FlyBE Sponsorship 2007
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when it comes to flying a jobs a job and 26k with flybe on TP's is the same as BA Connect pay its Jet FO's. If you go for the scheme then fairplay to you, FlyBe are expanding as far as i'm aware and that means that for those pilots starting on £26k you'll soon be earning upwards of that and moving onto more money and potentially commands in those 5 years. Worst case scenario is you wait in the holding pool for a job, but they wouldn't be sponsoring courses if they didn't want the pilots. As a trainee at CCAT i'd like to have the added security (and lessed loan amount) of being on a part sponsored course.
At the end of the day people shouldn't be phased by it if its what they want to do. If i was elligible i'd go for it but alas i'm 4 months into the course already and i'm too young to apply for this years anyway. Best of luck to those of you who are going for it. I may well see you around cranfield in the near future!
At the end of the day people shouldn't be phased by it if its what they want to do. If i was elligible i'd go for it but alas i'm 4 months into the course already and i'm too young to apply for this years anyway. Best of luck to those of you who are going for it. I may well see you around cranfield in the near future!
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I'm still waiting for my application form, but in the mean time could someone post what the dates of the vasrious phases of the selection process are. What kind of time scale is it likely to be and the approx start date of the course?
(They had all these details on last years form so I guess they will this year)
Thanks!
(They had all these details on last years form so I guess they will this year)
Thanks!
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I guess that if there are people like Wazoo and JediDude who are willing to do this then fair play to them and Flybe. They've got it just right. Eager pilots on a 5 year contract.
Best of luck to you - it's always a gamble no matter which way you look at this industry. Lets hope you do well and guess right.
Best of luck to you - it's always a gamble no matter which way you look at this industry. Lets hope you do well and guess right.
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Originally Posted by CPL_Ace
I guess that if there are people like Wazoo and JediDude who are willing to do this then fair play to them and Flybe. They've got it just right. Eager pilots on a 5 year contract.
Suffice to say, you could do a lot worse that try for the Flybe scheme. I've been doing the figures on the various schemes available currently and trying to look at the long term costs involved rather than just what you have to stump up up front to begin with.
With Flybe and CCAT you can expect to have to pay ~£57,400 in the long term for you training (£37,644 + £3,960 deducted each year by Flybe - Accom is included in the 37k). Depending on financing of the £37k, need to add another £10,000 or so on top in terms of interests payments for the long term cost so lets say ~£70,000 for the total long term cost. Bonded against the cost of the type rating of £13,500 for 5 years. You'll be starting on at salary of £26,191 (£22,231 with repayments) on turboprops.
With Excel and OAT you can expect to have to pay ~£100,000 in the long term for the training (5 years of £18,000 + £10,000 accom). No bond as such, but repayments tax free by Excel for 5 years. Type rating is paid for by Excel. You'll be starting on a salary of ~£36,000 (but only £18,000 after repayments) on jets.
With CTC you can expect to have to pay ~£98,000 in the long term for the training (£84,000 total repayments + £4000 foundation + £10,000 accom). Bond for 7 years with monthly repayments of £1000, but can jump jobs and keep up repayments. Starting salary varies but you're looking at ~£30,000 (£18,000 with repayments) for Easyjet/Thomas Cook as far as I can work out and you'll be on jets most likely.
Other the other hand, basics costs for each of the three FTOs are as follows:
OAT: ~£60,000 + £4,000 (CAA/exams etc) + £10,000 (Accom) = £74,000
FTE: ~£63,000
Cabair: ~ £52,352 + £1692 (CAA) + £10,000 (Accom) = £64,000
I haven't included things like loans and repayments on the FTO costs since they will vary from person to person and what financing they are using. But expect to add another £15,000 - £20,000 on to those costs in interest for the long term costs. So you're looking in the region of £80,000 - £95,000 for those long term.
Conclusions:
-------------
From my rough calculations above, the Flybe scheme is rather favourable in comprison to the other schemes out there, and also against the FTOs directly.
You're argument then is that the bond against the type rating and the 2 year potential hold pool are a disadvantage. I think that has to come down to each persons personal opinion. It keeps me awake at night thinking of the size of the loans you need to take out these days without any gurantee of a job. And any scheme that offers me a greater (not necessarily certain) chance of a job is a big bonus in my eyes. Schemes such as CTC, Flybe/Cabair, Excel/OAT and even Atlantique/Highland air (although thats a different kettle of fish) all provide some greater chance of getting a job.
It is then down to the individual to weigh up how much they are willing to pay to get a greater chance of a job, and what the return is. For example, the Flybe/Cabair scheme and the Excel/OAT scheme both offer similar offers of job (we'll probably take you, but don't hold us to it etc), yet the prices of the schemes are vastly different. Similarly you could go directly to FTE or OAT and not be tied to any scheme and have a slightly decreased chance of getting a job. Each persons milage will vary depending on their opinions, choice, and situation.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I guess I should bring it back to the beginning by saying you could do a lot worse than to try and go for the Flybe/Cabair scheme!
** Big big disclaimer! Its quite likely I've miscalculted along the way or missed out some horrendous cost/factor. Don't flame me, just point it out and i'll adjust my views and thinking accordingly
Also, I haven't touch the modular/integrated route. Don't have the time, you know the story already anyway. Each to their own choices, financial situation, outlook on life, thoughts for the future etc. I'm only really thinking of people who are already considering some sort of integrated course I guess.
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Good effort Wazoo, its really refreshing to see someone approaching these things with logic rather than gut feel and then coming back on here moaning about how they made the wrong choice etc.
After reading through your calcs though I am not sure if you did/didn't take into account the difference in earnings. At somewhere like flybe you correctly point out that you earn circa £26k and flying a jet its £38k. At Flybe you are bonded for 5 years so someone flying jets will earn approx £60k more over the 5 years assuming that earnings went up at the same level - in reality I think its more as jet guys go up in higher annual increments. And we know from ppjn that Flybe are capped at £30k in the first 5 years.
The other point I would make is that by not being bonded you could potentially say in year 3 or 4 be somewhere paying significantly more than what excel/mytravel etc were offering and the earnings differential would be much more significant. Lets say for example you got 900 hours pa on jets then after 3-4 years a legacy carrier like Cathay could be an option where you would expect annual salary to be over £50k plus flight pay and all of the perks such as interlines etc.
Good stuff.
After reading through your calcs though I am not sure if you did/didn't take into account the difference in earnings. At somewhere like flybe you correctly point out that you earn circa £26k and flying a jet its £38k. At Flybe you are bonded for 5 years so someone flying jets will earn approx £60k more over the 5 years assuming that earnings went up at the same level - in reality I think its more as jet guys go up in higher annual increments. And we know from ppjn that Flybe are capped at £30k in the first 5 years.
The other point I would make is that by not being bonded you could potentially say in year 3 or 4 be somewhere paying significantly more than what excel/mytravel etc were offering and the earnings differential would be much more significant. Lets say for example you got 900 hours pa on jets then after 3-4 years a legacy carrier like Cathay could be an option where you would expect annual salary to be over £50k plus flight pay and all of the perks such as interlines etc.
Good stuff.
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Originally Posted by potkettleblack
After reading through your calcs though I am not sure if you did/didn't take into account the difference in earnings. At somewhere like flybe you correctly point out that you earn circa £26k and flying a jet its £38k. At Flybe you are bonded for 5 years so someone flying jets will earn approx £60k more over the 5 years assuming that earnings went up at the same level - in reality I think its more as jet guys go up in higher annual increments. And we know from ppjn that Flybe are capped at £30k in the first 5 years.
Ditto with the bond, that in my mind is probably the biggest penalty/offset. When the industry turns/dives/soars you're stuck where you are come rain or shine. The Flybe scheme is definately a bond, however the Excel scheme doesn't seem to mention a bond and as long as you keep up the repayments it looks like you could move to another airline, but don't take my word for it.
A pilot friend counceled against taking on bonds noting the fickle nature of the industry, but in some senses thats what you take for getting the helping bump into the industry...that said if the situation is good/bad enough it is possible to get out albeit with a hefty price to pay often.
All things that people should weigh up and make their own choice, going into things with their eyes open and head screwed on.
Thanks for the compliments
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I think Wazoo is right. There are people who are looking for different things (wasn't being facetious). When I started self sponsored the industry was just about dragging itself back up with airlines starting to make profits again. I could not have predicted today's situation.
My point is you are taking a gamble despite all your numbers (which are comendable, some people just pay out money without even thinking about it).
I'm saying that this scheme takes away a lot of the flexability I think we wannabes need to match the industry. In just 4 months, TR schemes, sponsorships and integrated courses are radically changing. Airlines' recruitment policies change constantly. To fork out the inevitable mortgage that you can not escape, but all eggs in one basket ???? I'm not so sure
My point is you are taking a gamble despite all your numbers (which are comendable, some people just pay out money without even thinking about it).
I'm saying that this scheme takes away a lot of the flexability I think we wannabes need to match the industry. In just 4 months, TR schemes, sponsorships and integrated courses are radically changing. Airlines' recruitment policies change constantly. To fork out the inevitable mortgage that you can not escape, but all eggs in one basket ???? I'm not so sure
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Originally Posted by JediDude
. I still think I'm going to go with it, my ambitions don't really go beyond that of a regional carrier and I have a particular soft-spot for the Dash 8.
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Not sure of your figure for OAT/Excel of £100k. Haven't studied the figures in depth but my understanding is you have to take out a £60k loan at the start of the course, then Excel pay YOU 18k a year tax free to repay your loan, plus £18k salary. The fact that it's tax free makes it worth more (~23% at the basic tax rate), so effectively like earning 18k + £22k which is 40k. So you really only pay £60k plus interest plus £10k living expenses. = 70k plus interest. There's also nothing stopping you paying off your loan earlier if you want, although probably a struggle on 18k a year salary!
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Does anybody have a rough idea how long the application pack takes to arrive? and did you get confirmation after you sent the email? I sent the email last Sunday and haven't heard anything yet, the cutoff date is fast approaching and I'm getting quite worried.
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Not sure of your figure for OAT/Excel of £100k. Haven't studied the figures in depth but my understanding is you have to take out a £60k loan at the start of the course, then Excel pay YOU 18k a year tax free to repay your loan, plus £18k salary. The fact that it's tax free makes it worth more (~23% at the basic tax rate), so effectively like earning 18k + £22k which is 40k. So you really only pay £60k plus interest plus £10k living expenses. = 70k plus interest. There's also nothing stopping you paying off your loan earlier if you want, although probably a struggle on 18k a year salary!
In addition to the security of ‘conditional employment’, successful OAT/Excel candidates will benefit from a special Cadet First Officer salary programme. In addition to a salary of more than £18,000 per annum in year 1, Excel will also pay those selected for the scheme an approximately equal, tax-free sum in reimbursement for their training expenses. The arrangement will continue over a 5 year period, with both salary and expenses increasing annually. The effect of this arrangement is that graduates will achieve significant financial benefit compared to the more usual situation of repaying their training costs themselves out of a normal First Officer net salary. The airline also currently provides type training for selectees at company expense.
The normal thing in this situation is for the employer to pay back your bond/loan before tax, i.e. before paying you. It comes straight out of their accounts towards the bond/loan and doesn't go via the student, that way the governement doesn't take a slice and your loan gets paid off quicker than if you were to pay it off yourself. So if they are making a point of the 18k being pre-tax, then you never see that money.
On top of that I would add that a starting salary of 40k for a low-houred FO is significantly above normal. For example, from word of mouth GB Airways have one of the highest salaries in the industry and they pay a low-houred FO 36K as opposed to 41K for an experienced FO. And thats pretty much the best pay a FO can expect to get..most airlines are lower.
Finally, the second bit of text in bold indicates that their method is different from the student getting paid a salary and then paying the loan back from that. Which would indicate that they pay the 18k before it gets to the student, i.e. pre-tax.
All in all the text doesn't seem very clear and also seems to contradict itself. However logic and reason tells me that they pay the 18k pre-tax and you don't see any of it which is where I arrive at the figure of 100K above.
Then again, I could well be wrong, so I recommend getting a definitive answer from the horses mouth so to say, and ask on the OAT forums
Apologies for hijaking the Flybe thread with Excel discussions but it seemed pertinant to answer the question.
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So, how many of you have taken the plunge with the FlyBE/Cabair scheme then? Anybody thats been through the process before that can give us all a heads up on what to expect?
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And the selection costs are too high. Having passed PILAPT tests at other 2 selections I don't really want to spend another 200 quid to play with that joystick again !
My reasons are not only financial anyway. I am enjoying flying at GA level and I am not so concerned about jumping on a turbopropo or a jet yet. I like the idea of enjoying different stages of the flying experience step by step.
If you wanna jump straight to FL240, I think this is a very good opportunity, although, make no mistake, it doesn't come cheap at all.
I am (unfortunately) approaching my late twenties and I don't think I could live on a reduced FO salary minus flybe loan repayment minus 40k bank repayment
good luck !
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yeah I'm with raviolis on this one. Being tied to Flybe for 5 years on a reduced salary as well as paying for another selection procedure, which in my humble opinion isn't as appealing as CTC or the Excel/OAT scheme, really doesn't appeal. Also the prospect of living between Milton Keynes and Bedford at Cranfield Uni for a year doesn't really excite me!
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Hi guys
am new to this but i hve just applied for the sponsorship with flybe. i had applied to CTC sponsorship course but was rejected because i failed the maths test by 3 marks (
). You were saying about the cost of the training being £40,000, well the way i see it is that either way you are getting to fly which has always been a dream for me.
am new to this but i hve just applied for the sponsorship with flybe. i had applied to CTC sponsorship course but was rejected because i failed the maths test by 3 marks (
). You were saying about the cost of the training being £40,000, well the way i see it is that either way you are getting to fly which has always been a dream for me.