To instruct or not to instruct?
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To instruct or not to instruct?
Dear fellow pilots,
I'm currently in Canada where I'm doing a CPL/ME-IFR course. I should have these licenses by December.
I have a problem to work out and I need help on my decision. The question is the following: I have Belgian nationality and Europe is where I want to work as a pilot in the future. I am trying to decide if, after I have my Canadian licenses, I should immediately go back to Europe and convert to a JAA frozen ATPL and try to find a job with low hours, or if it would be better to first do an instructor rating here in Canada, instruct here for another year or two and come back to Europe with 1000 or 1500 hours and then try to find a job, after doing the conversion (perhaps I can even do the conversion by distance learning while I'm instructing here...).
This is a difficult decision to make, as I have heard many different opinions. Here in Canada, companies are still quite old fashioned in the sense that, generally, the more hours you have, the better your chances of getting first officer in a bus. In Europe however, I hear that companies prefer you not to have more than 500 hours because otherwise you might have developed bad habits...
In short, the question is: are European airlines fond of instructors or is one better to look for a job in Air Taxi or Charter on a dual piston instead?
Is there anyone who would care to respond to my predicament?
Thank you all in advance,
Bart
I'm currently in Canada where I'm doing a CPL/ME-IFR course. I should have these licenses by December.
I have a problem to work out and I need help on my decision. The question is the following: I have Belgian nationality and Europe is where I want to work as a pilot in the future. I am trying to decide if, after I have my Canadian licenses, I should immediately go back to Europe and convert to a JAA frozen ATPL and try to find a job with low hours, or if it would be better to first do an instructor rating here in Canada, instruct here for another year or two and come back to Europe with 1000 or 1500 hours and then try to find a job, after doing the conversion (perhaps I can even do the conversion by distance learning while I'm instructing here...).
This is a difficult decision to make, as I have heard many different opinions. Here in Canada, companies are still quite old fashioned in the sense that, generally, the more hours you have, the better your chances of getting first officer in a bus. In Europe however, I hear that companies prefer you not to have more than 500 hours because otherwise you might have developed bad habits...
In short, the question is: are European airlines fond of instructors or is one better to look for a job in Air Taxi or Charter on a dual piston instead?
Is there anyone who would care to respond to my predicament?
Thank you all in advance,
Bart
Last edited by Bart_Man; 9th Aug 2006 at 18:53.
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Here in the UK you can't fly single pilot IR until you have 700hrs TT, which makes Air Taxi work difficult on limited hrs. It also makes little sense in issuing people with IRs in the first instance.
It's all about networking; if you or your school have the right contacts, it makes little difference.
It's all about networking; if you or your school have the right contacts, it makes little difference.
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Get that AFI/QFI/CFi/CFii/MEI and get out there and instruct - you will really learn so much more than simply sending out CVs to airlines that want experienced folks with 500 hrs on type.
The when you get that interview they will ask how you've kept current!
Instructing also helps you build friendships and develop industry contacts.
Best!
The when you get that interview they will ask how you've kept current!
Instructing also helps you build friendships and develop industry contacts.
Best!
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Bart
Airlines in Europe will only hire 200-hour students if they come from a recognised background, eg Oxford/Cabair/CTC. Otherwise they require anywhere between 500-2500 hours and possibly type rating depending on the airline.
If I were you, I'd get your instructor rating and start building hours. Then start studying for your JAR exams with a good distance learning school. Whilst instructing, you will make contacts and you might come across opportunities such as charter work to get some 'better' hours in your logbook.
When job-hunting, you will always be in a position of strength if you are already employed.
I know people who have done their JAR conversion straight after doing an ICAO CPL/IR... it is expensive and time-consuming (6-12 months) and, once qualified, you are still an unknown quantity to most European employers who won't know the school where you did your initial training.
Good luck
Airlines in Europe will only hire 200-hour students if they come from a recognised background, eg Oxford/Cabair/CTC. Otherwise they require anywhere between 500-2500 hours and possibly type rating depending on the airline.
If I were you, I'd get your instructor rating and start building hours. Then start studying for your JAR exams with a good distance learning school. Whilst instructing, you will make contacts and you might come across opportunities such as charter work to get some 'better' hours in your logbook.
When job-hunting, you will always be in a position of strength if you are already employed.
I know people who have done their JAR conversion straight after doing an ICAO CPL/IR... it is expensive and time-consuming (6-12 months) and, once qualified, you are still an unknown quantity to most European employers who won't know the school where you did your initial training.
Good luck
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Airlines in Europe will only hire 200-hour students if they come from a recognised background
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Hey Bartman,
I faced the same kind of scenario you are looking at right now. I have gone through everything back and forth from Canada and I will try to explain a little bit of what I found, as everyone has their own opinion about Europe and Canada.
Firstly do all your licences here including the class4 instructor rating, make sure you do it at a school that is busy and gurantees employment after completeing it. Instruct hardcore in Canada!!! I cannot emphasize that enough! You can do more hours in Canada instructing than Ryanair Pilots do in 2 years which helps you jump infront most European candidates as most are limited to time building over there!!. Experience is more valubale than wasting your time dreaming about a 737 with 250 hours! When I was in the UK flying most people I met that had a licence were more interested in sending CV's to 737 and 747 operators than actually flying to gain experience.
To be comfortable go to Europe with a minimum of 1000hrs and a comfortable 2500 would be ideal. The exams are easy, just a pain in the ass! If you can pass the Canadian ATPL's you will be fine, one of my firends did the whole conversion in 3 months.
You have the chance most people don't have and that is easy time building here in Canada.....use it! I've flown in the UK in an Air Taxi and now TurboProp....but at the end of the day I instructed in Canada and racked 700 hours in 5 months!! In a busy school I bet you could do 1500/ year easily!
I faced the same kind of scenario you are looking at right now. I have gone through everything back and forth from Canada and I will try to explain a little bit of what I found, as everyone has their own opinion about Europe and Canada.
Firstly do all your licences here including the class4 instructor rating, make sure you do it at a school that is busy and gurantees employment after completeing it. Instruct hardcore in Canada!!! I cannot emphasize that enough! You can do more hours in Canada instructing than Ryanair Pilots do in 2 years which helps you jump infront most European candidates as most are limited to time building over there!!. Experience is more valubale than wasting your time dreaming about a 737 with 250 hours! When I was in the UK flying most people I met that had a licence were more interested in sending CV's to 737 and 747 operators than actually flying to gain experience.
To be comfortable go to Europe with a minimum of 1000hrs and a comfortable 2500 would be ideal. The exams are easy, just a pain in the ass! If you can pass the Canadian ATPL's you will be fine, one of my firends did the whole conversion in 3 months.
You have the chance most people don't have and that is easy time building here in Canada.....use it! I've flown in the UK in an Air Taxi and now TurboProp....but at the end of the day I instructed in Canada and racked 700 hours in 5 months!! In a busy school I bet you could do 1500/ year easily!
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Originally Posted by Mercenary Pilot
Sorry but thats absolute nonsense. Most of the guys/gals I trained with have got jobs (modular) with less than 300 hours. Whilst most of the Cabair guys I know have had to instruct before moving to the airlines.
I have 3friends working who prove that is nonsense, all of them under 300hrs, all of them modular and all of them working for major uk airlines!
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I think that people get employed with all levels of experience. At the moment it seems quite easy to get a job if you have a few thousand hours, but its still pot luck if you're low on the hours front. At the end of the day, whens all said and done, when the final whistle blows, at the final act(can't think of any other cliches), if you're instructing it means you're flying, getting paid for it, building experience(which is never a bad thing), and you can still be looking for a job. Surly(don't cal me surly) its better to be flying and looking than not flying and looking.
I graduated just after september the 11, I completed an instrutors course, got a job instructing, and in 6 months was flying for an air taxi company. Three years and 1500hrs later, i got a job with a regional. My air taxi work took me all over the uk, and most of western europe, all single crew. if thats not good experience, then i don't know what is.
cheers, homer_j
I graduated just after september the 11, I completed an instrutors course, got a job instructing, and in 6 months was flying for an air taxi company. Three years and 1500hrs later, i got a job with a regional. My air taxi work took me all over the uk, and most of western europe, all single crew. if thats not good experience, then i don't know what is.
cheers, homer_j
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Originally Posted by no sponsor
Here in the UK you can't fly single pilot IR until you have 700hrs TT, which makes Air Taxi work difficult on limited hrs. It also makes little sense in issuing people with IRs in the first instance.
It's all about networking; if you or your school have the right contacts, it makes little difference.
It's all about networking; if you or your school have the right contacts, it makes little difference.
This information is not strictly true! Some operators have dispensation so you may fly single pilot IFR with as little as 400hrs! Strange but true.
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This forum is a little annoying. I personally want to be a B737 or A320 pilot. But I wouldn't complain if I was to fly most planes as long as I am flying for an airline. I want to be an airline pilot. I never considered becoming and instructor and I never will. Your heart has to be there. You have to be really dedicated to your students, remember they are paying a lot of money so they can sit next to you. I started my training abroad and I was unluvky to be seated next to a 22 year old as my instructor. I hate to say it, but I lost a lot of hours because he didn't have the articulation of the older guys. I was only 20 as well and I think I also had to get over a trust barrier. Things didn't help as you could always here the mrmurs yeah once I've clocked up so many hours I'm out of here! They didn't care about me - they cared about their log books!
What I'm trying to say is 'teach because you feel you can create great pilots and feel good at this thought.'
If you live in europe there are lots of oppertunities showing their heads quite frequently and if you can afford a type rating - where you know there's a job at the end - there is no shortage of oppertunites. But also look send your CV out you may find you don't have to pay. But there are lots of pilots being hired with low hours. UK pilots generally find a way in. In the professional flying schools it appears that the job of flying instructor is more of a career.
If you want to be an airline pilot NOW - then the option is clear, come here to Europe get a conversion with a good school and progress from there.
If you don't have the money, although certain schools will give you a help ie through HSBC and you have EU citizenship, then instructing may be the last option, however do it for the students, not for your log book. Thats a crime!
What I'm trying to say is 'teach because you feel you can create great pilots and feel good at this thought.'
If you live in europe there are lots of oppertunities showing their heads quite frequently and if you can afford a type rating - where you know there's a job at the end - there is no shortage of oppertunites. But also look send your CV out you may find you don't have to pay. But there are lots of pilots being hired with low hours. UK pilots generally find a way in. In the professional flying schools it appears that the job of flying instructor is more of a career.
If you want to be an airline pilot NOW - then the option is clear, come here to Europe get a conversion with a good school and progress from there.
If you don't have the money, although certain schools will give you a help ie through HSBC and you have EU citizenship, then instructing may be the last option, however do it for the students, not for your log book. Thats a crime!
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Thanks
Thanks for the responses people.
Seems like some swear by instructing and others say it's not even all that hard to find a job in an airline with low time either. Anyway, I'd love to instruct and I think that's what I'm going to do for the first couple of years. I don't think I'd really want to pay for my own type rating at this point anyway, or spend a year unemployed forwarding CV's to companies who will pay for the type rating.
Special thanks to YYZ_Instructor.
Thanks for the advice,
Bart
Seems like some swear by instructing and others say it's not even all that hard to find a job in an airline with low time either. Anyway, I'd love to instruct and I think that's what I'm going to do for the first couple of years. I don't think I'd really want to pay for my own type rating at this point anyway, or spend a year unemployed forwarding CV's to companies who will pay for the type rating.
Special thanks to YYZ_Instructor.
Thanks for the advice,
Bart
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I have 3 friends working who prove that is nonsense, all of them under 300hrs, all of them modular and all of them working for major uk airlines!
I too used to instruct. Didn't really help me get a job, but did wonders for material to talk about in the interview (teamwork/leadership and descision making examples galore
). Met some very nice people too....Don't sweat it about buliding up hours too quickly though. Airlines and TRI/TRE's dont care if you have 250 or 600 at single piston level. You are simply bunched together as 'Low Hours'.
I also did 80 hours in a month once and its not fun when you have 6 lessons in a day with no time for lunch and no time to properly prepare students for their next lesson. You land and the next one is waiting. Knackering!
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How much of a hurry are you in to get an airline job? That should be what determines whether to instruct first or not.
If you're not in a hurry, definitely stay in Canada and build those hours. Like someone said earlier in this thread, you need 700 hours for any air taxi job in the UK. So even though you "might" get an airline job straight after your conversion, you'll have a backup plan that will keep you flying while waiting for the next step up. Plus, I have no doubt you'll meet plenty of airline pilots doing the air taxi work, which will build your network beautifully.
If you are in a hurry (I was, because of age), you could just start the conversion ASAP and try get your big break straight of school. It might work and it'll probably save a year or two. But if you don't get the break, are you prepared to get a JAA instructor rating (not cheap!) to keep flying and reach the 700 hours needed for air taxi? You'll end up spending A LOT more money than you'd built your hours instructing in Canada.
Don't think that the instructing as such will increase your chance to get an airline job (might even be the opposite for some airlines). But the hours you'll build doing it will open the door to a flying job which will provide some sort of salary and allow you to make the crucial contacts.
Good luck!
P
If you're not in a hurry, definitely stay in Canada and build those hours. Like someone said earlier in this thread, you need 700 hours for any air taxi job in the UK. So even though you "might" get an airline job straight after your conversion, you'll have a backup plan that will keep you flying while waiting for the next step up. Plus, I have no doubt you'll meet plenty of airline pilots doing the air taxi work, which will build your network beautifully.
If you are in a hurry (I was, because of age), you could just start the conversion ASAP and try get your big break straight of school. It might work and it'll probably save a year or two. But if you don't get the break, are you prepared to get a JAA instructor rating (not cheap!) to keep flying and reach the 700 hours needed for air taxi? You'll end up spending A LOT more money than you'd built your hours instructing in Canada.
Don't think that the instructing as such will increase your chance to get an airline job (might even be the opposite for some airlines). But the hours you'll build doing it will open the door to a flying job which will provide some sort of salary and allow you to make the crucial contacts.
Good luck!
P
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Hurry
Hi pilots,
I'm 25 now. I don't really know how much of a hurry I should be in to get an airline job. Also, I doubt if, in case I would go and apply for a job in Europe with 300 hours or less, airline operators would consider my skills equal, considering that 200 of those low hours would have been built in Northern America. Some people could be prejudiced, although that training in Canada is of the same quality as in the EU. Isn't it so that airlines often require experience or at least training on JAR aircraft?
Some swear by building hours by instructing and others say that all single engine is considered the same... Also, people tell me that, while instructing, I would be able to do some networking and make some contacts, but I doubt if contacts that I make in Canada would help me very much when in the end I want to fly for an airline in Europe.
Ideally, I'd like to find a job in an airline immediately after having done the conversion to JAA. The thing I'm afraid of is simply not finding a job. Trying to find a job with 250 hours seems very risky. I don't know if I, after having spent that kind of money, want to go sit around doing nothing for a couple of months and put all my hopes on finding a break. I'm leaning towards instructing and doing the JAA conversion in the meanwhile...
Also, paying for a type rating immediately after school without being guaranteed a job makes it even more risky.
Cragenmore, how long did you instruct for before you decided to move on to a type rating? Were you guaranteed a job while you were doing the type rating or did you pay for it and found a job afterwards? Is it fairly easy to find a job as an instructor in Europe? That would be another option for me, as a job instructing in Europe could give me a better opportunity for networking than in Canada. On the other hand, if I'd instruct, I'd like to do it for two years at least so that I could put my energy in my students rather than in my logbook and in social climbing.
Does anyone here know how converted licenses are looked upon in the EU? Will it be more difficult for me to find a job considering that I did training in Canada and then converted?
Thanks a lot for all the answers everyone. It helps.
Bart
I'm 25 now. I don't really know how much of a hurry I should be in to get an airline job. Also, I doubt if, in case I would go and apply for a job in Europe with 300 hours or less, airline operators would consider my skills equal, considering that 200 of those low hours would have been built in Northern America. Some people could be prejudiced, although that training in Canada is of the same quality as in the EU. Isn't it so that airlines often require experience or at least training on JAR aircraft?
Some swear by building hours by instructing and others say that all single engine is considered the same... Also, people tell me that, while instructing, I would be able to do some networking and make some contacts, but I doubt if contacts that I make in Canada would help me very much when in the end I want to fly for an airline in Europe.
Ideally, I'd like to find a job in an airline immediately after having done the conversion to JAA. The thing I'm afraid of is simply not finding a job. Trying to find a job with 250 hours seems very risky. I don't know if I, after having spent that kind of money, want to go sit around doing nothing for a couple of months and put all my hopes on finding a break. I'm leaning towards instructing and doing the JAA conversion in the meanwhile...
Also, paying for a type rating immediately after school without being guaranteed a job makes it even more risky.
Cragenmore, how long did you instruct for before you decided to move on to a type rating? Were you guaranteed a job while you were doing the type rating or did you pay for it and found a job afterwards? Is it fairly easy to find a job as an instructor in Europe? That would be another option for me, as a job instructing in Europe could give me a better opportunity for networking than in Canada. On the other hand, if I'd instruct, I'd like to do it for two years at least so that I could put my energy in my students rather than in my logbook and in social climbing.
Does anyone here know how converted licenses are looked upon in the EU? Will it be more difficult for me to find a job considering that I did training in Canada and then converted?
Thanks a lot for all the answers everyone. It helps.
Bart
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Cragenmore, how long did you instruct for
Were you guaranteed a job while you were doing the type rating
Is it fairly easy to find a job as an instructor in Europe
However, if you search of the Instructor forum, it is possible to secure an instructor position before completion of the course. Right place, right time as ever in this industry.
Last edited by Craggenmore; 13th Aug 2006 at 14:14.
