What the hell are we supposed to do?
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Long burning question!
Is my gcse grade e in maths bad as i did do well in maths after gcse but no qualification saying i am better?
here's my big question:
When i see these sponsorship schemes with airlines i am under the conlusion that if i got upto FI stage on my own that they would make me do the whole sponsorship training
like this:
Aug 06. Recruitment for 2007 started. Closing date 30 Oct 06. Min requirement of fATPL, MCC, Class1 medical and right of work in EU. Links through CTC and OAT. They DO NOT accept CVs, online application only. Email: [email protected]
Link: http://www.thomascookjobs.co.uk/USER/airline/pilot.htm
Jan 05. Planning to open up recruitment sometime in Aug 05 for the start of 2006 vacancies. Keep an eye on their website for details. Frozen ATPL and less than 500 hrs then recruiting for their Cadet scheme through CTC. Direct entry req ATPL and min 1500 hrs. They took on 20 direct entry candidates in 2004, as well as those that were held in a pool.
does that mean i shouldnt do it myself without ctc inorder to get with an airline with an FATPL thus wasting £30000 because they need them from ctc.
Do you think there's an easy route for an FI into airlines like mytravel and first choice?
here's my big question:
When i see these sponsorship schemes with airlines i am under the conlusion that if i got upto FI stage on my own that they would make me do the whole sponsorship training
like this:
Aug 06. Recruitment for 2007 started. Closing date 30 Oct 06. Min requirement of fATPL, MCC, Class1 medical and right of work in EU. Links through CTC and OAT. They DO NOT accept CVs, online application only. Email: [email protected]
Link: http://www.thomascookjobs.co.uk/USER/airline/pilot.htm
Jan 05. Planning to open up recruitment sometime in Aug 05 for the start of 2006 vacancies. Keep an eye on their website for details. Frozen ATPL and less than 500 hrs then recruiting for their Cadet scheme through CTC. Direct entry req ATPL and min 1500 hrs. They took on 20 direct entry candidates in 2004, as well as those that were held in a pool.
does that mean i shouldnt do it myself without ctc inorder to get with an airline with an FATPL thus wasting £30000 because they need them from ctc.
Do you think there's an easy route for an FI into airlines like mytravel and first choice?
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there is no easy route to become a pilot with a job!
one of my friend, got the job BEFORE to become a commercial pilot. Right after his JAR license, he went directly for his jet training and now he flies as a copilot with a family member who owns the plane...
everybody is asking him if they have a job, his answer was: "no, I dont have a job for you, and I can lose my job tomorrow and never get a job back"
what I want say here, it is a risky business, if you can not afford to loose your money and be poor, and maybe never get an airline job(or not an airline job forever)...do something else
Recently I have been in Italy in a meeting. I have met lot of good chaps(50guys).Most told them it was not right to not get an airline job with 300hours...
a captain told them"and what about pilots who are still waiting after 10 years?why dont you go fly and come back later?"
one of my friend, got the job BEFORE to become a commercial pilot. Right after his JAR license, he went directly for his jet training and now he flies as a copilot with a family member who owns the plane...
everybody is asking him if they have a job, his answer was: "no, I dont have a job for you, and I can lose my job tomorrow and never get a job back"
what I want say here, it is a risky business, if you can not afford to loose your money and be poor, and maybe never get an airline job(or not an airline job forever)...do something else
Recently I have been in Italy in a meeting. I have met lot of good chaps(50guys).Most told them it was not right to not get an airline job with 300hours...
a captain told them"and what about pilots who are still waiting after 10 years?why dont you go fly and come back later?"
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Don't get too dispondent wingbar
Until recently I was in exactly the same position but with more like 1000 hrs and feeling thoroghly fed up with being completely ignored by locally based companies who instead chose min houred integrated youngsters over locally based modular FIs. However within the past month I passed an interview for a TP operator and just found out this week I have another interview next week with another TP operator. It is worth pointing out that both of these companies have a history of employing modular older people and this was why I aimed at them. I really could no longer be arsed with putting the effort in with other companies that I had lost all respect for and aiming at one or two excellent small companies has paid dividends.
Dried Ears,
Thanks for replying. I think your photography work is more intensive and professional than mine. Mine is very casual so will probaly ask for just over half what you are payed per hour. It seems a pretty good raw flying experience job and felt very good putting in the remarks column in my log 'aerial photography'. Great to get hours where someone else has paid for it no matter what the hours are in.
To this general conversation topic sending CV's and ringing companies and getting little response or good feedback is frustrating spent many days in dispair. Keep ploging away spoke to BA 777 captain said he went through exactly the same situation.
All the best,
Mooneyboy
Thanks for replying. I think your photography work is more intensive and professional than mine. Mine is very casual so will probaly ask for just over half what you are payed per hour. It seems a pretty good raw flying experience job and felt very good putting in the remarks column in my log 'aerial photography'. Great to get hours where someone else has paid for it no matter what the hours are in.
To this general conversation topic sending CV's and ringing companies and getting little response or good feedback is frustrating spent many days in dispair. Keep ploging away spoke to BA 777 captain said he went through exactly the same situation.
All the best,
Mooneyboy
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I have been turned down by a TP operator(I live 10 minutes drive from the airport), reason: "too many hours, we don't want you, you will leave us after 1 year"...
guys who have been hired with less 300h (and live 500km away), have now more experience than me, make more money than me, and are very happy with their new job...
having no experience, is sometimes a good thing!
guys who have been hired with less 300h (and live 500km away), have now more experience than me, make more money than me, and are very happy with their new job...
having no experience, is sometimes a good thing!
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In agreement 100%
I wish I had absolutely no experience now and was integrated.....it's such a shame this industry does this to people, again another sleepless night, the banks just called, (they do most mornings) and again me in tears......
I wish I had absolutely no experience now and was integrated.....it's such a shame this industry does this to people, again another sleepless night, the banks just called, (they do most mornings) and again me in tears......
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Cheer up.
6 months ago I was in the exact spot you were in. I remember one day I was so down. Not even climbing helped cheer me up that day (and that is something that usually makes me in a really good mood).
I saw people around me getting jobs and som in airlines that I thought I had had a good chance in allready. I fell in the trap of becomming bitter and eventually it fell into depression. And hear this: Being bitter and depressed is no good vantage point for getting a job! Fight it with everything you can throw at it. Even if it seems pointless (thats the first trick bitterness will try on you...), try to focus and see the little amusements in life. And dont spend too much time on the forums, there's so much bulls:/t flying around in here, that alone will make one bitter and depressed.
Now to some practical advise. You have exactly what a TP operator wants. Therefore, focus on TP operators and work like a commando. Read up on your subject, make the assault, fall back and watch what happens. Follow up and make shure you got the results you wanted. Dont be affraid to look into other countries. Norway has a lot of small TP operators and I suggest you take a peek at www.scanair.no. Chances are they will want you to speak a scandinavian language, but if you are in the right place at the right time, it wont matter.
Keep on trucking and believe it will happen. In the meantime, read the Alcemist. It solved a lot of problems for me.
/LnS
6 months ago I was in the exact spot you were in. I remember one day I was so down. Not even climbing helped cheer me up that day (and that is something that usually makes me in a really good mood).
I saw people around me getting jobs and som in airlines that I thought I had had a good chance in allready. I fell in the trap of becomming bitter and eventually it fell into depression. And hear this: Being bitter and depressed is no good vantage point for getting a job! Fight it with everything you can throw at it. Even if it seems pointless (thats the first trick bitterness will try on you...), try to focus and see the little amusements in life. And dont spend too much time on the forums, there's so much bulls:/t flying around in here, that alone will make one bitter and depressed.
Now to some practical advise. You have exactly what a TP operator wants. Therefore, focus on TP operators and work like a commando. Read up on your subject, make the assault, fall back and watch what happens. Follow up and make shure you got the results you wanted. Dont be affraid to look into other countries. Norway has a lot of small TP operators and I suggest you take a peek at www.scanair.no. Chances are they will want you to speak a scandinavian language, but if you are in the right place at the right time, it wont matter.
Keep on trucking and believe it will happen. In the meantime, read the Alcemist. It solved a lot of problems for me.
/LnS
PPRuNe Handmaiden
"What are we supposed to do?"
A couple of guys here have cottoned onto it. Target the employers that are most likely to take you. Also, seek out the smaller operators and actually pay them a visit. No time? Too busy? ok, stay where you are and wail about no prospects.
If it's become screamingly obvious that "Jet operator A" or "charter airline B" won't look at you it's time to change tack. Seek out the smaller operators, whether they be turboprop airlines or smaller biz jet operators. (who by the way are flat out!!)
If you're not prepared to shift a couple of hundred miles for a decent job (ie better than the one you're in) then I would suggest that this is not the career for you. Writing letters to the smaller operators may work but most likely what will work is a face at the door.
Tactics and strategy (plus a good scan) is what's required. You folks do know that an airline is only allowed a certain percentage of inexperienced pilots? So, if an airline is getting bulk of their low houred pilots from CTC and the like do you think that's your best target? By all means have a go but I think you know what the chances are. Does the airline traditionally look at instructors favourably? There are a couple of well regarded piston charter operators that are a great source for pilots.
Look at the new emerging markets. Right now I can tell you that just about every one who's got a bizjet is flat out in the UK. That's an area of aviation that is growing.
easyJet have lowered their requirements, Virgin Atlantic's still hiring, Ryanair have changed their requirements, Netjets Europe need a min of 150 pilots next year. You're probably thinking. Great... they all need X hours. Yes they do, but they need to get the pilots from somewhere which means vacancies in the less well known and/or turboprop companies.
The employment scene hasn't been this good since prior to 2001!! The next slump (which will come, just as night follows day) is estimated to be about 4 years away. (Industry is cyclical. 7-10 year cycle)
A couple of guys here have cottoned onto it. Target the employers that are most likely to take you. Also, seek out the smaller operators and actually pay them a visit. No time? Too busy? ok, stay where you are and wail about no prospects.
If it's become screamingly obvious that "Jet operator A" or "charter airline B" won't look at you it's time to change tack. Seek out the smaller operators, whether they be turboprop airlines or smaller biz jet operators. (who by the way are flat out!!)
If you're not prepared to shift a couple of hundred miles for a decent job (ie better than the one you're in) then I would suggest that this is not the career for you. Writing letters to the smaller operators may work but most likely what will work is a face at the door.
Tactics and strategy (plus a good scan) is what's required. You folks do know that an airline is only allowed a certain percentage of inexperienced pilots? So, if an airline is getting bulk of their low houred pilots from CTC and the like do you think that's your best target? By all means have a go but I think you know what the chances are. Does the airline traditionally look at instructors favourably? There are a couple of well regarded piston charter operators that are a great source for pilots.
Look at the new emerging markets. Right now I can tell you that just about every one who's got a bizjet is flat out in the UK. That's an area of aviation that is growing.
easyJet have lowered their requirements, Virgin Atlantic's still hiring, Ryanair have changed their requirements, Netjets Europe need a min of 150 pilots next year. You're probably thinking. Great... they all need X hours. Yes they do, but they need to get the pilots from somewhere which means vacancies in the less well known and/or turboprop companies.
The employment scene hasn't been this good since prior to 2001!! The next slump (which will come, just as night follows day) is estimated to be about 4 years away. (Industry is cyclical. 7-10 year cycle)
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Just to add another voice to this.........
Scroggs, P Pete, and Reddo know what they are talking about
The person that secures that job, is the person that uses a little initiative, a little determination, and a lot of persistence. Modular/Intergrated..who gives a S**t, we know very well the spin that comes out of certain FTO's ( its marketing and nothing more, remember they want your money!) promising this that and the next thing.
I can tell you from personal experience that recruitment admin is usually initially handled by an office junior, who wouldnt know the difference between intergrated and modular if it jumped up and bit them on the arse..so its all to play for.
Am I speaking from experience? (we all have our own stories) Ive lived in 4 different countries, been made redundant 3 times..and had to do 3 license conversions. I got my first job (paradropping) after driving 400 miles, sleeping in my car, and catching the chief pilot as he arrived at the dropzone that day.
It took me 2 years to get an interview when I got to the UK....and yet now I'm flying 757's.......so it is down to you making your own luck
No one on here will give you a free lunch...but there are plenty on here (and in the industry) that know what your going through..and can offer good advice, listen to them, is the best advice I can offer
Scroggs, P Pete, and Reddo know what they are talking about
The person that secures that job, is the person that uses a little initiative, a little determination, and a lot of persistence. Modular/Intergrated..who gives a S**t, we know very well the spin that comes out of certain FTO's ( its marketing and nothing more, remember they want your money!) promising this that and the next thing.
I can tell you from personal experience that recruitment admin is usually initially handled by an office junior, who wouldnt know the difference between intergrated and modular if it jumped up and bit them on the arse..so its all to play for.
Am I speaking from experience? (we all have our own stories) Ive lived in 4 different countries, been made redundant 3 times..and had to do 3 license conversions. I got my first job (paradropping) after driving 400 miles, sleeping in my car, and catching the chief pilot as he arrived at the dropzone that day.
It took me 2 years to get an interview when I got to the UK....and yet now I'm flying 757's.......so it is down to you making your own luck
No one on here will give you a free lunch...but there are plenty on here (and in the industry) that know what your going through..and can offer good advice, listen to them, is the best advice I can offer
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Firstly, one has to realize that an fATPL is only the first step in the direction of getting a paid job as a pilot. Secondly, we all knew that it would be tough, but it seems like lots of aspiring new pilots think the financial hurdle is the biggest. Well, in my view it's a combination of being able to get the job you want and willing to "play it by their rules". All those LoCos out there are screaming for pilots, yet here you are sitting on the fence waiting for better opportunities. I know very well how much sacrifice funding your own TR will cause, but joining a LoCo will give you a fantastic start, and if all goes well, you become a Captain within 3-5 years. This has changed the industry completely, because your expected "life-salary" will increase alot. It would take 10-20 years to become a Captain on a jet, just a decade ago. You get an extra 10 years with a Captain's salary on the bargain, instead of flying SEP's for those ten years in the start of your carreer. I know it's a gamble, but we all knew that from the start...so just "play it by their rules".
Negative pessamistic thoughts will get you nowhere. Giving up and feeling sorry for yourself will contribute towards your failure. It's the willingness to push and go on when all feels lost that will take you higher than you could ever dream of.
EpsilonVaz
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For all of you like me who fight to get up in the morning, make a full breakfast of cereal, toast and yoghurt and then log onto to pprune for inspiration on what to do today by way of getting your first gig - always start with a look at threads which start with someone asking about the interview at Jet2 or the selection training at Ezy - before looking at these threads. Everyday I make a point of finding at least one luck git with an interview or even a job (and beleive me there's always at least a couple every day who post). Then go to the HOW TO FIND A JOB thread. Then start again.... 
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I like these threads cos it actually gives me hope of getting a job as clearly some people can't see the wood for the trees. Let me expand a bit. Lets say you decide that you want to be an instructor. Hopefully you realise by doing this that the recruiting world has changed and you will no longer be held in high regard and have TP operators falling over themselves to employ you when you reach 1500 hours flying a C152. Having said that there are ways to make it work to your advantage. Lets take 2 imaginary instructors and call them Clem and Bob.
1) Clem went out and did his FI at the cheapest place going - incidentally this was his approach to all of his flight training. No job was on offer during or after his FI training. It took a while but eventually he got a job in lets say North Wales with Sleepy Slims Flying Club. They operate a C152 and a C172. The owner reckons they are getting a twin in a few months time and the weather is awesome all year round. You will easily get 600 hours a year the owner tells our budding FI. The pay isn't great but Clem is sure that the twin time will more than make up for it.
2) Bob thought a bit more about what he wanted to do with his FI time and how to make the most of it. He wouldn't settle for a smaller club. He did his FI training at the best school possible and was snapped up before he finished his training. He started at a school that had a couple of twins and plenty of single engine aircraft. It was a busy school with an active club and a great social side as well. The weather was slightly better where Clem was as well. But Bob knew he was onto a winner as the airfield was a hive of activity. There were biz jets based there, light charters, medivac and the odd commercial flight. It was a busy school so Bob knew that he would be able to get some twin time once he had proved himself.
The school never got the twin that was promised and Clem is still there getting his 200-300 hours a year on the C152 when it isn't tech. His flights are mainly trial lessons. Bob on the other hand was networking from day one. He got to know the engineers who just happened to work on the bizjets as well as fix the schools aircraft. They introduced him to some of the commerical pilots operating the aircraft. One day he bumped into one of the pilots in the flying club and brought him some beers. Over the course of the next 6 months he blagged a jump seat ride or two. Then one day the owner came over looking for him. It seems his mate the pilot was moving onto pastures new and his name had been put forward. Bob resigned there and then and has a grin as wide as his face whilst his mate Clem is still wondering where it all went wrong
1) Clem went out and did his FI at the cheapest place going - incidentally this was his approach to all of his flight training. No job was on offer during or after his FI training. It took a while but eventually he got a job in lets say North Wales with Sleepy Slims Flying Club. They operate a C152 and a C172. The owner reckons they are getting a twin in a few months time and the weather is awesome all year round. You will easily get 600 hours a year the owner tells our budding FI. The pay isn't great but Clem is sure that the twin time will more than make up for it.
2) Bob thought a bit more about what he wanted to do with his FI time and how to make the most of it. He wouldn't settle for a smaller club. He did his FI training at the best school possible and was snapped up before he finished his training. He started at a school that had a couple of twins and plenty of single engine aircraft. It was a busy school with an active club and a great social side as well. The weather was slightly better where Clem was as well. But Bob knew he was onto a winner as the airfield was a hive of activity. There were biz jets based there, light charters, medivac and the odd commercial flight. It was a busy school so Bob knew that he would be able to get some twin time once he had proved himself.
The school never got the twin that was promised and Clem is still there getting his 200-300 hours a year on the C152 when it isn't tech. His flights are mainly trial lessons. Bob on the other hand was networking from day one. He got to know the engineers who just happened to work on the bizjets as well as fix the schools aircraft. They introduced him to some of the commerical pilots operating the aircraft. One day he bumped into one of the pilots in the flying club and brought him some beers. Over the course of the next 6 months he blagged a jump seat ride or two. Then one day the owner came over looking for him. It seems his mate the pilot was moving onto pastures new and his name had been put forward. Bob resigned there and then and has a grin as wide as his face whilst his mate Clem is still wondering where it all went wrong
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Well put...especially "some people can't see the wood for the trees."
And if you include two guys funding their own TR's, one would easily see their different future paths. One being an FI on SEP's, one flying biz-jets, one struggling a few years getting into a jet cockpit, and one flying 320's/737's within a few months. It's that easy...just take your pick. But of course, getting to the point where you actually can afford paying for a TR is not an easy route. You need to involve family, friends, your friends friends++(been there, done that). But in the end if you succeed, I mean when you succeed, you're alot better off than you-know-who...
However, I will recommend to get into a TRSS rather than just buying it, just like that..
And if you include two guys funding their own TR's, one would easily see their different future paths. One being an FI on SEP's, one flying biz-jets, one struggling a few years getting into a jet cockpit, and one flying 320's/737's within a few months. It's that easy...just take your pick. But of course, getting to the point where you actually can afford paying for a TR is not an easy route. You need to involve family, friends, your friends friends++(been there, done that). But in the end if you succeed, I mean when you succeed, you're alot better off than you-know-who...
However, I will recommend to get into a TRSS rather than just buying it, just like that..
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The banks are after me big style......so I cannot afford the ryanair TR nor could I live from the appauling salary, that excluds me and all of the other very poor people from that wagon.....
WB
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Wing, you have recieved some bloody good advice on here, don't go spoiling it by moaning about your lot. MOST of us have been there...you now have a choice..either get busy getting a job, or get busy moaning about it, its all really down to you.
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Wing,
Why not move schools for a change of scenery. Get onto a busier airport and get your nose stuck in. Give it 3 months in that environment and I'll bet your life changes for the better. A rolling stone...and all that.
OR
Start teaching CPL (if you are not restricted) for a wage boost. Try Cork for a change and get known. They all do business in the bar over there and you'll soon be chatting the the right people.
As has been mentioned, channel your frustrations and think your way out of this. I was actually kept awake by this thread last night, cos I am just about to start my FIC as a said. If it was that easy, every chancer would have a blue book.
Just a thought...have you tried the debt firm 08000 435435. Saw them on TV and they can freeze the interest and in some cases half the loan amount. Let me know, cos I could do with loosing some of my 60K, and I don't mean my Ground School Gut(KGS).
Well that needs to go too.
Why not move schools for a change of scenery. Get onto a busier airport and get your nose stuck in. Give it 3 months in that environment and I'll bet your life changes for the better. A rolling stone...and all that.
OR
Start teaching CPL (if you are not restricted) for a wage boost. Try Cork for a change and get known. They all do business in the bar over there and you'll soon be chatting the the right people.
As has been mentioned, channel your frustrations and think your way out of this. I was actually kept awake by this thread last night, cos I am just about to start my FIC as a said. If it was that easy, every chancer would have a blue book.
Just a thought...have you tried the debt firm 08000 435435. Saw them on TV and they can freeze the interest and in some cases half the loan amount. Let me know, cos I could do with loosing some of my 60K, and I don't mean my Ground School Gut(KGS).
Well that needs to go too.
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Wingbar: you need to keep the faith, and take note of some of the excellent advice offered by some of the above. potkettleblack has shown you the way it worked for me.
Although my story is more of a combination of the two examples he uses, the pointers are there.
I started flying in 2000, got the licences modularly and when I hit the hard wall I got an FI rating. I knew I couldn't survive on FI pay alone, so I did it part time along with a full-time job. It was hard work keeping both jobs going and I have no desire to work that hard ever again , but it worked!
I thoroughly enjoyed instructing and although a small school, I made good friends and connections. I also kept in contact with the colleagues I trained with. Eventually they all got jobs and it seemed like they were passing me by. They kept telling me to hang in there and it would happen.
They were right.
One of my friends got me an interview with a turbo-prop operator in Scotland. Most airlines place a great emphasis on recommendations. This is where keeping the faith comes in. You must retain your enthusiasm and try to remain positive. If you appear negative, you could blow it. If you havn't done so already, make contact with colleagues you trained with. I bet you some (if not most) at some point will get a job and be able to recommend you.
Be prepared to move. I moved from one end of the country to the other and took a massive pay cut to get the first job. I am now looking at just getting my full ATPL and my future prospects both on the pay and job fronts are very rosey.
One of my closest friends has also just got a job with a turbo-prop operator through recommendation. All of my training friends have now got airline jobs.
It may take years or months; it may take lots of money; it may be a jet or a turbo-prop; but whenever / however it happens believe me it will be worth it!!!
Keep the faith!!!
Although my story is more of a combination of the two examples he uses, the pointers are there.
I started flying in 2000, got the licences modularly and when I hit the hard wall I got an FI rating. I knew I couldn't survive on FI pay alone, so I did it part time along with a full-time job. It was hard work keeping both jobs going and I have no desire to work that hard ever again , but it worked!
I thoroughly enjoyed instructing and although a small school, I made good friends and connections. I also kept in contact with the colleagues I trained with. Eventually they all got jobs and it seemed like they were passing me by. They kept telling me to hang in there and it would happen.
They were right.
One of my friends got me an interview with a turbo-prop operator in Scotland. Most airlines place a great emphasis on recommendations. This is where keeping the faith comes in. You must retain your enthusiasm and try to remain positive. If you appear negative, you could blow it. If you havn't done so already, make contact with colleagues you trained with. I bet you some (if not most) at some point will get a job and be able to recommend you.
Be prepared to move. I moved from one end of the country to the other and took a massive pay cut to get the first job. I am now looking at just getting my full ATPL and my future prospects both on the pay and job fronts are very rosey.
One of my closest friends has also just got a job with a turbo-prop operator through recommendation. All of my training friends have now got airline jobs.
It may take years or months; it may take lots of money; it may be a jet or a turbo-prop; but whenever / however it happens belie
ve me it will be worth it!!! Keep the faith!!!
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Wingbar..
I'm in a similar situation financially, as I'm sure are many others.
Go and speak with you Bank Manager and explain the situation to them in great detail. Put it in writing and come up with a medium and long term payment proposal that shows them you know what the situation is and have a plan to re-pay. It may give you some breathing space if the terms of your loan are re-negotiated. Better still ask at some of the other banks if their T&C's are any better and move the debt to a lower APR or fixed APR.
Good luck.....you're not alone dude.
Cheers/Bob
I'm in a similar situation financially, as I'm sure are many others.
Go and speak with you Bank Manager and explain the situation to them in great detail. Put it in writing and come up with a medium and long term payment proposal that shows them you know what the situation is and have a plan to re-pay. It may give you some breathing space if the terms of your loan are re-negotiated. Better still ask at some of the other banks if their T&C's are any better and move the debt to a lower APR or fixed APR.
Good luck.....you're not alone dude.
Cheers/Bob