Wee Weasley Welshman

It won't pick up.

The new low is the new low.

Its the entry standard to which all Wannabes must now aspire.


CPL/IR Frzn ATPL MCC Overpriced Type Rating AND Temp Contract is now the first rung on the Wannabe ladder.


You'd better be able to pay for all that plus two years of part time summer work. Large airline B737 A320 First Officers now make about £6.90 an hour.

Its the new rate. Its real. Its happening.




Believe me.



Your CPL counts for ****. You're on under £8 an hour. You're a shelf stacker. Its over.



WWW

wilky

Is this really it WWW? This really grips my s*%t. I have been working my nuts off for the 10 years and finally when I have enough cash to fund training, this happens! OK a there was a recession, a credit crunch whatever. They have happened before and they will happen again, but that aside what is happening to the industry is not short of criminal.

I'm not one that is interested in jumping into a RHS of a jet. Not interested in the status or the salary(or lack off) as a matter of fact I actually want to start on a turbo prop, Ariel work, whatever, I want to have some different flying experience before getting into a jet.

I am lucky enough to have been in a highly paid job (although I do despise it) last few years and have a nice little a nest egg, do I really want to blow it all on training AND a type rating? Training I don’t mind - that’s what I’ve been saving for, but to now be expected to blow another £30000 on a type rating for contract work, just seems, well lunacy!!

I'm having a mental battle with myself - do I continue with training? I'm currently doing my PPL and will complete that for sure, but do I take it further.

I would be more than happy to bond to turbo prop airline if I had a type rating paid for and be on the payroll, but how long until the turbo prop operators start similar schemes. How many wannabes will be desperate enough to stoop to new lows to get in the RHS. I'm a wannabe myself, I have also had that "dream since I was a kid" to fly, but at this rate it's going to remain a dream, I don’t want a dream to turn into a nightmare, with £30000+ I’m saving on a type rating and the other £45000+ on training I might just buy myself a 172 and enjoy some touring to Europe.

It may be the end of a dream to fly commercially, but thank christ I listened to WWW posts a year ago or so and held off, I feel you may have just saved me a fortune and a hell of a lot of stress.

Such a shame wannabes will not get a grip and just not pay for these schemes, if we all hold off eventually we could stop such schemes and allow the guys who have experience and were flying in the good times, to return to the terms and conditions they were used to 4 years ago, instead of sitting at home whilst some dreamer spunks another £30000 to fly a jet and take their well deserved RHS.


I don’t post much on these matters, but frustration has caused me to this time, can't imagine how those of you who qualified, working and were laid off are keeping it together watching this happen to your industry.

I wish you all the best and hope that you get something sorted soon. I genuinely feel for you.


Rant over.

Wee Weasley Welshman

It is a Nightmare.

Total Nightmare.


Wake up sweating Nightmare.



Doesn't matter if you are thinking of training, are training have finished training or like me have >10,000hrs of command jet time. Its a nightmare.

Wherever you are on the career ladder the bottom run keeps sinking lower and faster than you thought possible. The end result is that your rung also sinks.

I would like nothing more than to get back to the situation of ten years ago whereby an airline hired you, based on selection tests and interview, then paid for your MCC rating, Type Rating and Line Training whilst putting you in a hotel and paying you a starting salary (which was my experience).

Sadly Gordon Browns debt bubble based on 15% house price inflation means there is a seemingly endless supply of Wannabes willing to pay right up to and past the first passenger carrying flight.



The rot will bring down the tree.



WWW

VdV

If its so much of a nightmare why dont you all do something!? Why dont you at least try to start some form of action, oh I forgot your union is a pointless waste of space. The cretinous evil that runs CTC must love reading these threads, laughing at all the anger and knowing full well that no one, no matter how angry, will ever do anything. You're all as bad as each other. This industry deserves to be thrown to the dogs.

EK4457

Not wanting to get caught up in the doom and gloom and also not argueing with you WWW, but where do you get those hourly rates from?

Is that just based on the latest CTC scam?

EK

Mooney12

That was my experience, 3 and a half years ago and many others more recently. Aside from Ryanair, this is a fairly new phenomenon, brought about by the downturn.

I agree, it's unlikely Easyjet will go back to anything better than this, but there still are more traditional airlines out there, with plans to recruit in 2011, who still do the above.

It's over at Easyjet, Ryanair and no doubt some other airlines. But there still are some other reasonable deals left once the upturn comes about and more people start recruiting.

In the long run, there will still be a pilot shortage. May sound silly right now, but air travel is still expected to grow substantially over the coming years. When that happens, I hope it puts sufficient pressure on airlines to stop this current rot in its tracks.

Lets not forget, that only 18 months ago, there was talk of BA re-starting it's cadet scheme again, as they were finding it difficult to recruit enough new pilots of the required standard. I know for a fact that was true and was only stopped by the shuddering credit crunch!

RoyHudd

Just who "expects air travel to grow significantly?"

Not the airlines, nor the airport operators, nor the Air Traffic authorities.

Price of oil will continue to rise, economies worldwide are in ultra-long torpor, airliner leasing is becoming increasingly costly, and will continue, unit costs of new airliners are rising, airfares and air travel costs are projected to rise exponentially....and yet there are wishful thinkers here who believe an upturn is just around the corner. This naive viewpoint is irresponsible and stupid.

Apart from agreeing with WWW, who is at the sharp end, there is nothing further for me to say. (You optimists will be mighty relieved!). And although I am in a secure widebody job, I cannot but wish to help those considering throwing their money away. I have been extremely lucky so far. New entrants haven't got a chance....unless they join the military.

Wee Weasley Welshman

£8 an hour roughly comes from taking the CTC easyJet Block Hour rate, taking off the deduction for the type rating then applying whats left after tax to the Duty Hours and then stretching it over a year rather than 6 months of summer season.

Roughly works out at about £8 an hour.


Its not exact and its not strictly true but it does serve to contextualise the fact that the role of deputy airline commander is now attracting supermarket shelf stackers rates.

The only solution is for demand to exceed supply. Sadly the Wannabe zombie army stretches from horizon to horizon.


WWW

TheBeak

That's it. Exactly it. And that's if you can get to sleep through worry......and I am not being melodramatic. Even if you can go back to a job that pays you 50K a year, having done your nuts on one of these stupid scams you'll be forced to live like a shelf stacker.


If you must do pilot training, go modular, get an Irish accent and passport and apply to Ryanair - it's the only way.

FANS

Anyone currently training with CTC care to add their slant to all of this, or is everyone too petrified to post?

I am sure your post would be a great help to those thinking about this scheme.

Ollie23

I'm about half way through.


This just about encapsulates things;

blackred1443

So if your halfway through you started about 8 months ago. Can i ask why. Even at that stage their must have been a lot swimming around in the holdpool, the perfect storm was brewing even then. I really dont envy you, i think your staring down the gun of bankruptcy.The jobs situation is going to get alot worse me thinks.

I must add i have flown with some ctc intructors lately who are contracted in at my airline and its interesting to hear their opinion on the future jobs market even now. They clearly so used to talking this drive they have started to believe it, or maybe they thought i was naive enough to believe this tripe

Rj111

Heck, am i glad i failed phase 3 a couple of years back.

v6g

Just out of interest, can I ask ... is your loan at a variable rate or fixed - and if so for how long?

Just curious.

The African Dude

djfingerscrossed... a couple of years back, Phase 3 - would have landed him in the holdpool next to me...

x933

Me too. Lucky, no?!

kwb911

Quote:

djfingerscrossed... a couple of years back, Phase 3 - would have landed him in the holdpool next to me...

I think he means if you had finished your training a couple of years ago not just starting

Two years ago CTC was still placing cadets and down turn was just about to happen.

R T Jones

How funny, in related videos at the top there is one shown with a yellow box around it. "Debt Help - Get Out Of Debt Legally - Write Off Debt Today - Guaranteed Debt Reduction"
as a promoted video. Youtube is so clever these days!

ZeBedie

AH is on his way out - its Stelios who needs to watch that video.

And do the CAA have a view on F/O's being forced to sleep in a car before their duties? If they do, it probably goes along the lines of 'it is an individuals responsibility to ensure he/she is adequately rested before a duty'. Well individuals are failing in their duty to obtain adequate rest. So are the CAA going to drag themselves away from their cosy subsidised canteen and do some regulating? Nah, thought not.

Throttle to Bottle

Reading these posts I can see why everyone is so angry about this mess. Hell, so am I, furious, this isn't what I signed up to 2 years ago but I wonder if you can put yourselves in my shoes and take the decision all of us at CTC are struggling to make.

I have invested £65,000 and can't afford the repayments. I have spent a year doing f*** all (not through lack of trying) sat in the hold pool and no other career options available to me with 2 years of piloting on my CV. I am being offered a really **** deal, I know that and I hate the powers that be for it, but what do I do?

Am I better off showing two fingers to the industry and take to begging with my head held high? Or should I go, sit in the 'shiny jet' even for a few hours of warmth every day and a warm bite to eat (if I'm lucky) and hope that I am taking the right step towards one day having a proper career? I don't have to give £33k up front which is a good job as I don't have it. It will just come out of my wage...maybe whats left will help me afford some wall filler to close up the holes in the ceiling of the **** hole I will have to live in, and maybe a little bread and butter. Boy my parents are proud of what this industry has turned their son into.

I await the phone call saying I have a decision to make but in the mean time I'd be interested in your comments. Not slating over the top harassing comments, constructive comments of what other choices I have.