA loan by using my grandparents house for security and the fact that my parents could afford the ~800pm initial reduced payments. Our joint assets including cars and cash is <20,000.

If you have a house available and parents with a reasonable income then don't give up.
mark_eisner is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2011, 12:47
  #3831 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: england
Posts: 18
Does anyone know how many (UK) CTC cadets in 2010 or 2011 actually have been offered a job after completion of their line training? Or what the approx. chances are? Or any related info.

I passed all the requirements for the wings cadet scheme, but now my pink glasses have faded over time, I'm in doubt whether to start or not.. The current market is evil.
stella di mare is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2011, 13:24
  #3832 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: stoke on trent england
Age: 44
Posts: 147
Thanks steve, after giving it some thought I agree the whole ctc set up looks like there taking you for the money 80k and not a guarantee of a job I mean what do you live on in Southampton when your studying for the course as your not allowed to work then you have to pay the loan back it's not for me besides I do not have a big enough house for this kind of loan there must be other routes to take if not I'll stick with my ppl and carry on dreaming!
aerofoil1 is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2011, 14:13
  #3833 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,264
I think people need to be sensible, realistic and risk aware, before they consider these type of programmes.

You are paying for a course of integrated flight training and that is expensive at around 80,000.

There can be no guarantee of a job, because those jobs are not in the gift of the training provider. They are possible placements offered in conjunction with independent commercial airlines, whose own requirements are subject to change depending on their own finances and trading markets.

This is a full time training programme of around 18 months duration. It is not a correspondence course, or a flexible part time programme. That is one aspect of what makes the programme attractive to its partner airline customers. For somebody considering embarking on such a programme, they will need to have all of their finances in order to cover the duration of the course, including living costs.

The prospect of a placement upon completion, is based on the assumed state of the market 18 months further down the road. That is an unknown forecast that can be viewed with whatever degree of optimism or pessimism the buyer, seller, and any third party buyers feel at any given moment in time.

This programme has a track record of placing cadets with "partner airlines". Given that this is a major feature of this programme, it is presumably very much in the interest of the company to work to ensure that remains successful. Without this competitive advantage, it would simply be another integrated training provider. Despite this, it cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear. If there are no placements to be had, then it must (and has) look for whatever the market has to offer. In the last few years that has centred around one large "lo-cost" airline. That airline has dictated it's own terms, and that has often involved extra costs for the successful placements.

In another 18 months this may be the norm. Things may be better, or they may be worse. Who knows?

Where these programmes do have an advantage, is that airlines nearly always use similar programmes for their cadet entry opportunities. That is likely to be increasingly so, as and when there is an acceleration in the marketplace. Airlines do not generally regard a CPL/IR and 200 hours as meeting even the minimum requirements for direct recruitment. At this level of flying experience, these programmes are pretty much the only game in town for those who want a serious chance at this level. However they come with no guarantees, and you need to be able to afford them.

In my opinion, you need the finances in place. You need to understand that there may be a long period of waiting at the completion of the course. You need to be able to cover these realities and always have a fall back plan.

If you cannot sensibly satisfy these conditions, then you should look at different strategies and routes in commercial flying, if that remains a realistic ambition.
Bealzebub is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2011, 14:44
  #3834 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: england
Posts: 18
Thank you for your response, Bealzebub. It came to my knowledge that after completion of line training (at this specific orange lcc), your place will simply be filled by the next cadet in the holding pool. And you will enter the same market as the other 1000s of unemployed pilots (but with a bit more hours behind your name). Hence no direct job opportunities.

Would that give you some competitive advantages. I have a back-up plan in place, but if that plan deems necessary, the course would be a complete waste of a lot of money..
stella di mare is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2011, 15:17
  #3835 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,264

My understanding in the case you mention, is that there have been a significant number of permanent places offered to cadets, that have dovetailed from those temporary contracts. Somebody closer and better qualified to comment should be able to provide more details.

Even where temporary placements are achieved, it would likely result in close to 500 hours on an airliner for those who are successful. Whatever the ongoing difficulties and realities of the marketplace, I would have thought that would place somebody on the next rung of the experience ladder with regard to further employment.

Across the industry, I think it is quite likely in the near term, that seasonal and part time contracts will become more and more the norm. However it is also likely that permanent contracts will springboard from these, eventually.

With large training debts to service, times are difficult even for many of the successful applicants. This is an "apprenticeship" at these experience levels, and the terms and conditions on offer reflect that fact, as well as they reflect the general state of the market.
Bealzebub is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2011, 11:08
  #3836 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 29
Posts: 4

Hi all,
Is there anybody who has recently sat the phase 2/3 assessment for CTC wings?
If so, could you provide some details as what to expect as I really don't have any idea of what type of questions they will ask and how difficult the interview is.
A different flight training provider I have an upcoming assessment with has sent me a detailed document of what to expect and what to revise where as CTC have sent nothing.
Muel07 is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2011, 23:17
  #3837 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: England
Age: 32
Posts: 73
Muel, take a look back through this thread, there is plenty of information describing exactly what you can expect at the assessment and it will help for sure
pipersam is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2011, 11:55
  #3838 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere...
Posts: 35

eJ (and Monarch) have taken cadets this year and last year and quite a lot in fact. Not completely sure how many. Graduates finishing CTC Wings in Jan/Feb 2011 have just started getting placed recently via the FlexiCrew scheme so it's not looking too bad... things are starting to pick up!
PitchPitch is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2011, 21:09
  #3839 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Billingham
Age: 25
Posts: 24
I've just received my stage 2 confirmation, and have paid the fees online, incredibly nervous for the Arithmetic and PILAPT test.

Anyone else got stage 2 on the 14TH of September?
Ryan Bell is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2011, 16:48
  #3840 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: United Kingdom (EGKK)
Posts: 104
Development Day/ Meet & Greet

Hey Guys

Does anyone that has been accepted for the CTC Wings Course, have the Development Day/ Meet & Greet on the 16 February 2012?
patm92 is offline  

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