Is the a difference between a young Integrated and older modular guy.
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Is the a difference between a young Integrated and older modular guy.
Is the a difference between a young Integrated and older modular guy.
As I keep asking, what's the real difference between a 25 year old 250 hours Oxford/Cabair integrated guy who signed upto a £60,000 debt and a mid 30 year old 250 hours modular guy with a £35,000 debt who in my view has a bit more life experience and was responsible for paying the mortgage and providing for wife, kid, dog and a cat whilst training. Forgot to mention the bloody goldfish.
Views from a Captain or airline management would be appreciated.
No offence meant to anyone from Cabair or Oxford or the training providers
As I keep asking, what's the real difference between a 25 year old 250 hours Oxford/Cabair integrated guy who signed upto a £60,000 debt and a mid 30 year old 250 hours modular guy with a £35,000 debt who in my view has a bit more life experience and was responsible for paying the mortgage and providing for wife, kid, dog and a cat whilst training. Forgot to mention the bloody goldfish.
Views from a Captain or airline management would be appreciated.
No offence meant to anyone from Cabair or Oxford or the training providers
Last edited by EGCC4284; 27th Aug 2005 at 14:53.
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In my view, its what the person is like as an individual. There have been integrated turned down by BA recently if my memory serves me correctly. I think its all getting to a point of labelling modular/integrated. At the end of the day intergrated will be viewed as solid from start to finish training and that is where i think the interest is lying. However i was modular and went from start to finish without a break, HELLO! except i chose who trained me for various things. It has been in the grape vine that Oxfords flying has not been as good as say Bristol, though the ground school is excellent, (debate debate) I kept it neat and tidy. What interests me is that we all have to fill the SAME licence criteria and all receive the SAME licence. Then its just a case of hours. Beats me. I do think there is a little un fairness, but as my good wife tells me , if they dont want you its there loss.
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I suppose it is all about the integrated people being a 'known quantity' and some good marketing by the training provider.
It doesn't seem a fair way, or particularly astute way of selecting, but recruitment seems to be reactionary by the airlines rather than proactive. Therefore somebody, ie Oxford/Cabair popping forwards and saying hey I have an immediate solution for you - less training risk because we have seen them perform for 12-18 months etc etc. is a way of getting rid of a problem. It also saves you having to trawl through hundreds of applications from modular guys - most of which are very similar on paper. How do you choose - if you need a quick solution you go with the option that has done the trawling and thinking for you.
I compare it to booking a holiday. You can pick your own destination (doing your own research about whether it suits your needs of not), find an airline that flies there, sort out the flights, book your transfers, organise your own activity etc etc. Lots of work, you have to juggle things like flight times and dates around available accommodation etc. You have to make your own decisions, and if it is not right who do you moan at? It is your fault - not everybody wants that responsability.
Or if you want an easy solution you go to a travel advisor - they say I know what you like and want. They choose the destination and arrange everything for you. You don't need to think about anything, it takes no time, it is less stress - cause if it isn't right or goes wrong it is there fault not yours.
Think of the pressure selecting pilots and the money spent on training - even if the students pay their own type rating if they fail, your schedule is up the wall. If you are an employee it takes guts to stick your neck out and make selections. I can not see an airline having a positive view on your career if you select a handful of pilots that fail the type rating or don't pass the line. Much better to take the integrated people - if it goes wrong then it is that damn training organisation. Drag them in and give them a b*llocking - make sure they vet the recommendations better next time.
This is in my opinion the pragmatic view of it - I am 30 plus and an instructor so I know where you arecoming from Eggc - however the integrated people have paid the money and taken their chance. If they get a break because of that then that is life, and even on a level playing field they may be better pilots or characters. They have still had to pass the same tests, go through interview, do sim tests. So at the end of the day they deserve the jobs they get. Any favourtism (if it exists) is not their fault. We need to pick at the bits left over!
We are not going to change the selection procedures, so we need to just plug away.
In your case EGGC4284 I think it is the curly hair. As I say don't put your picture on the application. Also I have seen your navigation and unless you find an airline that supplies mystery tours you may be stuck!
Keep your chin up - just because Thomas Cook don't want either of us then all is not lost. As V2andsome suggests - they are just going to have to wait before they get the pleasure of employing us.
It doesn't seem a fair way, or particularly astute way of selecting, but recruitment seems to be reactionary by the airlines rather than proactive. Therefore somebody, ie Oxford/Cabair popping forwards and saying hey I have an immediate solution for you - less training risk because we have seen them perform for 12-18 months etc etc. is a way of getting rid of a problem. It also saves you having to trawl through hundreds of applications from modular guys - most of which are very similar on paper. How do you choose - if you need a quick solution you go with the option that has done the trawling and thinking for you.
I compare it to booking a holiday. You can pick your own destination (doing your own research about whether it suits your needs of not), find an airline that flies there, sort out the flights, book your transfers, organise your own activity etc etc. Lots of work, you have to juggle things like flight times and dates around available accommodation etc. You have to make your own decisions, and if it is not right who do you moan at? It is your fault - not everybody wants that responsability.
Or if you want an easy solution you go to a travel advisor - they say I know what you like and want. They choose the destination and arrange everything for you. You don't need to think about anything, it takes no time, it is less stress - cause if it isn't right or goes wrong it is there fault not yours.
Think of the pressure selecting pilots and the money spent on training - even if the students pay their own type rating if they fail, your schedule is up the wall. If you are an employee it takes guts to stick your neck out and make selections. I can not see an airline having a positive view on your career if you select a handful of pilots that fail the type rating or don't pass the line. Much better to take the integrated people - if it goes wrong then it is that damn training organisation. Drag them in and give them a b*llocking - make sure they vet the recommendations better next time.
This is in my opinion the pragmatic view of it - I am 30 plus and an instructor so I know where you arecoming from Eggc - however the integrated people have paid the money and taken their chance. If they get a break because of that then that is life, and even on a level playing field they may be better pilots or characters. They have still had to pass the same tests, go through interview, do sim tests. So at the end of the day they deserve the jobs they get. Any favourtism (if it exists) is not their fault. We need to pick at the bits left over!
We are not going to change the selection procedures, so we need to just plug away.
In your case EGGC4284 I think it is the curly hair. As I say don't put your picture on the application. Also I have seen your navigation and unless you find an airline that supplies mystery tours you may be stuck!
Keep your chin up - just because Thomas Cook don't want either of us then all is not lost. As V2andsome suggests - they are just going to have to wait before they get the pleasure of employing us.
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I know a number of airlines have experienced 'problems' with older guys struggling with the sheer volume of a type rating, or so they say. Don't shoot the messenger as I know there are exceptions to every rule and equally there will be younger guys who have failed type ratings and cost airlines money.
I think it comes to to mass generalisations; in their experience the younger guys are less of a risk factor because they tend to learn quicker.
Anyhow, keep plugging away and don't set your sights too high for the first break.
PP
I think it comes to to mass generalisations; in their experience the younger guys are less of a risk factor because they tend to learn quicker.
Anyhow, keep plugging away and don't set your sights too high for the first break.
PP
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Out of 18 currently "serving" airline pilots who I personally know, 5 were ex-mil multi-jet captains, 2 were integrated students and "the rest" were modular.
Read into that what you will...horses for courses methinks....
correction...21...of which 14 are modular.
Read into that what you will...horses for courses methinks....
correction...21...of which 14 are modular.
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Is there a difference ? Well yes.
Firstly the debt you signed up to is irrelevant, that is your problem and of no interest to a potential employer. Likewise the wife, kids, mortgage, goldfish. They are all your concern not the employers.
The age is a difference. Yes you may have more life experience but that will probably hold little sway if you are also competing with 30 year olds coming out of the military with solid flying experience. Likewise 30 year olds from other flying backgrounds who may be able to offer more relevant flying experience.
As for the 25 year old with similar hours. Lets be honest 250 hours is next to nothing to an employer and if they are seriously considering such low hour candidates the competition is likely to be intense for such places. Somebody who can offer a good training background, good education, and a personality that seems to fit the bill will also have the advantage of 5 years on the 30 year old candidate.
At the end of the day, if you are overcome the hurdle of interview selection, you have the opportunity to sell yourself. Ultimately that will likely be the deciding factor. A 21 year old adonis trained at the best school money can buy, and touched by the hand of God, will still be sent packing if he doesn't impress the selection panel. Personality counts for a lot, but it is often a difficult choice with many good candidates, and it would be untrue to suggest that youth and a solid training background isn't an advantage in an otherwise equal field.
Firstly the debt you signed up to is irrelevant, that is your problem and of no interest to a potential employer. Likewise the wife, kids, mortgage, goldfish. They are all your concern not the employers.
The age is a difference. Yes you may have more life experience but that will probably hold little sway if you are also competing with 30 year olds coming out of the military with solid flying experience. Likewise 30 year olds from other flying backgrounds who may be able to offer more relevant flying experience.
As for the 25 year old with similar hours. Lets be honest 250 hours is next to nothing to an employer and if they are seriously considering such low hour candidates the competition is likely to be intense for such places. Somebody who can offer a good training background, good education, and a personality that seems to fit the bill will also have the advantage of 5 years on the 30 year old candidate.
At the end of the day, if you are overcome the hurdle of interview selection, you have the opportunity to sell yourself. Ultimately that will likely be the deciding factor. A 21 year old adonis trained at the best school money can buy, and touched by the hand of God, will still be sent packing if he doesn't impress the selection panel. Personality counts for a lot, but it is often a difficult choice with many good candidates, and it would be untrue to suggest that youth and a solid training background isn't an advantage in an otherwise equal field.
