New Sponsorship (ish) scheme OAT
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Read the small print
Can I just get this clear in my ‘ead….
£64000 – For the course and fees
£6000 – Say costs incurred for your good self incl food, other accom, living expenses
£15000 – Loss of earnings at a low just out of Uni level for the time with OATS
£22500 – Interest on the above over a 5 year period
£39000 – Reduced salary loss of earnings as a Cadet F/O with TCA for three years.
Grand total to you the student - £146500
Of course I’ve rounded it up a little bit, but it’s a ball park figure to play with. As a FO with TCA with a full bells and whistles licence and some experience under your belt, you would have a basic of £33k ish. As a Cadet, last time I checked, £20535 pa.
Can’t help but take sharp intake of breath.
Going modular, getting a couple of years TP experience isn’t going to cost over 1/8 of a million quid ?
Good luck to those that want to embark on this route……
£64000 – For the course and fees
£6000 – Say costs incurred for your good self incl food, other accom, living expenses
£15000 – Loss of earnings at a low just out of Uni level for the time with OATS
£22500 – Interest on the above over a 5 year period
£39000 – Reduced salary loss of earnings as a Cadet F/O with TCA for three years.
Grand total to you the student - £146500
Of course I’ve rounded it up a little bit, but it’s a ball park figure to play with. As a FO with TCA with a full bells and whistles licence and some experience under your belt, you would have a basic of £33k ish. As a Cadet, last time I checked, £20535 pa.
Can’t help but take sharp intake of breath.
Going modular, getting a couple of years TP experience isn’t going to cost over 1/8 of a million quid ?
Good luck to those that want to embark on this route……
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Rose tinted
Flying Tom,,it always always costs more than you think.
I went the modular route expecting to cough up about 22k and its cost me about 32k (though that did include a rating) AND that doesn't include loss of earnings etc etc.
I went the modular route expecting to cough up about 22k and its cost me about 32k (though that did include a rating) AND that doesn't include loss of earnings etc etc.
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im 17 going on 18 and about 9months away from applying, iv alreay got my PPL so loss of earning snt sumin worrying about as im not really earning much anyway only bout £100 a week with my side job! but yeh i knw its flying my ppl cost a grand and half more than i thought and im still to take my skills test! but im going dwn the integrated route and i can handel the financing as the loan is interest free so i guess im lucky!
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Jenson,
That's exactly my point... thought I was the only one thinking this is insane. Even if you forgot about the loss of earnings, that's still a hell of a lot of interest!! I'd much rather take the risk and go modular... sure, it'll take longer, but then I can start on a decent salary! Why pay £60k+++ for something, then be on a reduced salary, when you could pay £30k and be on a proper salary?!?! Am I missing something here? (Apart from the old "integrated is better than modular" argument.)
That's exactly my point... thought I was the only one thinking this is insane. Even if you forgot about the loss of earnings, that's still a hell of a lot of interest!! I'd much rather take the risk and go modular... sure, it'll take longer, but then I can start on a decent salary! Why pay £60k+++ for something, then be on a reduced salary, when you could pay £30k and be on a proper salary?!?! Am I missing something here? (Apart from the old "integrated is better than modular" argument.)
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Originally Posted by Jenson Button
Can I just get this clear in my ‘ead….
£64000 – For the course and fees
£6000 – Say costs incurred for your good self incl food, other accom, living expenses
£15000 – Loss of earnings at a low just out of Uni level for the time with OATS
£22500 – Interest on the above over a 5 year period
£39000 – Reduced salary loss of earnings as a Cadet F/O with TCA for three years.
Grand total to you the student - £146500
Of course I’ve rounded it up a little bit, but it’s a ball park figure to play with. As a FO with TCA with a full bells and whistles licence and some experience under your belt, you would have a basic of £33k ish. As a Cadet, last time I checked, £20535 pa.
Can’t help but take sharp intake of breath.
Going modular, getting a couple of years TP experience isn’t going to cost over 1/8 of a million quid ?
Good luck to those that want to embark on this route……
£64000 – For the course and fees
£6000 – Say costs incurred for your good self incl food, other accom, living expenses
£15000 – Loss of earnings at a low just out of Uni level for the time with OATS
£22500 – Interest on the above over a 5 year period
£39000 – Reduced salary loss of earnings as a Cadet F/O with TCA for three years.
Grand total to you the student - £146500
Of course I’ve rounded it up a little bit, but it’s a ball park figure to play with. As a FO with TCA with a full bells and whistles licence and some experience under your belt, you would have a basic of £33k ish. As a Cadet, last time I checked, £20535 pa.
Can’t help but take sharp intake of breath.
Going modular, getting a couple of years TP experience isn’t going to cost over 1/8 of a million quid ?
Good luck to those that want to embark on this route……
Please correct me if my interpretation of the financing of the scheme is wrong, however, I think your estimations of the cost to the student participating is wrong.
WD
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Your not going insane femalewannabie.
It is huge amounts of money to be playing with. But this argument repeats itself every 3 months or so. For some its good value for money and its very strange that anyone could get a job unless they have done an intergrated course. And for others its very strange that anyone would get taken in by this obvious marketing ploy. Although it must be a bit of bitch when your not one of the select few who go to BA or BMI and in your first job your sitting next to a pilot who has payed under half what you have for the same blue book.
Only point I might dispute is that modular takes longer than integrated.
PPL - 3 weeks
Phase one - 8 weeks study
exams 2 weeks course 1 exams
hour build 50 hours- 2 weeks
Phase 2 - 8 weeks study.
exams 2 weeks course 1 weeks exams.
hour build + MEP. 2 weeks.
Cpl - 2 weeks
IR - 8 weeks
MCC - 2 weeks.
41 weeks
5 weeks for the nervous break downs and generally waiting and your all done in under a year. And for 35k less.
It is huge amounts of money to be playing with. But this argument repeats itself every 3 months or so. For some its good value for money and its very strange that anyone could get a job unless they have done an intergrated course. And for others its very strange that anyone would get taken in by this obvious marketing ploy. Although it must be a bit of bitch when your not one of the select few who go to BA or BMI and in your first job your sitting next to a pilot who has payed under half what you have for the same blue book.
Only point I might dispute is that modular takes longer than integrated.
PPL - 3 weeks
Phase one - 8 weeks study
exams 2 weeks course 1 exams
hour build 50 hours- 2 weeks
Phase 2 - 8 weeks study.
exams 2 weeks course 1 weeks exams.
hour build + MEP. 2 weeks.
Cpl - 2 weeks
IR - 8 weeks
MCC - 2 weeks.
41 weeks
5 weeks for the nervous break downs and generally waiting and your all done in under a year. And for 35k less.
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Grand total to you the student - £146500
I would say that £100k would be a far more appropriate figure to factor for this - however that is significantly more than advertised by training providers.
What I don't like about these schemes is the con that they place you on a "cadet" salary, when in many cases the costs of training are NOT secured - I don't know if they are in this case but I would be surprised as this is not a CTC scheme with no risk to you if adequately selected.
However you must consider that if you go for the £30k modular route, that your continuity will not be the same if you have to work in another job at the same time - however hard you work - and/or that additional waiting for a job does cost you real lost earnings, as training departments DO discriminate towards integrated holders of CPL/IR.
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Pub estimate
Apologies to the accountants amongst us. Agreed, I have mixed current actual costs with future APR costs and some of my figures have been rounded out.
BUT, its back of a fag packet calculations (which you need to do at the sharp pointy front end every day) and they are not that far wide of the mark. At best,I reckon you'll be spending 120k and at worst £145k give or take a bit for interest rates, rise of inflation, earnings etc. Don't even get me started on the T&Cs that the "glad I've just got a flying job at the end of my Rolls Royce Integrated Course" will be getting. Pension, Health care, Loss of Licence etc.
The thread could degenerate into the pro's and con's of integrated versus modular. BA have taken on a few modular guys and gals over the last few years, so its not entirely sewn up.
ITS a Pub guesstimate, but its still pretty incredible abouts of money.
Again, best wishes to those wanting this direction.
Jenson
Like the Murphys, I'm not bitter
BUT, its back of a fag packet calculations (which you need to do at the sharp pointy front end every day) and they are not that far wide of the mark. At best,I reckon you'll be spending 120k and at worst £145k give or take a bit for interest rates, rise of inflation, earnings etc. Don't even get me started on the T&Cs that the "glad I've just got a flying job at the end of my Rolls Royce Integrated Course" will be getting. Pension, Health care, Loss of Licence etc.
The thread could degenerate into the pro's and con's of integrated versus modular. BA have taken on a few modular guys and gals over the last few years, so its not entirely sewn up.
ITS a Pub guesstimate, but its still pretty incredible abouts of money.
Again, best wishes to those wanting this direction.
Jenson
Like the Murphys, I'm not bitter
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Just to throw my two pennies worth in,
I don't think JB's guestimate is that far out. Oxford themselves say 64,000 plus 13,000.
Add interest, loss of earnings (a fair factor when used as a comparison with modular) and living expenses takes it to well over 100k, more realistically closer to 140k.
Then, there is the rather vague way in which the loan is repaid. Quite why you have to wait untill stage 2 before it is fully explained is a mystery. Obvioulsy not somthing which either party want to advertise!
'successful OAT/TCA candidates will benefit from a special Cadet First Officer salary programme. Over the first 7 years of employment, TCA will repay the graduate's actual OAT training and CAA costs by deduction from their gross salary.'
You start on a cadet salary, of, I believe, 20k (makes sense too as 65k / 7 years = about 10k per year and SO's start on 30k)
A bit of quick maths (not exact):
Salary of 20k = 1600 /month = 1100 after tax.
Minus the interest of over 20,000 (nope- TCA will not be paying that!)
Did you borrow that 13,000 for living expenses? Take that off too.
Notice that nobody has mentioned type rating yet? Doubt they'll be giving them away....
The amount of cash left over per month is eye watering. For SEVEN years.
The 'financial benefit' is just a bit of playing with figures. I've no doubt that this way is slightly cheaper than borrowing the cash for an integrated course, all living expenses and a type rating and then paying that back on 30k for seven years. But who in their right mind would do that (I know some do.
)
To put it another way, you pay a huge premium to go integrated and get the luxury of a conditional offer from an airline. Is that premium good value? Can you afford it?
For me, working and studying untill CPL stage and then getting a 25k loan for the rest (at Oxford if you must) is the best way to do it. Even if it takes 2 years to get a job, I'll still be financially streets ahead of an equivalent person on this scheme.
But thats just me!
EK
I don't think JB's guestimate is that far out. Oxford themselves say 64,000 plus 13,000.
Add interest, loss of earnings (a fair factor when used as a comparison with modular) and living expenses takes it to well over 100k, more realistically closer to 140k.
Then, there is the rather vague way in which the loan is repaid. Quite why you have to wait untill stage 2 before it is fully explained is a mystery. Obvioulsy not somthing which either party want to advertise!
'successful OAT/TCA candidates will benefit from a special Cadet First Officer salary programme. Over the first 7 years of employment, TCA will repay the graduate's actual OAT training and CAA costs by deduction from their gross salary.'
You start on a cadet salary, of, I believe, 20k (makes sense too as 65k / 7 years = about 10k per year and SO's start on 30k)
A bit of quick maths (not exact):
Salary of 20k = 1600 /month = 1100 after tax.
Minus the interest of over 20,000 (nope- TCA will not be paying that!)
Did you borrow that 13,000 for living expenses? Take that off too.
Notice that nobody has mentioned type rating yet? Doubt they'll be giving them away....
The amount of cash left over per month is eye watering. For SEVEN years.
The 'financial benefit' is just a bit of playing with figures. I've no doubt that this way is slightly cheaper than borrowing the cash for an integrated course, all living expenses and a type rating and then paying that back on 30k for seven years. But who in their right mind would do that (I know some do.
) To put it another way, you pay a huge premium to go integrated and get the luxury of a conditional offer from an airline. Is that premium good value? Can you afford it?
For me, working and studying untill CPL stage and then getting a 25k loan for the rest (at Oxford if you must) is the best way to do it. Even if it takes 2 years to get a job, I'll still be financially streets ahead of an equivalent person on this scheme.
But thats just me!
EK
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I heard a rumour that the chosen cadets, once employed by TCA, ontop of their basic starting salary, will get £1000 tax free each month - which goes to paying off the £64k training cost. perhaps this is why it is referred to as being 'financially attractive'. Thus you have stay with the airline for 7years for it to be effecitve? Hence, why it is financially better than the self sponsorships offered through FTE and Cabair (Flybe, Thomsonfly, BAConnect)
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An interesting take on facts;
So what security would that be? No vacancy, no job. Want cake and eat it comes to mind.
Oh yeah? What benefit is having a reduced salary?
Great, they pay.
Oh, no they don't, YOU pay, they just deduct and pass on the payments from YOUR salary. Got it. Oh and of course 3 years in you WON'T be at all pi**ed off at such a crap salary.
But alas not if they pay significantly less for Modular training and get a full F/O salary net from day 1.
So, total £77k. Is that what you pay back through reduced salary or is there interest on this 'loan' not accounted for in these figures?
Check it out parents, you could get stiffed here too!
Hold on, how does that work. You sign up for the loan, they offer a 'conditional job offer' (presumably one of the conditions being you pass and get the licence issued?) You fail, your loan, with your 'parental guarantee', your problem paying it back, right? Or do TCUK bail you out if you fail, but only make you pay if you pass?
I don't think so. What am I missing here?
Oh, just add that to my £77k tab would you please?
WOW! Something for free....!!!!
Sorry, how much will that be per day?
Sod it, just add it to the bill. Thanks.
Could I not phone you to make a downpayment on my account?????
Save your money guys, go modular. If the market keeps going the way it is you should get a job anyhow and in 7 years you should have about 5 years experience and more importantly have paid off your £30k loan and potentially have around 5 years on FULL F/O salary. Why do TCUK want to use this scheme? It's not for your benefit, it is for theirs. They, like most airlines want you to take all the risk, you to have the millstone for 7 years because they know time to command in their airline is going up and to quote their former Chief Pilot "I am fed up of 2-3000hr F/Os bleating on about when they are going to get a command." This is why they started using CTC all those years ago getting very low houred pilots who would need at least 7 years to get the hours for a command as opposed to a 2-3000hr experienced F/Os from other airlines. Oh and of course you will be cheap, very cheap.
Enjoy if you go for it, but go in with your eyes open and realize that you probably won't earn enough to get a mortgage for 7 years as well as your loan....
PP
In addition to the security of ‘conditional employment’
successful OAT/TCA candidates will benefit from a special Cadet First Officer salary programme.
Over the first 7 years of employment, TCA will repay the graduate's actual OAT training and CAA costs by deduction from their gross salary.
Oh, no they don't, YOU pay, they just deduct and pass on the payments from YOUR salary. Got it. Oh and of course 3 years in you WON'T be at all pi**ed off at such a crap salary.
The effect of this 'repayment' arrangement will be that graduates will achieve significant financial benefit compared to the more usual situation of repaying these training costs themselves out of a normal First Officer net salary.
Under the Scheme, OAT training will cost £60,000 plus £4,000 for the CAA test fees.
The successful applicants will therefore need approximately £13,000 of their own funds to participate in the programme.
For UK residents, full security will not be necessary, but the equivalent to a ‘parental guarantee’ will be required by the bank.
Airline recruitment of a self-sponsored student occurs only after completion of training, meaning that the student bears the entire risk of training failure. In this scheme, the airline shares the risk.
I don't think so. What am I missing here?
OAT will charge a standard Skills Assessment Fee of £195
Any candidate who participates in one or both days of Stage 2 who does not eventually qualify for the OAT/TCA Scheme, would be able to complete the full APP FO Skills Assessment process at no extra charge should they subsequently decide to apply to join the course as a self-sponsored student.
All applicants who reach Stage 2 should be prepared to spend a maximum of 2 days at Oxford Airport.
Sod it, just add it to the bill. Thanks.
At this initial stage, we would ask that you do not contact us by telephone or e-mail in connection with the Scheme unless you are genuinely facing technical problems over the completion and submission of the application form itself.
Save your money guys, go modular. If the market keeps going the way it is you should get a job anyhow and in 7 years you should have about 5 years experience and more importantly have paid off your £30k loan and potentially have around 5 years on FULL F/O salary. Why do TCUK want to use this scheme? It's not for your benefit, it is for theirs. They, like most airlines want you to take all the risk, you to have the millstone for 7 years because they know time to command in their airline is going up and to quote their former Chief Pilot "I am fed up of 2-3000hr F/Os bleating on about when they are going to get a command." This is why they started using CTC all those years ago getting very low houred pilots who would need at least 7 years to get the hours for a command as opposed to a 2-3000hr experienced F/Os from other airlines. Oh and of course you will be cheap, very cheap.
Enjoy if you go for it, but go in with your eyes open and realize that you probably won't earn enough to get a mortgage for 7 years as well as your loan....
PP
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One good thing I REALLY like about this scheme:
"No upper age limit is given"
I can't go for it this year, but next year - definitely (if it’s offered)!
Good luck to all those who apply this year.
"No upper age limit is given"
I can't go for it this year, but next year - definitely (if it’s offered)!
Good luck to all those who apply this year.
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Originally Posted by X3k5
"This is all completely wrong.
First thing the 15000 for "Loss of earnings" is your own problem if you want to do integrated so that does not count at all."
First thing the 15000 for "Loss of earnings" is your own problem if you want to do integrated so that does not count at all."
I have no axe to grind I think Oxford is a first rate school but it is very expensive. You can stay in full time work the entire time you do a modular course which can offset all your living expenses and contribute towards the cost of funding training. I am not saying it is a right or wrong way to do things but that is a fact..... I am amazed at how you banish the concept of "opportunity cost" to the dustbin after it has been a cornerstone of economic theory put in place by much more intelligent people that you or I.
Geeez some things I read on these forums are simply nuts!
GSB
P.S. Am I right in thinking OAT are charging you over a £100 for the honor of under going selection for this scheme??
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Originally Posted by X3k5
This is all completely wrong.
First thing the 15000 for "Loss of earnings" is your own problem if you want to do integrated so that does not count at all.
And do you know what a sponsorship is????? The Airline pays the 65000 training costs. Read up on it before you start commenting. The costs are then covered by the airline by the reduced salary. And the interest rate is like 2-4% so 22500? I dont think so.
Oh and I think someone said you can get in without a Maths A level. TOTALLY UNTRUE. You have to show and verify that you have a maths a level or equivilant.
First thing the 15000 for "Loss of earnings" is your own problem if you want to do integrated so that does not count at all.
And do you know what a sponsorship is????? The Airline pays the 65000 training costs. Read up on it before you start commenting. The costs are then covered by the airline by the reduced salary. And the interest rate is like 2-4% so 22500? I dont think so.
Oh and I think someone said you can get in without a Maths A level. TOTALLY UNTRUE. You have to show and verify that you have a maths a level or equivilant.
2-4% interest? Try 2-4% ABOVE BASE which makes about 6.5 to 8.5% at todays rates. A 100 grand loan paid over 5 years would incur 17400 interest at 6.5% and 23,100 at 8.5%
I've completed an entire modular course including Full Motion 737 MCC for the same amount as that interest! And in less time than an integrated course, and without giving up my day job.
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Something I can't seem to be able to figure out is if TCA pays all of the training costs, and then the cadet pays it back over a period of time via a reduced wage, or whether the student pays all of the training costs and is offered a lower wage due to the guarantee of employment at the end of it? Anyone care to enlighten me?
Anyone care to enlighten me?
The Bank pays the training costs through the loan the student takes out.
Then either TCA pays the loan off (via a reduction in salary) over the seven years or, if they don't have vacancies when the student graduates, the student pays the loan off (Gulp!)!
Then either TCA pays the loan off (via a reduction in salary) over the seven years or, if they don't have vacancies when the student graduates, the student pays the loan off (Gulp!)!
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I hope your grip on your own finances is better than your grip on basic economics! How can you say loss of earnings doesn't count when it comes to the integrated vs modular debate
For the layman - what I mean is that how you value the future earnings and present costs in cash terms is how you make a decision, no based upon "potential" earnings and costs.
Your cost of integrated vs modular is as follows (modular column 1, integrated column 2 - indicative only):
Year 1 -40,000 -75,000
Year 2 -10,000 -10,000
Year 4 _____0 _21,000
Year 3 15,000 23,000
Year 5 17,000 25,000
etc etc
Then discount each figure back by x% per year, and that will account for lost earnings as well through the rate you use. Lost earnings are accounted for as the future earnings are worth less when discounted back to the present day value when you make the investment decision.
Can you afford to live is another question...!
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You've got to remember that for some people, this isn't that big a financial commitment. A mate of mine went in to debt for 175K at 22 years of age, for a mortgage on a restaurant (part bank loan, part re-financing house etc...) If it fails, he's in DEEP sh
t. But he’s had no parental help etc – its all off his own back.
I've got another mate who is actually applying for this TCA scheme this year, and his parents are financing the lot (no bank loan needed and they don’t want repaying). Assuming he gets a place that is.
Not everyone struggles to find the financing, repay the loans and survive on a reduced salary - gits!
t. But he’s had no parental help etc – its all off his own back. I've got another mate who is actually applying for this TCA scheme this year, and his parents are financing the lot (no bank loan needed and they don’t want repaying). Assuming he gets a place that is.
Not everyone struggles to find the financing, repay the loans and survive on a reduced salary - gits!
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Originally Posted by X3k5
Oh and I think someone said you can get in without a Maths A level. TOTALLY UNTRUE. You have to show and verify that you have a maths a level or equivilant.
This scheme seems very similar to the CTC scheme, and i did read they "refund" the training costs or something along those lines.
Looking at the figures though, it is enough to make you cringe.