Sick of it!!!!!!!!

[StudentInDebt]

Think it's bad now? You wanted to be around in the early 90's, no-one was recruiting at all. Then there was 2001 when an expanding airline industry suddenly began cutting drastically cutting back.

Funnily enough though, both these periods were followed by large increases in pilot recruitment - the phrase "monkey with an IR" being bandied about etc. We are currently seeing a large increase in recruitment in Europe but at the moment it is targetted mainly at pilots with airline experience. Thanks to the cuts in terms and conditions that all airlines have recently implemented there isn't much desire to move from the frying pan into the fire though. This is beginning to dawn on operators and slowly you will see T&Cs improve slightly to attract pilots from other operators, personally I think a return to the traditional bonded type-rating rather than self-sponsored is near for pilots with the experience the airlines need.

If you don't have any airline experience then things probably do look bleak, CTC's relentless domination of the jet entry positions, people doing self-sponsored jet type-ratings and the integrated graduates taking everything else. Well the truth is always different to the perceived reality and the truth is that there are lots of positions available. If you find that you are not getting interviews then perhaps you need to look at how you are going about trying to get them. How does your CV look, when did you last update it (especially phone numbers) , is it eyecatching and succinct? What are you writing in your covering letter, a friend of mine spent hours on tailoring his covering letters to selected airlines and it paid off. Do you know anyone in the airline who maybe able to help, make sure they are your friends and not just passing aquaintances and don't embarrass them by not showing up for an interview or using their name to batter down the receptionist barrier. There is age discrimination, older guys have it hard, but the smaller airlines do recruit them on the assumption that they will stay for a lot longer rather than suffer the disruption of moving after a few years.

Contrary to what has been stated here, BALPA do have an employment section that can offer you advice and they do look after their associate members as I found out during my flying schools' illegal attempt to make me redundant. At the BALPA job fair several of my mates who made a good impression went on to be employed. Yes, not everyone who turns up is going to get to chat to a chief pilot but you'd be surprised how often the guy from a smaller TP company sits in the corner with no-one to talk to while the guy from the jet airline suffers death by CV.

[A320rider]

to the one who say" no one force you to be a doctor!!!"

PLEASE, can you stop to say that!
nobody force you to be a doctor, an engineer, or an architect, or a chief.

But how many of these professions are asking you to pay to work? none.
When I start my training years ago, I did not know it would become so stinky like that.If I knew, I would not have start.

I have canceled my membership with BALPA.
Reason: they only protect the rich captains, but charge us a fortune for their stupid meeting in London.

If you join BAPLA, before to be employed, it will reduce your chance to be hired.

I will rejoin BALPA when I will be a BA captain.

[Superpilot]

A320rider smells suspiciously of Ronchonner doesn't he?

[solo si]

Scroggs,

We all know that nobody enticed us in to becoming professional pilots or spending tens of thousands of pounds on flying training.
With all due respect and by the sounds of it, you are currently employed by an airline and enjoying all the benefits that go with that job. Good for you!

We all have a right to our opinion and speaking not only for myself, but probably for the vast majority of others who have posted on this topic, is that we don't need be told the obvious. There are very few guarantees in life full stop. You mentioned people who have invested in medical training or legal studies etc. I have friends who have done both and all of them found work before even leaving University and yes they had debts, but around the £10 - £15 K mark, slightly different to what we all had to pay. I am sure that there are unemployed doctors and solicitors out there, but we are talking about people who have made massive sacrifices, both financially and personally. ' That was there decision and nobody made them do it' I hear you say. Yes you are right, but imagine if every one woke up one morning and said' that it's i am never to going to improve my self through education or professional study and I am happy staying in this dead end job or signing on for the rest of my life picking up my giro and sitting in the pub. Now we all know that there are people like that and I sometimes i wonder who is better off, but that's another subject. For the people with ambition and a bit of get up and go, we ahve made a big decision and one I hope we don't regret and only time will tell

We have all worked hard for a very difficult qualification and you cannot compare our flying training to a person who has studied for a professional qualification at University, with all due respect.

Scroogs, maybe you read about the guys with thousands of hours of experience on jets, and even they cannot get a job. This whole industry is geared toward the Integrated Oxford/Cabair student who is under 25, with no mortgage, no commitments and can be moulded into that airlines model. That is the kind of people that the airlines want, so maybe there should be age limit on the professional flying training to begin with.

I bet the CAA and all the big training schools would love that...not! How much money would the above listed loose by putting an age limit on training? My guess...millions! They are all very happy to take the money no matter what age you are, but when it comes to recruitment, sorry you are over 35 and you don't have the ability to study for a type rating anymore, because your learning curve is going in the wrong direction. Yeah right!

We don't want sympathy or empathy, but maybe a little encouragement and understanding might go some way, to keeping peoples chins up.

Just my opinion though!

[Mr Blue Eyes]

Well said Solo Si

All we ask is a fair crack!

God knows we work our socks off trying to get an interview and yes it is frustrating when you see Daddys little rich kid walk out of OAT with his £1000 pocket money and then get recommended for an interview with less than 200 hrs. Frustrating because I cannot work out why!

[Flintstone]

Flintstone=> the people who want to be in my position are mostly outsiders who don't have a clue about aviation.

No. I know of several people who are well aware of aviation but nevertheless would give their eye teeth to be where you are now.

Without wishing to sound like a boring old fart you make your own luck. I've been in your position with the slight difference of having had a family in tow. I did all the crap jobs to pay my bills and keep the family and you know what happened? I got 'lucky'.

After several hundred letters, phone calls and incessant pestering my CV happened to land on the top of the pile when a company needed someone to fill a space on interviews. 'Lucky' I sent it when I did, eh?

As one who went the self improver route I fully sympathise with the comments about those whose way is paid for by rich parents or benefactors. I trained with them and as an instructor I trained them. As an interviewer I confess I paid extra attention to them when they were in front of me looking for a job. Did they want it as badly as the guy who had worked three jobs at once to pay his own way or did they just like the uniform?

dboy. You say you feel like a failure now but how will you feel in five years if you walk away now? Stay or go, neither will be easy but whoever said life is easy?

[Re-Heat]

nobody force you to be a doctor, an engineer, or an architect, or a chief.
But how many of these professions are asking you to pay to work? none.

You mean except for the large student loans, years of university study, and constant examinations paid for by employees themselves in retaining curreny experience as a doctor, architect, engineer?

Get real - everyone faces some training costs - it is simply a matter of people being too willing to pay costs themselves that ensures the high training costs in this industry.

[Mr Wonka]

Solo Si

Thanks for speaking up and you are right, you do speak for many of us who are stuggling to keep going and keep our sanity. I droped out of BALPA a few years back, due to there lack of interest and when i did need there assistance I found better advice from a lawyer on the high street.

Solo Si I am with you and this is atopic needed saying for a long time. Sadly I dont see much changing in the future, you will always need deeper and deeper pockets. With the news that so many out there are trying to pay for line training, this only makes the situation worse. Are the CAA concerened with this ?

I need the chocolate pump fixed, think the plumber will come and fix it for free ? How about this spot of toothache ? think he fix it for free ?

Boy if only i could get these umpalumpas to come and work for nothiing..... that would be the day !!!!!!

Solo Si , Do you think the press would be interested in this ?

Mr W

[solo si]

Mr Wonka,

Thanks for your reply. I have been thinking of writing to the Employment/Education secretary. The government want us all to better for ourselves and boost the economy whenever it suits them, so maybe they need to be aware of the current situation.

Personally, I think very few care what we all think. I've even been thinking of starting my own alirline. Why not? It seems the only way of getting a flying job...employ myself!

Start off small and provide a service which we think would be profitable and successful. We've all come this far, why not go the whole hog?

Just my thoughts guys!!

[scroggs]

You mentioned people who have invested in medical training or legal studies etc. I have friends who have done both and all of them found work before even leaving University and yes they had debts, but around the £10 - £15 K mark, slightly different to what we all had to pay.

The amount of money you pay for your training does not translate into a greater right of employment.

I am sure that there are unemployed doctors and solicitors out there

Yes, there are. Something like 15% of medical graduates (who could reasonably expect to be employed at a time of NHS expansion) were left without a job this summer.

but we are talking about people who have made massive sacrifices, both financially and personally.

I refer you to my first point. The amount you spend is irrelevant to your chances of employment. However, surely the greater investment suggests that you need to arm yourself with all the facts about your job prospects before you spend the money. I am constantly amazed at the number of people who spend £50k or more on pilot training and yet only have a sketchy understanding of the market they're trying to get into.

That was there[sic] decision and nobody made them do it' I hear you say. Yes you are right, but imagine if every one woke up one morning and said' that it's i am never to going to improve my self through education or professional study and I am happy staying in this dead end job or signing on for the rest of my life picking up my giro and sitting in the pub

.

Perfectly correct, but, once again, the size of the investment demands that you need to trust to more than luck. Those that prepare best have the best chance of employment - and this is the best employment market for several years.

We have all worked hard for a very difficult qualification and you cannot compare our flying training to a person who has studied for a professional qualification at University, with all due respect.

Yes, I can. The academic standards required of a lawyer or doctor are far higher than those required of a pilot. University study is subsidised by the public; if it were not, medical training (in particular) would be very, very much more expensive than flying training.

Scroggs, maybe you read about the guys with thousands of hours of experience on jets, and even they cannot get a job.

They exist, but something like 400 experienced pilots got jobs in UK in the last year, 70 in Virgin (my company).

This whole industry is geared toward the Integrated Oxford/Cabair student who is under 25, with no mortgage, no commitments and can be moulded into that airlines model. That is the kind of people that the airlines want, so maybe there should be age limit on the professional flying training to begin with.

Actually, there is an age limit for most of the airline-related courses, such as Oxford's APP and CTC's scheme, as there is for the RAF and RN. That in itself should be a clue that starting after that kind of age is more risky, however there are plenty of people who get their first job as late as their 40s. Trouble is, the wannabes who've got jobs don't generally come back and tell you about it, so nearly all the people on this forum are unemployed, which gives the wrong impression of the industry.

We don't want sympathy or empathy, but maybe a little encouragement and understanding might go some way, to keeping peoples chins up.

For sympathy, go to your Mum or your girlfriend/boyfriend. For empthy, you have plenty of people here sharing your circumstances. I only offer you the facts, unvarnished. You want to be told, "There, there, it'll all be alright"; you're in the wrong place.

Scroggs

[A320rider]

How is the situation for helicopter pilots?

[uncle dickie]

This industry must be one of the very few where the individual does not have to be selected to commence training with an approved organisation.

To train for medicine, law etc the competition is very tough, and only a fairly low percentage are successful.

Aviation on the other hand [excluding the military] seems to be as much a function of ones cheque book as anything else.

So it is hardly surprising that not everybody who is issued with a blue book ends up in the right hand seat.

[scroggs]

I'm not sure that medicine or law are more competitive than aviation, but it is true that (at least for school-leavers) there are filters pre-training to ensure that only those likely to succeed are allowed to start training. The miltary, as you suggest, apply more intensive filtering, and still lose a high percentage in training. The integrated schools and CTC also pre-select many of their students in an attempt to ensure that the drop-out rate is reasonably low, and can show fairly high employment statistics to support their approach.

In almost any field, it is possible to pay for speculative training once you are out of the formal education treadmill. Unfortunately, when the only arbiter of whether you can do the training is the size of your wallet, it's inevitable that many of those who pay and complete the course do not subsequently find employment, either through lack of jobs or lack of qualities that employers are looking for. Some are just unlucky, and find themselves perpetually in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It should go without saying: just because you want to do the job doesn't mean that the world will give it to you. Nor do you earn the right to a job as a pilot by getting the licence. It is a competitive business; only the best will succeed. Of course, what defines 'the best' may be contentious, and you may disagree with the criteria - but you aren't the employers.

For helicopter job information, have a look in 'Rotorheads'.

Scroggs

[parkfell]

That long term investment.

What any potential professional pilot must remember is that the FTO will invariably be asked to comment on you by the prospective airline employer. The expensive year plus training course at Oxford, Jerez, or where ever, is in fact a continuous interview process. Blot your copy book during training and you will find most airlines will look elsewhere to fill that vacant right hand seat.

I am not saying suck up to those at the FTO, just be a normal person who demonstrates what is regarded as good CRM skills; this will go a long way. Sure, doing well in groundschool and flying is important - not that you have to be "ace of the base" but just a steady Eddie who can be relied upon.

The FTOs are well versed in what makes an appropriate FO.

[Mister Geezer]

The CAA nor BALPA will not stand in and fight your case. The more exams and flights tests that are sat means extra revenue for the CAA and the more people that enter flight training could be potential BALPA members.

I would agree with Scroggs when it comes to the financial input has no relationship to your chances of sucess. I come from an integrated background and to be quite honest the extra money my course cost didn't improve my employment chances at the end.

Luck does play a small part however dboy.. do the following.

• Ask yourself have I got more to loose packing it in now than fighting on?
• Look in detail at your CV - is the presentation good enough?
• Get a copy of JP Airline fleets - you can never apply to too many airlines.
• Consider getting a job on the ground at an airport or with an airline. Working in a supermarket will not be a eye catching feature on your CV!
• Get glider towing or get a FI rating and instruct!

I'm 29 years old, still living with my parents, no girlfriend, having a job in the local supermarket etc all for the sake of this bloody little paper which cost me about 75.000eur. I want to start a life!!!

You probably won't have much of a life when you get a airline job either! Especially if you have to relocate somewhere new. Having no partner and living with your parents is nothing to be ashamed about. Your family and friends should and probably do respect you for achieving your licence but you will probably become more depressed if you throw it all away!

When I got my first airline job my life dissapeared as I had to relocate to somewhere where I didn't want to go to and stay in a place where I didn't know anyone. I have since changed companies and I am back home but don't think that the life of a airline pilot is a bed or roses. The flying is fantastic but if you are based somewhere where you don't want to be based - it is terrible. Talk to your folks and friends and get them to talk it over with you! Don't give up!

[ATP_Al]

I am a low hours pilot looking for his first proper job now and I can't say I agree with some of the arguments in this thread. It isn't easy, but no-one ever said it would be!

However, things do start to happen if you get off your ass and try to make your own luck. After I got my PPL I towed gliders to build hours. Once I had my frozen ATPL this experience opened the door to a parachute dropping job on a twin. Now I have almost 700hrs and have had some very positive responses from air taxi companies. Once you have a flying job, even if it's on a piston single, you'll find it a lot easier to get another one. Doors will start to open and you'll be climbing the ladder. Similiar things have happened to friends in Ops jobs.

In defence of BALPA, Maggie Pecnik has been extremely helpful whenever I have had an airline interview or assessment. She has provided me with company information and detailed resumes of interviews from previous candidates. This advice has helped me get through to the final stage interview for a jet charter airline and into the holding pool for a regional turboprop airline. This system will only work if people play their part and feed information back into the system, as I have tried to do as much as possible.

Good luck,

Al

[Mister Geezer]

Most of the information you get from BALPA will be available on this website... and PPRuNe is free. I keep on asking myself if the BALPA subscription is worth it!

[Flintstone]

Mr Wonka For what it's worth I sympathise, I really do. I know that won't help you find a job though.

You are right about needing deeper pockets but here's something to consider. It all got worse the day someone said "I'll pay for my type rating". Not sure if that was before or after the bastard who offered to work for nothing.

In my opinion bonding is the fairest method but paying for ratings and working for free are the root of all evil. If I had to chose one as a reason for going to hell it would be the latter.


ATP_Al You are dead right. Why do some people believe they have the inalienable right to go straight to a heavy jet as their first job?

I can't help thinking that some people are unemployed because they refuse to lower their sights. I would value the (more rounded) experience of someone who had worked their way up in the manner you describe over that of someone who has had their way greased to the right hand seat of an airliner any day.

[prob30]

I am admitedly a little out of touch on how the market stands for 200 hour guys but could someone clarify something for me?

Which airlines 'make' you pay for your type rating?
Which airlines ask you to work for nothing?

EZY, Jet2, Thompsonfly, Flybe, Aurigny, BA, Monarch, First choice, Bmi baby all spring to mind as those that dont... So who do?

I fail to see how one can claim that this industry is now asking you to buy a type rating and work for nothing.

your sincerely,

Cabair integrated graduate not that long afer 9/11 when there were nooooo jobs around ,200 hours, got a job within 6 months on TP, now on Jet, devoid of silver spoon or daddys deep pockets, and recently remortgaged the house - again, driving a ten year old car and finding it a bit of an insult that you blokes reckon its only rich kids that get on at this game. It's luck and you can make your own luck - if you are lucky!

[Mister Geezer]

There is paying for your rating and paying for your rating and getting your money back over a period. The latter practice seems to be more acceptable but it is one that still requires money up front.

EZY - TRSS reduced salary means that you are indirectly paying for your rating but that is picking hairs and no money is needed unless you wish to pay for it up front and start on a full direct entry salary.

Jet2 - Money needed up front but you get it back over time.

Flybe - No money for the type rating but some of the Oxford folks are needing to stump up a couple of grand before they join.

Aurigny - Don't know but think the traditional bond still applies.

Thompsonfly, BA, Monarch, First choice & Bmi baby all seem to do things the traditional way.

Interesting to note that bmi (mainline) have tied up a deal or Oxford were trying to tie up a deal with GECAT. You paid for your own Airbus rating and worked for bmi. Might of been on a temporary contract but don't quote me on that.