Introduction of Anti-Ageism Regulations 1st October?

[waveydavey]

I think it's worth remembering that we are discussing the differences in human performance while at the controls of commercial aircraft. I don't believe there will be very much between a 23 year old and a 35 year old at this level. Operating supersonic aircraft for example, then yes I agree there is an undeniable increase in performance for the younger person.
As for training - if both ages have recently passed ATPL's then the question of being able to learn has been proven.

[dxbpilot]

Is it really that bad to employ younger people over older people when a airline has to train a person to do his job(i know most people pay for their type but what about the line training?) ? They obviously want to get the longest amount of working time back from their investment especially when there is the retirement age rules in place for pilots.

I'm not saying that a person who has undertaken their pilot career at a later stage in life should have no chance of a job, but it is to be expected that it may be more difficult.

good luck with the job searches

[moggiee]

Originally Posted by waveydavey

Operating supersonic aircraft for example, then yes I agree there is an undeniable increase in performance for the younger person.

Do you mean supersonic military aircraft or Concorde? I might agree with you if you are talking about Tornados or Typhoons, but not if you are talking about Concorde.

Life is a trade off between reactions, eyesight etc. and experience. I have flown with excellent older people and awful younger ones. I have also flown with excellent young crew and awful older ones!

It is down to the individual - experience, age, ability, reactions, ATTITUDE (above all else), personality etc. etc. etc. are the factors that make a person either suitable or not. From a Multi Crew viewpoint, I believe that by and large life experience counts for more than many people realise - people with experience of working in teams bring valuable skills to the flightdeck. They make take a little longer to pick up the threads of what they are learning, but often the overall package is more effective.

Mind you, an employer needs to consider return upon investment. If you need to invest time, energy, money and resources into training then you need to be fairly sure that the trainee will be a) able to complete the training successfully and b) there long enough to pay back the expense.

[Northern Highflyer]

They obviously want to get the longest amount of working time back from their investment especially when there is the retirement age rules in place for pilots.

Very true, but where is the evidence that a 23 year old will stay with a company longer than a 43 year old ?

Reading the posts in the Easyjet thread, many of the CTC cadets are bailing out for BA after 12 months. Not much return on investment there then.

[scroggs]

Originally Posted by waveydavey

I think it's worth remembering that we are discussing the differences in human performance while at the controls of commercial aircraft.

No we're not. We're discussing legislation. The two are not remotely linked.

As for training - if both ages have recently passed ATPL's then the question of being able to learn has been proven.

Not true. Until a compulsory, demanding time limit is placed on training, the mere possession of the qualification is a very imperfect comment on ability and suitability for employment, and is one of the major reasons why employers build in further selection filters. There is potentially a world of difference between someone who has completed zero to CPL/IR with ME and MCC within, say, a 15-month timescale, no failures and first-time passes at all exams and another who's taken three or four years, failed a few exams and skill tests, and finally gets there out of sheer bloody-mindedness (and deep pockets). That's not to say that the latter is automatically unsuitable, but it's much more difficult to make an objective judgement based on such a training record.

The military have age restrictions for a number of very good and demonstrable reasons, not all of which are appropriate or applicable to civilian flying. The successful completion of basic fATPL training should be sufficient to take an applicant on to type-specific training, but it's not - because the playing field isn't level. Whether it ever will be is open to debate.

Anyway, that's an aside! Back to the ramifications of the legislation, please...

Scroggs

[Flying Farmer]

Scroggs I fully agree with what you have to say BUT as an older modular candidate (44 now) who got through in minimal time ie: matched the 15 months you suggested and with first time passes my observations are that ageism is rife within the industry.

Yes I can back this up, but it would be foolish as the industry is too small, do you see where I am coming from

I await the new legislation with baited breath, although as I have said recently I suspect little will change.

[dartagnan]

do you remember the "age of cristal "movie, when older than 40 yo,you must die or shut by cops...
IS THIS THE KIND OF SOCIETY YOU WANT?
----

"Some employment lawyers, citing experience in other countries, including the United States and Ireland, have predicted that the latest age discrimination legislation will prompt a significant rise in employment tribunal cases."

good new for our attorneys!

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and here for recruiters : to avoid you some troubles(read 5 times every monday morning)

The regulations will:

• prohibit discrimination in terms of recruitment, promotion and training;
• prohibit unjustified retirement ages of below 65 years;
• remove the current age limit for unfair dismissal claims and redundancy payments;
• introduce a duty on employers to consider an employee’s request to continue working beyond retirement age;
• require employers to inform employees at least six months in advance of their intended retirement date, and their right to request to work beyond that date.

[nomercy]

The new law will hopefully give older guys more opportunities. The problem is getting to the interview stage and having the opportunity to show your worth to the company. I am sure that many airlines currently employ screening methods which immediately eliminate all people over a certain age. When the new law comes in they will not be able to do this and they will be watched very closely. Yes they can always find a reason to decline you at interview but at least you have had the chance to put your case forward!

[dartagnan]

Originally Posted by nomercy

but at least you have had the chance to put your case forward!

exactly, you will have the occasion to present yourself in person...this mean you can not write your age on your CV.
and if they call you and ask for your age, you have the right to lie because asking for your age will be illegal...
--------
‘Any employer who has not got age equality as a priority in their business is going to be in trouble’.

yep, he will!!!

[Flying Farmer]

Thats done it for me then I look 50 already

[scroggs]

Originally Posted by Flying Farmer

Scroggs I fully agree with what you have to say BUT as an older modular candidate (44 now) who got through in minimal time ie: matched the 15 months you suggested and with first time passes my observations are that ageism is rife within the industry.
Yes I can back this up, but it would be foolish as the industry is too small, do you see where I am coming from
I await the new legislation with baited breath, although as I have said recently I suspect little will change.

FF, I very much hope that the new legislation will allow you, and others like you, to be assessed solely on your merits. However, like you I'm sceptical, It's just too easy to disguise ageism (or any other discrimination) as 'getting the best people for the job'. That said, a consistent record of taking only young people will be difficult to defend, so there may be hope...

Scroggs

[The Real Slim Shady]

Just as an aside, we plan to utilise active retired people on a part time basis to augment the contracted staff as they have better life skills, more patience and can problem solve effectively. In some instances they are infinitely more suitable than younger staff.

And I dont have a problem with older, newer qualified pilots either so long as they understand the limitations imposed by lack of experience; same goes for new 200 hr guys.

[dartagnan]

Originally Posted by Flying Farmer

Thats done it for me then I look 50 already

well my friend, I give you 2 choices:

1.you shoot yourself a bullet in the next 48 hours.You are not authorize to live after 40, you are the gangraine of our society and we must get rid of you...

2.Or I send governmental agents to take care of you...

(hide yourself until the 1st oct then you will be free .)

[backofthedrag]

There is hope for the older inexperienced pilot wanting to join an airline , after October 1st.
Any airline wishing to retain a seniority list would need to show that this did not directly or indirectly discriminate against any group protected by discrimination legislation.
The use of such a list for redundancy , for example, would need to show no great imbalance between those retained and those made redundant in terms of gender, race, creed , sexual orientation etc . Normally , of course , in a large airline, the statistical distribution would show no obvious bias .
However , now that age comes into the equation , the fact is that in this industry , the younger ones are at the bottom of the list, and this could be seen to be disadvantageous to a particular age group . Any airline wishing to maintain that situation would need to justify it or risk a challenge under the new regulations with unlimited liability.
It might be easier to to recruit a few oldies at the bottom of the list , and , hey presto , the situation is solved.
This is a very different situation than trying to prove you were discriminated against in a job application because of your age - the airlines will need you !

[ToneTheWone]

Can anybody see what the airlines have done over the last few years by prefering younger candidates?

They've been filling their boots with young fresh faced pilots knowing that after 1st October they will have to give us oldies a chance.

So old fogies of the world stand up and be proud. Suck in that pot belly, wear your combe-over with pride - our time has come

[jamestkirk]

Interview stage

Getting an interview is the hard part for me being 35.

I find it astonishing that a numeracy test etc. would give a more balanced view of an individual that a good structured interview. Some call it screening. I call it lazy.

Personally that it the biggest frustration for me.

ToneTheWone : why did'nt yo say anything about the combe over being back in fashion. I have just had a grade 2 done all over. You will easily get the job ahead of me now.

Oh, and in the movie 'Logans Run', you had to sacrafice yourself at 30 years of age. Apparatrenly you are not capable of flying an aircraft after that age so the story must have been written by members of GAPAN, BA, CTC, Easyjet etc.

[ICING AOA]

I think this new legislation will be (maybe?) benefic to old people who want to do a ground staff job, or becoming a cashier in a supermarket, things like that, but I dont think airlines will change their policy about pilots recruitments.
It is already hard like HELL for a very young pilot to find a pilot job without experience anyway !

[ToneTheWone]

Dear James

Don't be too down hearted about missing out on the combe-over. If you've got a bit of a bald patch great, if not the create one and draw attention to it by making it stand out. I find bees wax does a wonderful job.

When you do get an interview, I would also suggest a couple of other tricks. Such as tilting your head to one side and pretend to be just a little deaf. Express an interest in gardening and bowling - not ten pin as this will give the game away! Refer to yourself as Jim and not James and wear sensible shoes. But to really impress them, wear a tie with just a hint of yesterdays dinner on it!

Good luck

[jamestkirk]

Tone The Wone

With that advice, may i say that you are a god amongst mortals.

I would even put you up there with David hasselhoff

[Stratman]

I would love to see this age discrimination act being adopted or being used by pilots who consider that their age was the reason for their applications being rejected.Trouble is that its very difficult to prove as the prime reason.
Airlines will tell you that ageism has never been their policy,but self evidently it is normally their practise. Depending on who is running the show at the time their reasons for age cut-offs vary, most of them nonsense in my experience.Their has always been an eliteist overtone in this industry and that has set it apart from many jobs giving weight to outmoded and irrelavent examinations and strange selection procedures , very little of which mean anything really. Ultimately flying an aeroplane is just another job, some people do it very well and are very accurate, others are fine but maybe not so polished, this is the same in any industry and rarely has anything to do with age.One of the worst things about aviation is people running around with the attitude that being a pilot is something special and therefore the preserve of certain age groups or people with certain accents.I came from a marine engineering background where after 8 years of training being in charge of a 250,000 tonne ships engine room made the inside of any flightdeck that I have worked on look very bare by comparison. A far more complex job in every way believe me , yet there were none of the attitudes and predudices and any of the engineers that I worked with would have found flying very straightforward probabaly boring , but at least you remain clean. In conclusion you need a balance of ages in any job after all you have to sit next to one another for long enough, and I get fed up with people who have never heard of Led Zeppelin or Barry Sheene.