Highland Airways Sponsorship Scheme open!

[elevengflyer]

Originally Posted by alpacapoo

Finally, I'd much rather a 75K bond and being paid with a guaranteed job

The only job that is GUARANTEED is the one in ops, which won't do a great deal to further your competence as a pilot, despite all the rubbish that is spouted about learning the company methods.

Silverknapper.. yes I do have a bee in my bonnet about this one and I refer you to my previous point it is economically unnecessary to bond people to this extent and this is the only industry in the private sector that do it! take on some risk management strategy, look at the global picture and offer people t&c's that make them want to stay! Even the people on this forum ask the question of 'what is life like after the period in Highland', they DONT want to view it as a long term thing they just want to fly 320's or 737's. Please give me a good reason why sponsorship is better than taking on an experienced or good OAT graduate or ex-military pilot? Wher's the economic sense?

[Tui Hat Wearing Son]

elevengflyer, indeed you are right about jobs being guaranteed.

In all sincerity 11g you just don't seem to get it, some don't. Yes you've spent all your money and your wife is shouting at you and you can't get a job, and the logic of economics that you used to justify spending all your money to yourself and your wife is not working because of schemes like this and we all feel very sorry for you. If you go to Coventry and see the scheme working, as it has done for years, you'll realise that there is more to these cadetships (and pilot recruitment in general) than an economic equation......as far as I’m concerned I’m finished with 11g.

Jakey-wakey - Now the proper-stuff.

Jake. The selection last time was in two stages.

Stage one - Group interview, go round the table tell everyone about yourself kind of thing. Then you'll sit the McQuaig Psychological and Aptitude tests.

Stage two - If you pass stage one you'll be invited back for an interview with the MD and HR manager (or similar). The interview will be a general answers and questions session, trying to probe your knowledge of aviation etc etc.

Pm for anymore jake

[scruggs]

On a separate note. With the new age discrimination laws coming into play, does this mean Air Atlantique and Highland Airways will no longer be able to impose such age restrictions?

[go_solo]

Age Discrimination

Yes Easypilot, technically the legislation that comes into force on the 1st October will prohibit employers from directly or indirectly discriminating against candidates because of their age so we may see a removal or amendment of age limits.

However unlike other discrimination legislation, the Employment Equality (Age) Regulation 2006 will allow an employer to directly discriminate against someone due to their age, if they can objectively justify that treatment. i.e. give a reason why the discrimination is required - for example, in sex discrimination you may find a bra fitter would require to be female....if that was your back up plan on failing your IR then sorry lads!

In age discrimination, the employer could argue that they are treating someone less favourably because of the demands of training will require a young and agile mind (rubbish I know!!), however that’s how the RAF have previously justified an upper age of 23.5yrs (Or it was last time I looked). Case law will ultimately define how strictly tribunals will treat this, but it should keep me in business until I get my ATPL!

The other thing to take into account is that even with legislation in place, discrimination takes place and is very hard to prove. Try to prove that the employer picks person A over B because A was a bloke and not because of one of the many other legitimate competencies or skills’ required.

Oh, and as an HR person who's had to fish through hundreds of CV's....you get 10 to 15 seconds to impress and if you aint got the minimum requirements then bye bye.....its just another round of recruitment to them and they will have many more CV's than time and a hundred other things to do!

However that said, good luck to all!

[PPL152]

I don't have a driving licence, and neither a Class One Medical, so I decided not to apply, and just wait for their next scheme.

[scroggs]

In age discrimination, the employer could argue that they are treating someone less favourably because of the demands of training will require a young and agile mind (rubbish I know!!), however that’s how the RAF have previously justified an upper age of 23.5yrs (Or it was last time I looked). Case law will ultimately define how strictly tribunals will treat this, but it should keep me in business until I get my ATPL!

Unfortunately, it's not rubbish. There are several very good and highly credible studies that show how the mind becomes less agile over time, and how age diminishes the ability to acquire and assimilate new skills. It doesn't matter how many anecdotes you accumulate of mates and acquaintances that claim to be as sharp at 90 as they were at 20, science (and thus the legal people) says otherwise. Whether the demands of non-military flying training are sufficient to justify the concerns over age is another, and eminently legally arguable, matter. In my opinion (which is perhaps pretty worthless in this context), they are not - until you get to the commercial tyoe-rating stage, when the demands and pressures ramp up considerably. Is that sufficient grounds to discriminate? It is until a test case is held!

The other thing to take into account is that even with legislation in place, discrimination takes place and is very hard to prove. Try to prove that the employer picks person A over B because A was a bloke and not because of one of the many other legitimate competencies or skills’ required.

Absolutely. It can be proven over time - no pilot employees accepted over the age of 30 over a 5-year period, say - but is very difficult to demonstrate in an individual case.

Scroggs

[JimNich]

It would be strange, wouldn't it, if a study that set out to prove that an older mind is less agile and less capable of aquiring and assimilating new skills found otherwise. As an instuctor in four separate disciplines I agree there is an element of truth in it of course. However, "less agile" and "less capable" is a crass over simplification to encompass the highly complex process of the maturing brain. All it really does is unnecessarily prejudice recruiters against older candidates

If these "studies" had any "credibility" at all they would go on to mention the effect of life experience etcetera and the more considered (if slower) processes that result.

I'm sorry, I just won't lie down and be told to accept I have less to offer because I'm older. Being old sucks enough without having some expert telling you you're stoopid too.

[wbryce]

If one has was unsuccessful at Air Atlantiques scheme, can one apply for this one?

[silverknapper]

11g
Your bitterness is getting boring. The scheme has operated successfully for years. Full stop. No amount of reasons will convince you otherwise - I guess you just don't want to be convinced.
For those applying good luck - it is an awesome opportunity. Don't let like this guy put you off.

SK

[elevengflyer]

Originally Posted by silverknapper

11g
Your bitterness is getting boring. The scheme has operated successfully for years. Full stop. No amount of reasons will convince you otherwise - I guess you just don't want to be convinced.
For those applying good luck - it is an awesome opportunity. Don't let like this guy put you off.

SK

SK for the record it has nothing to do with bitterness. I have never applied to work at Highland and never will (not beceause I have anything against them, it's just not for me). I've paid my money and made my own choices. My point was to do with the economics involved for an organisation such as this to do a cadet scheme. The secondary point is that there is a lot of talent around that goes unused and becomes stale (perhaps even bitter!)
It's nothing to do with putting anybody off - We are all pilots and we would all do whatever we can fund our dream and hopefully get the most of the investment we put in - the airlines know this and that is why they dare to ask us to stump up money to get a job.
If you think I'm trying to discourage anybody from applying you have mis-interpreted my message. Like anything in this business though, people need to make a carefull choice based on what's right for them.

[Groundloop]

Originally Posted by elevengflyer

If you think I'm trying to discourage anybody from applying you have mis-interpreted my message.

"The only job that is GUARANTEED is the one in ops, which won't do a great deal to further your competence as a pilot, despite all the rubbish that is spouted about learning the company methods."

"As for excellent T's and C's If you think a £75K bond is a good contract term then I can only suggest you have been well and truly 'moulded'."

"£75K bond - what a bargain!
I wonder why this airline feels the need to even run a cadet scheme, which according to their website 'produces a frozen ATPL within aproximately two years'.
Why put people through a two year scheme when there are plenty of FATPL holders from 'quality' flying schools (I am one too!) without jobs and virtually willing to sell their sould for a flying job?"

Well, pardon me for also misinterpreting your message!

[elevengflyer]

Groundloop. I am not trying to discourage anyone from applying to HIGHLAND.
I do believe the only guaranteed job is the one in ops, HOWEVER - there are ALMOST NO guaranteed jobs in the aviation industry, so if you fit the bill apply!
I do NOT believe £75K bond is a good contract term, in fact compared with other industries it is awful, HOWEVER - if you finance your own study and fATPL you will also be out of pocket for tens of thousands of pounds, so once again if the scheme is for you apply!
I do not see that a cadet scheme is necessary for this partcular OPERATOR, HOWEVER I do comend them for at least trying to do something different, albeit my argument was one of economics, so if you feel a cadet scheme with Highland is for you apply!
SO wherever you go in aviation the first few years you will be caught between a rock and a hard place.
I hope this clarifies!

[wordyuk]

Having just passed the final interview for the Air Atlantique scholarship I will be starting as a cadet in Coventry on the 25th of September. I presume the Highland selection will be almost identical to the one iv just been through so if anybody would like to know a little bit more of what is involved and more importantly, what type of people they are looking for then don't hesitate to contact me.

I still dont see where 11g is coming from. Yes the bond is substantial however id rather be bonded to a company who is paying me to fly than have a huge debt around my neck and looking for my first job within the airlines.

True, after gaining my fATPL im not GAURENTEED the job however having spoke in depth to the current pilots it is VERY rare that a cadet is not given a job with Atlantic Air Reconnaissance upon gaining the fATPL. The youngest Captain with Air Atlantique is 23, I presume Highland will have Captains around that same age also.

If I hadn't have been offored the sponsorship, I would almost certainly have self funded my training at FTE (infact i still have my aptitude testing booked with FTE for the 21st August). I know that I am very grateful to have been offored the chance with Atlantique. I know ile enjoy not having to pay back a £60K+loan and being one of many low hours fATPL pilots looking for my first job.I will enjoy however having my license and type ratings paid for and know I have a job flying aircraft for as long as I want it!

[GusHoneybun]

there truly is some gash being spouted on here.

it's highland's train set and quite frankly they can recruit who they like. if that means they only want to employ polynesian pygmy's named rupert then good for them, i mean, who is going to stop them. i very much doubt that anonymous spoutings on an internet forum is going to change that.

the reason they want cadets is simply because they have a hard time holding onto pilots. once the bond expires, they are quick as the proverbial rat off to fly shiny jets. this leaves a vacent left hand seat that a) someone has to be trained to fill (expense) and b) they need a new FO who needs to be recruited, type rated and trained (even more expense). this all takes time and money. so recruiting a cadet who won't run off after 3 years works out cheaper in the long run. also saves mucho time and effort for the training staff. you only need to look at the present flight crew and find that those who have been with the company for longer than 2 years are all, yup you guessed it, atlantique fuglies sent up to inverness. a good case for a cadet scheme if ever there was one.

and so what if the bond is 75 grand. as SK said, just look at the amount of training your bond is giving you, and it is all paid for. and with people willing to pay 75 grand or so to oxford (once you take into account food, accomodation, etc, etc) where is the comparison. the cadet will eventually leave highland the right side of thirty, somewhere knocking of 5000 hours with mulitple types on their licence. they will have no debts and have the luxury of earning around 40 grand a year once they become a skipper. suddenly the frozen tundra looks a lot more appealing methinks.

[elevengflyer]

Originally Posted by GusHoneybun

there truly is some gash being spouted on here.

1-it's highland's train set and quite frankly they can recruit who they like.

2-the reason they want cadets is simply because they have a hard time holding onto pilots.

3-and so what if the bond is 75 grand.

1- too true! doesn't make it good business sense though does it?

2- Why is it they have trouble holding on to pilot's if they are so good to work for?

3- you obviously don't think 75K is a big deal - try getting a doctor, lawyer or dentist to stump up a bond like this - I can tell you their response, it ends in 'off'.

[wordyuk]

75K is a big deal, course it is. However, id rather be WORKING for an airline (more then likely as a pilot) and the BOND getting smaller and smaller every month, whilst still being paid to fly than having to repay a DEBT that the bank has loaned me to do an integrated course. The wages (after the 1st 2 years) Highland and Atlantique offer are very respectable.

I just dont understand 11g's logic. I was going to go the integrated route myself and take out the huge bank loan which would not have been paid off for many years (and more importantly, still having to look for my first job as a low hours pilot upon completion).But now I will have the training paid for and, all being well, thousands of hours, P1 and multi crew, and numerous type ratings under my belt when the contract is up!

[GusHoneybun]

It does make good business sense as it is cheaper to employ and train one fugly for seven years rather than recruiting and training the 3 fo's and captains needed over the same period.
Staff retention, simply put, comes down to money. Highland can't compete with Easyjet salaries and as such Pilots leave for better terms and conditions. It has nothing to do with how good or bad the company is. And this is true for Eastern, Logie, AerArran, AirSouthwest or any TP operator. All have the same problem with staff retention. These are companies you work for at the start or end of your career.
Please understand, it is a bond, not a loan. Cost to the cadet is zero pounds and zero pence. I still fail to see why you are so anti this scheme. You are expected to stump up nothing, nada, zip, naff all, sweet fanny adams if you please. And if you think the timescale of seven years is excessive.

Consider Bloke A)
Fresh PPL, 50 hours and a class 1 medical. Date : 01 Sept 2006
Naffs off the the states to hour build. Takes a few months and costs £9000 by the time you take into account food, accomodation and flights. Finished 01 Jan 2007
Starts ATPL Groundschool which takes the best part of a year (say 10 months) and costs £3000. Finished assuming no retakes 01 Nov 2007
Enrolls on a CPL course, probably waiting a month for a training slot, takes about a month to complete if the weather is good. Costs about £5500 in the UK. Finished 01 Feb 2008
A quick ME course and straight into the IR. Not much change out of £15000 and takes two - three months to complete. Finished 01 May 2008. CAA fees to this point is around about £2000.
Of course our cadet the spends two - three months firing out CV's to all airlines like, say for sake of example, Highland before he realises that he needs to start building up some experience first. Enrols on an FI course on 01 August 2008.
Completes the FI course in a couple of months at the cost of £6000 and gets his rating issued 01 October 2008. And that doesn't include basic living expenses, which probably costs around £150 a week or so, lets call it about £14000 for the two years whilst paying for his own training. So total cost to train yourself up to this level is well over £50000
Works his proverbial arse off for a year and racks up 1000 hours and gets an interview at Highland on 01 November 2009. Our chap impresses the Chief Pilot and gets offered a job, type rating to start on the 01 Jan 2010. Takes a month to complete and once he passes the LST, he is bonded for three years until 01 March 2013. At a cost of say, £12000 on the Jetstream.
Our chap does remarkable well and after a year is offered the ATR (should have them by then) and the f406. Bond of £20000 for the both and as the company are so nice, it's only for two years.
So, his bond is up and he is offski to easyjet 6 years and 6 months after starting his hour building, at a personal cost probably well over £50000 and having being worked off £32000 of his bond.

Or Bloke B)
Joins Highland as a cadet on 01 Sept 2006. Bonded for £75000. Gets all his training paid for. Earns money (however little to begin with) whilst hour building and commercial training. Gets the ATR, J31 and F406 rating. Also given the FI rating as well.
After seven years his bond expires and he is offski to easyjet on the 01 Sept 2013 a staggering 6 months after bloke A. Cost to said cadet, zero!
And if this cadet had the £50000 prior to joining Highland to pay for their own training and puts this in a highish interest account for seven years will earn over 20000 in interest alone.

Now, can someone please point out why this is such an evil scheme cos I really must be missing the point

[silverknapper]

Gus

A well put thread, but I wouldn't waste my time with this guy. Probably been knocked back despite what he says so has it in for HA.
11g

Why is it they have trouble holding on to pilot's if they are so good to work for?

You have no idea what you're talking about. You could pay a J31 skipper the same as a A319 one. Other than the odd exception who loves the Highland lifestyle they would still move to the bigger shinier machine. In this career it isn't just down to money. Everyone strives to fly the newest, shiniest metal.

doctor, lawyer or dentist to stump up a bond like this

Again your dire lack of knowledge or research shines through!!!!! No one stumps up anything. Not a penny.
As you keep harping on about keeping staff you may find it useful to note that the boss is ex Cathay and Virgin 747. He loves it up here so much he came to us.

[MercenaryAli]

MD

And if the MD is still the same chap, Captain Roy Suckling - he is not only a very nice person BUT also a very good pilot, instructor and examiner. One of those rare airlines where somebody in management actually knows what a pilot needs to know and do

[Luke SkyToddler]

Mercenary :
You are confusing your companies there mate, Roy Suckling has nothing to do with Highland. Alan Mossman is the boss at Highland. Roy is the MD of Scotairways which is an entirely different company (operates Dornier 328s out of DND, EDI and SOU).