Cv Suggestion
It counts for ATPL issue but there is still no way it should be included in a cv. In the JAR-FCL approved logbooks, is there a column for simulator time (not simulated IF)? Of course not, it's at the back somewhere.
If you include sim time it will look like padding. I spent 4 hrs in a 747 sim last year but I would look a complete to55er if I claimed that in my total time.
This topic has been covered before and the informed opinion has always to leave it out.
If you include sim time it will look like padding. I spent 4 hrs in a 747 sim last year but I would look a complete to55er if I claimed that in my total time.
This topic has been covered before and the informed opinion has always to leave it out.
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Why shouldn't you include it??
You're effectively doing yourself out of (up to) 100 hrs experience.
If it means the difference between having an ATPL or not, I'd certainly put it in.
We're talking about formal training spent in a sim, not hrs "logged" as some xmas gift........
You're effectively doing yourself out of (up to) 100 hrs experience.
If it means the difference between having an ATPL or not, I'd certainly put it in.
We're talking about formal training spent in a sim, not hrs "logged" as some xmas gift........
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Ham Phisted
Just had a look at my son's Jeppesen Jar-FCL 1.080 approved Pilot Logbook and there is a column ( 11 ) on every page for " Synthetic Training Devices Session" and it in turn is sub-divided into three columns: Date, Type and Total Time of Session.
Willby
In the JAR-FCL approved logbooks, is there a column for simulator time (not simulated IF)? Of course not, it's at the back somewhere.
Willby
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C.V:
TT: XXX hrs (X Single Engine, Y Multi Engine, Z Sim),
Then the airline can see your total time broken down.. it should be included in Total Time, unless stipulated as Total Flight Hours, then it should be excluded.
I have 80-90 hours sim on various types of the 737, I feel this is more valuable to an airline than the c.5 hrs flying I have done in aerobatic a/c!
, although the aeros were bloody good fun!!
Thus, include it in your C.V, but clearly stated so that the airline doesn't think you have more flight hours than you do.. most embarrassing
5150: A well substantiated view, I concur
Ham Phisted: I have a JAR-FCL approved log book and the sim time section is actually at the front, does that make it even more important? Only kidding
TT: XXX hrs (X Single Engine, Y Multi Engine, Z Sim),
Then the airline can see your total time broken down.. it should be included in Total Time, unless stipulated as Total Flight Hours, then it should be excluded.
I have 80-90 hours sim on various types of the 737, I feel this is more valuable to an airline than the c.5 hrs flying I have done in aerobatic a/c!
, although the aeros were bloody good fun!!Thus, include it in your C.V, but clearly stated so that the airline doesn't think you have more flight hours than you do.. most embarrassing
5150: A well substantiated view, I concur
Ham Phisted: I have a JAR-FCL approved log book and the sim time section is actually at the front, does that make it even more important? Only kidding
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Running the risk of turning this into a pantomine, Oh no it doesn't!!
True, that sim time is creditable towards courses and licence issue but that is not the question here. However, sim time is not flight time and must not be recorded as such. Sim time must be logged seperately from flight time recorded in the logbook.
Total Time is Total Time of flight. What is not is sim time, nor time spent farting around in crewing, neither drinking coffee whilst watching a student doing a walkaround. Flight time is time from brakes off to brakes on, with the intent of flight. Ergo total time is the culmination of such. If you want to decieve a potential employer that you have more experience then how do you percieve the interview going? So Bloggs, your CV states that you have an extra 50 hours experience than you logbook, care to explain this? Hmm, Good Luck.
True, that sim time is creditable towards courses and licence issue but that is not the question here. However, sim time is not flight time and must not be recorded as such. Sim time must be logged seperately from flight time recorded in the logbook.
Total Time is Total Time of flight. What is not is sim time, nor time spent farting around in crewing, neither drinking coffee whilst watching a student doing a walkaround. Flight time is time from brakes off to brakes on, with the intent of flight. Ergo total time is the culmination of such. If you want to decieve a potential employer that you have more experience then how do you percieve the interview going? So Bloggs, your CV states that you have an extra 50 hours experience than you logbook, care to explain this? Hmm, Good Luck.
Está servira para distraerle.
Yes but there is a section in CAP 407 for simulator time.Before an interview why not do a logbook summary.
Totalise the hours, then log sim time underneath and add the two tgether to gve a grand total. This is then immediately apparent to any grouchy interview chief pilot and he can separate it as he wishes. It makes life easier for him and it looks good too. Also, it gives you the opportunity to correct the inevitable logbook errors with reasonable frequency.
Good luck all.
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Missing the point slightly Gus,
The actual question was:
There's no point made about Total Flight Time which you're are assuming in your subsequent post. bufe's asking about Grand Total's which isn't quite clear, so your point is not quite a closed case.
747 quite correctly states that there should be some division made between flight time and sim time, but nevertheless sim time IS Flight time as stipulated in Section G of this year's LASORS.
If I went to an employer with 80-90 hrs of 737 sim time, I'd be sure to mention it to an employer as Flight Hours and wouldn't be deceiving anyone. "So Bloggs why haven't you mentioned that you've got x amount of hours on a 737 Full Flight Sim? We've just spent thousands on training to reach the legal minimum requirement when you already had the experience.....Bloggs - you're an idiot!"
The actual question was:
SHOULD I COUNT MY SIM HOURS IN MY GRAND TOTAL, SPECIFYING IF NECESSARY "SyNTHETIC FLIGHT HOURS"?
747 quite correctly states that there should be some division made between flight time and sim time, but nevertheless sim time IS Flight time as stipulated in Section G of this year's LASORS.
If I went to an employer with 80-90 hrs of 737 sim time, I'd be sure to mention it to an employer as Flight Hours and wouldn't be deceiving anyone. "So Bloggs why haven't you mentioned that you've got x amount of hours on a 737 Full Flight Sim? We've just spent thousands on training to reach the legal minimum requirement when you already had the experience.....Bloggs - you're an idiot!"
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Nope, still stand by what I said.
By all means include what ever time you have in the sim on your CV, but do not include it in your Grand total or Total time.
Sim time is just that and is only used for licence or rating issue. The flight time is totally different to sim time and the two should not be mixed up. As an FI I would have no idea how to teach on a sim, and conversely, you wouldn't want someone who is rated on a sim, to teach PPL's. The two just don't go together.
In answer to the original post I suggest the following for CV layout
XXXX Total Time
XXXX Turbine
XXXX MEP
XXXX SEP
XXXX Simulator Time
XXXX B747
XXXX FNPTII
Keep them seperate.
By all means include what ever time you have in the sim on your CV, but do not include it in your Grand total or Total time.
Sim time is just that and is only used for licence or rating issue. The flight time is totally different to sim time and the two should not be mixed up. As an FI I would have no idea how to teach on a sim, and conversely, you wouldn't want someone who is rated on a sim, to teach PPL's. The two just don't go together.
In answer to the original post I suggest the following for CV layout
XXXX Total Time
XXXX Turbine
XXXX MEP
XXXX SEP
XXXX Simulator Time
XXXX B747
XXXX FNPTII
Keep them seperate.
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If it's on an approved full flight Sim then it can be counted. If it's on an FNPT then don't. The guy reading your CV isn't interested in how long you have sat in a computer game that bears very little relation to an actual aircraft.
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As an FI I would have no idea how to teach on a sim, and conversely, you wouldn't want someone who is rated on a sim, to teach PPL's
Right, chaps, do it your way but be prepared to get booted when they find you've misrepresented your total flight time by including sim time.
What sort of sim time are you talking about anyway? If you're talking about a full motion level whatever then you're either on type-rating, JOT/JOC/MCC or a jolly. MCC training won't count because you are not being trained to fly the ac merely working together as a crew. So what type of sim time exactly are you talking about?
Whether you think it's more valuable than pottering around in a C150 is irrelevant. An employer wants to know how much actual flight experience you have.
What sort of sim time are you talking about anyway? If you're talking about a full motion level whatever then you're either on type-rating, JOT/JOC/MCC or a jolly. MCC training won't count because you are not being trained to fly the ac merely working together as a crew. So what type of sim time exactly are you talking about?
Whether you think it's more valuable than pottering around in a C150 is irrelevant. An employer wants to know how much actual flight experience you have.
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Fine - you're still getting sidetracked into what employers want - not ''SHOULD I COUNT SIM HOURS IN MY GRAND TOTAL''.
Here's the link you can read for yourself:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF
It ties in with the relevance of the original question - we're not talking about what employers are after, it's a question of (Grand) Total Time.......
Here's the link you can read for yourself:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF
It ties in with the relevance of the original question - we're not talking about what employers are after, it's a question of (Grand) Total Time.......
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5150 the reason the discussion is being sidetracked is because.....who is this total time for the benefit of??
If CAA for licence issue (CPL/ATPL) then they accept hours in sim as part of your training.
If you are calculating hours for an employer, then they are only really interested in actual flight time hours. Many airline application forms will ask for Flight Time and aircraft types that these were acquied on.
If you have Advanced Sim hours, (737 Level D etc) you will probably also have a type rating, however again actual flight hours on type and how these were acquired is of more use to an employer.
If you are a FrATPL with some hours in a jet sim but no rating, its irrelevent as any new type rating course will involve a complete syllabus not bypassing some bits you have done in a sim before.
Best way is to ask them...then post it here!
If CAA for licence issue (CPL/ATPL) then they accept hours in sim as part of your training.
If you are calculating hours for an employer, then they are only really interested in actual flight time hours. Many airline application forms will ask for Flight Time and aircraft types that these were acquied on.
If you have Advanced Sim hours, (737 Level D etc) you will probably also have a type rating, however again actual flight hours on type and how these were acquired is of more use to an employer.
If you are a FrATPL with some hours in a jet sim but no rating, its irrelevent as any new type rating course will involve a complete syllabus not bypassing some bits you have done in a sim before.
Best way is to ask them...then post it here!
5150,
You're definitely missing the point. The thread is entitled "cv suggestion" and is therefore entirely about what employers which to see on a cv!
You're definitely missing the point. The thread is entitled "cv suggestion" and is therefore entirely about what employers which to see on a cv!
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I don't think I'm "definitely" missing the point.
We've agreed on the fact that the hours should be noted as being seperate from total flying hours, but I see no reason to deny yourself out of experience which you can, quite rightly, claim.
I agree with the statement that FNPT's aren't decent simulators in as much as they're merely procedural traininers, but nevertheless, they're still approved and recognised by the CAA as synthetic devices on which, time on type can be logged.
It's mentioned in LASORS - check link above.
We've agreed on the fact that the hours should be noted as being seperate from total flying hours, but I see no reason to deny yourself out of experience which you can, quite rightly, claim.
I agree with the statement that FNPT's aren't decent simulators in as much as they're merely procedural traininers, but nevertheless, they're still approved and recognised by the CAA as synthetic devices on which, time on type can be logged.
It's mentioned in LASORS - check link above.
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I wouldn't include sim time in your total time on a CV - it's just not the done thing. As others have said this is not saying that sim time is worthless and doesn't count towards licence issue, just that the convention is to include only actual aircraft hours in your total time.
However, from my own experience, employers will be very interested in your instrument currency if you're a low hours fATPL. If you've done a few hours in an FNPT or jet sim since you qualified it could be well worth mentioning it in your covering letter!
Al
However, from my own experience, employers will be very interested in your instrument currency if you're a low hours fATPL. If you've done a few hours in an FNPT or jet sim since you qualified it could be well worth mentioning it in your covering letter!
Al
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5150
Do you currently fly for an airline? Only interested because you appear to be ignoring the facts as told to you from people who do.
I have worked for several airlines and not one of them has been/is interested in my many hundreds of hours in level D 737/757/767 sims. They want to know how many hours a pilot has in aeroplanes when you apply to them (check out the various application forms that many require you to fill in these days). If they want to know sim time, they will ask in a seperate question to the "how many hours do you have in aeroplanes, broken down into size/ weight" question.
So the point is, put it into your TT if you want (and no-one is denying that it counts toward licence issue), but don't be perceived to be claiming something you don't have. Clearly state what is a/c time and what is sim. The airline representative will then easily be able to subtract your sim time from your TT so that they are happy......and you are happy
The danger is claiming to meet a minimum requirement at application stage only for them to subsequently find that you don't. No prizes for guessing their next move.......
PP
Do you currently fly for an airline? Only interested because you appear to be ignoring the facts as told to you from people who do.
I have worked for several airlines and not one of them has been/is interested in my many hundreds of hours in level D 737/757/767 sims. They want to know how many hours a pilot has in aeroplanes when you apply to them (check out the various application forms that many require you to fill in these days). If they want to know sim time, they will ask in a seperate question to the "how many hours do you have in aeroplanes, broken down into size/ weight" question.
So the point is, put it into your TT if you want (and no-one is denying that it counts toward licence issue), but don't be perceived to be claiming something you don't have. Clearly state what is a/c time and what is sim. The airline representative will then easily be able to subtract your sim time from your TT so that they are happy......and you are happy
The danger is claiming to meet a minimum requirement at application stage only for them to subsequently find that you don't. No prizes for guessing their next move.......
PP