newly qualified pilots job situation
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newly qualified pilots job situation
I am currently considering putting myself through an integrated frozen ATPL course however am somewhat concerned about the potential lack of job prospects when I complete it in a year's time.
Does anybody have any recent experience of getting their first job?
What is the current situation like, and how long are people having to wait?
There are a lot of negative postings in the various forums regarding this, is there anyone out there who has something positive to say? eg"found a job in 2 months" etc.
Also, are things more difficult for fresh ATPL holders with the bare minimum hours and no type rating than those with say a few hundred hours?
If I was going to pay for my own type rating, what would be the best "generic "one to do, and how much are they?
Cheers,
Hedges.
( uk oriented replies please, however it would be interesting to hear from job hunters/finders from other countries as well)
Does anybody have any recent experience of getting their first job?
What is the current situation like, and how long are people having to wait?
There are a lot of negative postings in the various forums regarding this, is there anyone out there who has something positive to say? eg"found a job in 2 months" etc.
Also, are things more difficult for fresh ATPL holders with the bare minimum hours and no type rating than those with say a few hundred hours?
If I was going to pay for my own type rating, what would be the best "generic "one to do, and how much are they?
Cheers,
Hedges.
( uk oriented replies please, however it would be interesting to hear from job hunters/finders from other countries as well)
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I think it depends which bit of the country you are in.
I don't know anyone with a frozen ATPL and MCC who is looking for a job. Around where I am. But it seems to get worse the further south you go.
MJ
I don't know anyone with a frozen ATPL and MCC who is looking for a job. Around where I am. But it seems to get worse the further south you go.
MJ
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A frozen ATPL guy with minimum hours is going to find it very difficult to walk straight into a job (99% of the time). There are so many people paying for type ratings now that its becoming even more difficult.
The market is picking up, with more and more airlines requiring pilots. It also depends on how highly you see your immediate future. If you go into it with the mindset that your going to be happy flying a twin otter around the skies for 4 years after qualifying, your much more likely to succeed than the guy that wont get out of bed unless he is flying a 737.
My advice would be.....Get your ATPLs, CPL, IR, MCC. Then apply for jobs on everything, and if you still have no luck, get a type rating.
Looking at the schools as we speak, Stapleford have a scheme where you get all the qualifications needed (cpl,ir etc) then give you 100hrs on a 737 with Astraeus. This will cost you less than doing a full course at Oxford without the 737 included, and would certainly put you quite high up in the pile when it comes to CVs on the HRs desk.
The market is picking up, with more and more airlines requiring pilots. It also depends on how highly you see your immediate future. If you go into it with the mindset that your going to be happy flying a twin otter around the skies for 4 years after qualifying, your much more likely to succeed than the guy that wont get out of bed unless he is flying a 737.
My advice would be.....Get your ATPLs, CPL, IR, MCC. Then apply for jobs on everything, and if you still have no luck, get a type rating.
Looking at the schools as we speak, Stapleford have a scheme where you get all the qualifications needed (cpl,ir etc) then give you 100hrs on a 737 with Astraeus. This will cost you less than doing a full course at Oxford without the 737 included, and would certainly put you quite high up in the pile when it comes to CVs on the HRs desk.
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Jobs
The jobs are about guys... passed my IR last year in BOH, couple of quiet months.. then, well, right place, right time.. now on the B733 with **, had just short of 340hrs TT when I started. AND i knew noone on the 'inside!'
Far too many scaremongers around here.. unfortuantly we dont hear more of the MANY success stories. Mind you... perhaps that tells us all something.....?
Far too many scaremongers around here.. unfortuantly we dont hear more of the MANY success stories. Mind you... perhaps that tells us all something.....?
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We don't hear the success stories because Wannabes leave this forum like rats up a drainpipe as soon as they are employed, and seem to want to pull the ladder up behind them. With a few honourable exceptions, very few Wannabes have ever posted their experiences once they've started being paid to fly.
In any case, this forum is, by definition, for those who are unemployed. It's inevitably going to be a little introspective and downbeat from time to time.
Suffice to say that the UK jobs market now is as good as it's ever been. There are more Wannabes than jobs, however, so you still need to work hard to get what you want.
Scroggs
In any case, this forum is, by definition, for those who are unemployed. It's inevitably going to be a little introspective and downbeat from time to time.
Suffice to say that the UK jobs market now is as good as it's ever been. There are more Wannabes than jobs, however, so you still need to work hard to get what you want.
Scroggs
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I personally think you have to attack the job market with a positive attitude. As Del Boy says 'he who dares, wins.'It might not happen this month, this year or even next year, but I know it will happen as long as I put the effort in and stick at it.I never thought I would ever get as far as I am now, but I guess now the real hard work starts.
It is a shame that more people who do make it into the RHS, do not stick around and share their experiences.Its hard to believe at times,but people do actually make it and secure jobs
I've just finished my CPL/IR and have a MCC booked starting in just under 2 weeks time, so you will have to forgive my positive outlook.I'm sure I will be down in the dumps and fed up pretty soon
Now where's that Sainsbury's application form I had just a minute a go?
Good luck to everyone job hunting
JAS
It is a shame that more people who do make it into the RHS, do not stick around and share their experiences.Its hard to believe at times,but people do actually make it and secure jobs
I've just finished my CPL/IR and have a MCC booked starting in just under 2 weeks time, so you will have to forgive my positive outlook.I'm sure I will be down in the dumps and fed up pretty soon
Now where's that Sainsbury's application form I had just a minute a go?
Good luck to everyone job hunting
JAS
I sent off hundreds of cvs before getting even one interview. It was a very disheartening experience, I promise you. SInce I had handed in my notice with my then employer I had no option but to keep plugging away. I'm not quite sure how it works but suddenly I had three interviews in a matter of weeks with an excellent job offer from another quarter.
Persistence, networking and staying current are the keys to success.
Persistence, networking and staying current are the keys to success.
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I have a job now with a large airline, but it took me about 21 months and 700 hours of GA which were very fun, but poorly paid,
but this shows that you really have to persist in what you want and you'll get that job!
Good luck to you all!
but this shows that you really have to persist in what you want and you'll get that job!
Good luck to you all!
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Plugging away with CV's and staying current are the two most important things. I know people who send out a CV to every company once every 6 months, and sit at home waiting for the phone to ring. It won't!
I had set myself a target of getting a job in 3 months, then going on an FI course if I didn't. Luckily I got one after two, and I know a few guys I trained with who did too. Most on TP's, all modular, all min hours. Of the guys who didn't, some are instructing and getting jobs all the time now they have a few hours - because they are current. The guys who are just waiting for the job to come to them on a plate are still waiting. And losing currency every day.
Hedges
Don't plan to pay for a type rating at this stage. Do a search on the subject and you'll find many reasons not to. And remember the usual caveat applies, any research you do now, whilst useful, can be invalidated very quickly in aviation. Things can change for the better or worse at the drop of a hat.
Good luck!
I had set myself a target of getting a job in 3 months, then going on an FI course if I didn't. Luckily I got one after two, and I know a few guys I trained with who did too. Most on TP's, all modular, all min hours. Of the guys who didn't, some are instructing and getting jobs all the time now they have a few hours - because they are current. The guys who are just waiting for the job to come to them on a plate are still waiting. And losing currency every day.
Hedges
Don't plan to pay for a type rating at this stage. Do a search on the subject and you'll find many reasons not to. And remember the usual caveat applies, any research you do now, whilst useful, can be invalidated very quickly in aviation. Things can change for the better or worse at the drop of a hat.
Good luck!
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Since I've had lots of useful tips and interesting reading on this forum I'd thought I share my story with you, to help you get through all those exams, checkrides and whatever obstacles that stand in your way;
Started my CPL integrated 2001, finished 2003 and at the same time took on a modular course including ME/IR/ATPL theory and MCC course. Finished december 2004 and must have sent at least a couple of hundred CV's not to mention going and visit as many companies that I could think of. Got a call on hot afternoon in july this year, now 2 months into production as a F/O flying freight on a Caravan. Life is good!
Dont give up, and good luck with your lifes and careers!
/glider
Started my CPL integrated 2001, finished 2003 and at the same time took on a modular course including ME/IR/ATPL theory and MCC course. Finished december 2004 and must have sent at least a couple of hundred CV's not to mention going and visit as many companies that I could think of. Got a call on hot afternoon in july this year, now 2 months into production as a F/O flying freight on a Caravan. Life is good!
Dont give up, and good luck with your lifes and careers!
/glider
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JInks if you haven't had a sniff of a job in the last year I would personally think about getting a FI course done and shift where you live.
Either that or lie convicingly and start applying using a scottish contact address to scottish operators. There seems to be alot of very experenced Turboprop pilots getting sucked up by the likes of Thompson and the like. Aberdeen seem's to be swallowing up the local instructors. Logan Air have taken on several low houred guys recently. As well as BMI regional in both EDI and ABZ. The 2 Instructors in Inverness arn't qualified yet to be applying but I suspect they have already been marked for jobs when they do get all the tickets.
Apart from being bloody good fun 6 months instructing will get another 500 hours underyour belt. And access to all those companys and air taxi operators that either like instructors or need 700hours+ or what ever it is for public transport for JAR ops.
I think if you have been banging out CV's for a year. And constantly getting no reply or rejections you need to progress some how otherwise you are standing still with more people who are more current joining the pool. The getting your hours up to 1000hrs TT will put you above 90% of the others out there. And instructing will make you a better pilot.
MJ
Either that or lie convicingly and start applying using a scottish contact address to scottish operators. There seems to be alot of very experenced Turboprop pilots getting sucked up by the likes of Thompson and the like. Aberdeen seem's to be swallowing up the local instructors. Logan Air have taken on several low houred guys recently. As well as BMI regional in both EDI and ABZ. The 2 Instructors in Inverness arn't qualified yet to be applying but I suspect they have already been marked for jobs when they do get all the tickets.
Apart from being bloody good fun 6 months instructing will get another 500 hours underyour belt. And access to all those companys and air taxi operators that either like instructors or need 700hours+ or what ever it is for public transport for JAR ops.
I think if you have been banging out CV's for a year. And constantly getting no reply or rejections you need to progress some how otherwise you are standing still with more people who are more current joining the pool. The getting your hours up to 1000hrs TT will put you above 90% of the others out there. And instructing will make you a better pilot.
MJ
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Flying Instructor seems to be a good idea right now. Hearing lots of stories of a shortage but the key seems to be to do the rating in the UK. Most UK FTO's are not keen on employing low houred FI's who trained in the States.
The adverts seem to indicate a lowering in experience required so on the whole I think things are encouraging. As has been said though - currency, networking and persistance are the keys to success.
VFE.
The adverts seem to indicate a lowering in experience required so on the whole I think things are encouraging. As has been said though - currency, networking and persistance are the keys to success.
VFE.
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Hedges:
My story and timeline:
I graduated from university with the hope of applying to all sponsorships afterwards. If not successful I was planning to self fund a modular course. However 9/11 then happenned...
I did self fund but had to time it very carefully. As I have learned timing is everything in this industry. I worked out when I would be on the job market allowing my course to run over by 3 months.
In the mean time I got a relevant graduate job the help me towards the cost.
I ended up doing an integrated course at Cranfield Sept 2002 - Oct 2003. I managed first time passes in ground school and all flight tests (helps a lot if integrated with recommendations etc.)
Nov and Dec 2003 was spent doing CV's, on the phone to airlines and doing interview and simulator preperation.
January 2004: Selection with CTC and a TP operator.
Fabruary 2004: CTC MCC and Advanced handling course.
March 2004: Selection with easyJet.
April 2004: 737 Type rating.
Oct 2005: Just about to get my full ATPL. Airbus TR in November.
I was extremely lucky!! However on my course nearly everyone got a job within 6 months of finishing. Most with TP operators, myself and another jet jobs. The market now seems very good.
My advice is have a plan! Do your homework. Have target airlines you can concentrate on. Do your research on all the airlines you will apply to. Do that now, not when you finish. Have a CV done now and get this refined by showing lots of people. Go to the Balpa careers conference. Do well on your course. I used to get fed up with the whingers complaining about lack of flying. The same people couldn't see why Virgin wouldn't take 200hr FO's and and were shocked to hear TP FO's may earn under £18K (maybe a bit of research before spending 50K?). If you are willing to spend time at flightschool you will get slots. Look into flight instruction - courses costs etc. If I had nothing on the horizon 3-4 months after finishing I would have done an FI course. You have to keep flying and make yourself more attractive when your second CV to X airways gets sent off.
As for type ratings - It might be easy for me to say, but I really feel doing this will continue to decrease the overall T&C's for pilots. Look into it no doubt. Don't lose sight of reality though. As great as flying a 737 is, the thought of an additional 25K debt on top of existing 50K debt, increasing working hours and no social/family life may not make it worthwhile (and dont forget a reducing salary due to the number of people paying for ratings!).
All the best
My story and timeline:
I graduated from university with the hope of applying to all sponsorships afterwards. If not successful I was planning to self fund a modular course. However 9/11 then happenned...
I did self fund but had to time it very carefully. As I have learned timing is everything in this industry. I worked out when I would be on the job market allowing my course to run over by 3 months.
In the mean time I got a relevant graduate job the help me towards the cost.
I ended up doing an integrated course at Cranfield Sept 2002 - Oct 2003. I managed first time passes in ground school and all flight tests (helps a lot if integrated with recommendations etc.)
Nov and Dec 2003 was spent doing CV's, on the phone to airlines and doing interview and simulator preperation.
January 2004: Selection with CTC and a TP operator.
Fabruary 2004: CTC MCC and Advanced handling course.
March 2004: Selection with easyJet.
April 2004: 737 Type rating.
Oct 2005: Just about to get my full ATPL. Airbus TR in November.
I was extremely lucky!! However on my course nearly everyone got a job within 6 months of finishing. Most with TP operators, myself and another jet jobs. The market now seems very good.
My advice is have a plan! Do your homework. Have target airlines you can concentrate on. Do your research on all the airlines you will apply to. Do that now, not when you finish. Have a CV done now and get this refined by showing lots of people. Go to the Balpa careers conference. Do well on your course. I used to get fed up with the whingers complaining about lack of flying. The same people couldn't see why Virgin wouldn't take 200hr FO's and and were shocked to hear TP FO's may earn under £18K (maybe a bit of research before spending 50K?). If you are willing to spend time at flightschool you will get slots. Look into flight instruction - courses costs etc. If I had nothing on the horizon 3-4 months after finishing I would have done an FI course. You have to keep flying and make yourself more attractive when your second CV to X airways gets sent off.
As for type ratings - It might be easy for me to say, but I really feel doing this will continue to decrease the overall T&C's for pilots. Look into it no doubt. Don't lose sight of reality though. As great as flying a 737 is, the thought of an additional 25K debt on top of existing 50K debt, increasing working hours and no social/family life may not make it worthwhile (and dont forget a reducing salary due to the number of people paying for ratings!).
All the best
