Gay and proud(ish)
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I think you should just warn the Captain and say, look if you drop your check list on the floor you may have to kick it all the way down the aisle to the rear toilets in the tail before bending over to pick it up because I am infact gay...
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Well, I'm a long-range Captain and I'm normal (I use that word on purpose) Working with homosexuals is a nuisance in the civil aviation world, but how can it be avoided ? there are simply too many of them.
You could easily get the 'push' for making remarks like that in the UK.
By the way, I am as straight as they come!!
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Recceguy or is it Race-guy Im a social smoker, can I be your freind, I only have a couple a day, more so when I have a beer, just want to be your mate because you sound such a nice guy...So you live on Clipperton island are you sure you're not a pirate..???
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Recceguy
As a 'long range captain' you're probably getting on a bit and therefore thankfully will be retiring in a few years. This is 2005 - Queen Victoria passed on quite a while ago...
Oh and I do sleep with men - but then I am a sexygirl!!
As a 'long range captain' you're probably getting on a bit and therefore thankfully will be retiring in a few years. This is 2005 - Queen Victoria passed on quite a while ago...
Oh and I do sleep with men - but then I am a sexygirl!!
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Don't feed the trolls - in this case, Recceguy. His post is intended only to wind you up; ignore it. However, his redneck attitude exists out there, in any walk of life, and you will have to learn to deal with it. However, don't worry too much about it; people like him are thankfully getting fewer.
Scroggs
Scroggs
I know with plenty of old military pilots kicking about there might be less open-mindedness than in other industries
RECCEGUY YOU'RE DISGUSTING, RACIST, AND STUPID.
Each to their own, but you don't have to wear a badge all the time....
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Dear Professor reynoldsno1,
you do not think that people who admit they don't like gay people,smokers and muslims are to be considered RACIST??????????.......Sorry to remind you that you can be racist even if you don't talk about race.
you do not think that people who admit they don't like gay people,smokers and muslims are to be considered RACIST??????????.......Sorry to remind you that you can be racist even if you don't talk about race.
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OK, that's enough.
I will not have this topic taken over by extreme points of view on either side of the argument - not that there was an argument until the idiots stepped in.
As a point of information, those with prejudices against habits, religions or sexualities may be all sorts of things, but they cannot be described as racist unless they make an overtly anti-race comment.
Scroggs
I will not have this topic taken over by extreme points of view on either side of the argument - not that there was an argument until the idiots stepped in.
As a point of information, those with prejudices against habits, religions or sexualities may be all sorts of things, but they cannot be described as racist unless they make an overtly anti-race comment.
Scroggs
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OK, my turn to answer, after a short bunch of flights back and forth over a little pool of saltwater.
It's my pleasure and my right to dislike who I want. I just don't have to spoil the working environment (understand the safe prosecution of the flight) by making my distaste obvious through inappropriate comments - which up to now I have been quite good in - and to the displeasure of some, I will be in the business for another 15 years.
I just got irritated by the first 19 posts of that thread, with everybody congratulating everybody, and positively stating that they would be happy with everyone behaving in any manner, and more if you want. And you will have noticed that by just expressing an opinion different of the one from the apparent majority, I got my fare share of insults and threats (without much argumentation, isn't it ?) There used to be names in the past for that.
So enough of political correctness, once again. I would have got problems in UK talking openly about my feelings ? Great, I'm from another civilisation, featuring a little bit less of focus on those poor human deviances. Maybe there are more of them the other side of the Channel ? (yes, I agree, that's an easy one)
And to give fuel to my detractors, the aircraft I flew were Mirages and Jaguars, and during more than 20 years of front-line squadron service, I never met any of ... them (and as Sqdn CO, I was aware of much) No, I had countless problems with NCOs and young pilots chasing the local beauties on overseas tours, and I had to wait to be out of the French Air Force to meet that nuisance which is the subject of the thread.
It's my pleasure and my right to dislike who I want. I just don't have to spoil the working environment (understand the safe prosecution of the flight) by making my distaste obvious through inappropriate comments - which up to now I have been quite good in - and to the displeasure of some, I will be in the business for another 15 years.
I just got irritated by the first 19 posts of that thread, with everybody congratulating everybody, and positively stating that they would be happy with everyone behaving in any manner, and more if you want. And you will have noticed that by just expressing an opinion different of the one from the apparent majority, I got my fare share of insults and threats (without much argumentation, isn't it ?) There used to be names in the past for that.
So enough of political correctness, once again. I would have got problems in UK talking openly about my feelings ? Great, I'm from another civilisation, featuring a little bit less of focus on those poor human deviances. Maybe there are more of them the other side of the Channel ? (yes, I agree, that's an easy one)
And to give fuel to my detractors, the aircraft I flew were Mirages and Jaguars, and during more than 20 years of front-line squadron service, I never met any of ... them (and as Sqdn CO, I was aware of much) No, I had countless problems with NCOs and young pilots chasing the local beauties on overseas tours, and I had to wait to be out of the French Air Force to meet that nuisance which is the subject of the thread.
Last edited by recceguy; 4th Aug 2005 at 19:34.
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Gays in the cockpit.
Just the subject is making me laugh.
At this point does anyone really care about someones sexual orientation. Hasn't that subject been beat to death.
I think a more interesting issue is HIV/AIDS. Sitting in close proximity to someone infected, breathing recirculated air, touching similar controls, switches ect.
It's not a gay thing as anyone can have this bug. What do you guys think about sitting for 5 hours next to a guy who's HIV infected?
At this point does anyone really care about someones sexual orientation. Hasn't that subject been beat to death.
I think a more interesting issue is HIV/AIDS. Sitting in close proximity to someone infected, breathing recirculated air, touching similar controls, switches ect.
It's not a gay thing as anyone can have this bug. What do you guys think about sitting for 5 hours next to a guy who's HIV infected?
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SSG are you being serious? - if so I think you should do some research into how the HIV virus is contracted, it certainly cannot be passed on by sitting in re-circulated air, touching the same screens etc
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Gay men are high risk for HIV and HepB due to the fact they change partners frequently and are promiscuous generally. It is a known medical fact and proven.
This often means they talk about sex a lot.
This is what straight guys may find offensive in the cockpit, we don't want the bedroom secrets in our face and i would consider this un wanted banter as sexual harrassment.
The guy who is proffessional and maybe mentions friends trips away, restaurants,
hobbies in his general chat ... then who cares if he is gay?
Lesbians are are lot more low key and generally fit in better allround.
This often means they talk about sex a lot.
This is what straight guys may find offensive in the cockpit, we don't want the bedroom secrets in our face and i would consider this un wanted banter as sexual harrassment.
The guy who is proffessional and maybe mentions friends trips away, restaurants,
hobbies in his general chat ... then who cares if he is gay?
Lesbians are are lot more low key and generally fit in better allround.
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Before Scroggs or another moderator wades in (justifiably)... (and this was originally my post) - I'm delighted to hear what everyone has to say about sharing a flight deck with a gay guy. Points have been made on both sides of the argument, which is what a debate is about. Sure I don't agree with some of the comments, but I DO have to draw the line at bringing HIV / AIDS into the thread. That is NOT a gay issue, it's a universal, omnisexual one unrelated to my question.
Every reply to the thread is appreciated, but do not deviate from the original question.
Are you happy to have someone flying with you that has a different sexual orientation?
Every reply to the thread is appreciated, but do not deviate from the original question.
Are you happy to have someone flying with you that has a different sexual orientation?
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I think this can be quite adequately answered by saying that anyone can be a jerk, dislikeable and difficult to work with, whatever their orientation (sexual or otherwise). And, obviously, the opposite holds true. I'm sure that, despite his somewhat old-fashioned prejudices, Recceguy is a thoroughly professional operator who would not let his personal feelings outweigh the need for crew cooperation whilst in the flight-deck. I doubt he'd buy you a beer, however!
Anyway, the point is that sexual orientation should be (and normally is) irrelevant to the safe operation of an aeroplane. Beyond a degree of pub-level humour, it is not generally a subject for discussion on the flight deck, as equally are not membership of the Freemasons, model railway clubs, or birdwatching. I have nothing against these diversions, but they are minority interests and thus unlikely to be fruitful territory for flight deck discussions. Sexuality is not just an inappropriate discussion topic in that environment, it is actually not that interesting and therefore is unlikely to be brought up. More important is the ability to do your job and just get on, at an admittedly fairly trivial level of discussion, with all of the crew.
Scroggs
Anyway, the point is that sexual orientation should be (and normally is) irrelevant to the safe operation of an aeroplane. Beyond a degree of pub-level humour, it is not generally a subject for discussion on the flight deck, as equally are not membership of the Freemasons, model railway clubs, or birdwatching. I have nothing against these diversions, but they are minority interests and thus unlikely to be fruitful territory for flight deck discussions. Sexuality is not just an inappropriate discussion topic in that environment, it is actually not that interesting and therefore is unlikely to be brought up. More important is the ability to do your job and just get on, at an admittedly fairly trivial level of discussion, with all of the crew.
Scroggs
I feel that to an extent this is a "generational" issue.
Talk to the "younger" generation and the issue of being gay (or bisexual) is just not an issue to that age group and, in my opinion, rightly so! The younger generation are far more accepting of a person's sexuality - this may be because of more awareness and education or the advent of equal rights legislation etc.
When I entered the airline industry in 1970 a flight engineer told me over a beer that nobody cared what you were like so long as you could do your job properly - I think he was correct!
An earlier comment assumes that all gay men are promiscous. This is not the case and it is timely to comment that some straight people are promicous also.
Perhaps we also need to be reminded of the fact that (in the UK) it is now illegal for an employer to discriminate in respect of a person's sexual orientation.
Talk to the "younger" generation and the issue of being gay (or bisexual) is just not an issue to that age group and, in my opinion, rightly so! The younger generation are far more accepting of a person's sexuality - this may be because of more awareness and education or the advent of equal rights legislation etc.
When I entered the airline industry in 1970 a flight engineer told me over a beer that nobody cared what you were like so long as you could do your job properly - I think he was correct!
An earlier comment assumes that all gay men are promiscous. This is not the case and it is timely to comment that some straight people are promicous also.
Perhaps we also need to be reminded of the fact that (in the UK) it is now illegal for an employer to discriminate in respect of a person's sexual orientation.
Slightly at a tangent but here goes:
Young people are far more PC than older people. Some young people are very righteous in their level of PC'ness.
I therefore think that differing attitudes to politcal correctness are the most likely area of CRM conflict in the flightdeck.
Sweeping generalisations I know. But I have been suprised a little recently by just how PC some 20 year olds can be. Things, society and school have changed a lot in the decade since I was that age.
A friend of mine experienced an illuminating incident recently:
Whilst eyeing the passengers boarding his aircraft he noted a young male passenger approaching with a very large portable music system under his arm. Clearly it was far too large for cabin luggage and he remarked to his young FO; "he's not carrying that Wogbox in the cabin - jeez look at the size of it!".
Now my friend is in no way a racialist. He simply grew up in the 1980's in a part of Britain where large portable music players were called Wogboxes. An unfortunate term that has gladly passed into disuse for a variety of reasons.
Apparently the First Officer reacted as if the Captain had just donned a pointy white hat and had pulled out a cross and matches from his flightcase. He spent the rest of the day trying to convince the mortified and outraged young FO that he wasn't some kind of monster. Doubt still lingers he suspects.
My point - if there is one - is that both partied need to be aware of PC sensitivity levels and BOTH need to moderate their behaviour. The Captain was at fault though innocently. The FO caused the bulk of the CRM issue though innocently.
Me, I blame the schools.
Cheers
WWW
Young people are far more PC than older people. Some young people are very righteous in their level of PC'ness.
I therefore think that differing attitudes to politcal correctness are the most likely area of CRM conflict in the flightdeck.
Sweeping generalisations I know. But I have been suprised a little recently by just how PC some 20 year olds can be. Things, society and school have changed a lot in the decade since I was that age.
A friend of mine experienced an illuminating incident recently:
Whilst eyeing the passengers boarding his aircraft he noted a young male passenger approaching with a very large portable music system under his arm. Clearly it was far too large for cabin luggage and he remarked to his young FO; "he's not carrying that Wogbox in the cabin - jeez look at the size of it!".
Now my friend is in no way a racialist. He simply grew up in the 1980's in a part of Britain where large portable music players were called Wogboxes. An unfortunate term that has gladly passed into disuse for a variety of reasons.
Apparently the First Officer reacted as if the Captain had just donned a pointy white hat and had pulled out a cross and matches from his flightcase. He spent the rest of the day trying to convince the mortified and outraged young FO that he wasn't some kind of monster. Doubt still lingers he suspects.
My point - if there is one - is that both partied need to be aware of PC sensitivity levels and BOTH need to moderate their behaviour. The Captain was at fault though innocently. The FO caused the bulk of the CRM issue though innocently.
Me, I blame the schools.
Cheers
WWW
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back2skool2
What has been said above by the majority is how it is in reality.
I would make it your duty to operate every flight to the best of your ability and to become a competent and valued crewmember.
I would also give that advice to any other new f/o regardless of sexuality.
In time, when people realise that you do not talk about having a heterosexual relationship, the open minded crews may start to make reference to their acceptance of gays. The not so accepting may not ask you anything. I think these situations all depend on your ability to deal with people, and their differing attitudes to life.
You will hear all sorts of stories on the line regarding what people have, are and will get up to in their personal lives, and I can guarantee that some of them will put your being gay into somewhat of a shadow!
At the end of the day, be respectful and a good operator, and you deserve it back. Those who are not the above are probably known for it anyway, and those who are will become friends or colleagues you enjoy working with.
Some people just do not feel comfortable being subjected to this issue, just like you may not be interested in what your Captain did with her girlfriend. This happens not just with the gay issue, but with many.
Just be competent, friendly and respectable - you won't find any problems and you will find people who will accept you for who you are.
Good Luck, and enjoy!
cheers,
starship
What has been said above by the majority is how it is in reality.
I would make it your duty to operate every flight to the best of your ability and to become a competent and valued crewmember.
I would also give that advice to any other new f/o regardless of sexuality.
In time, when people realise that you do not talk about having a heterosexual relationship, the open minded crews may start to make reference to their acceptance of gays. The not so accepting may not ask you anything. I think these situations all depend on your ability to deal with people, and their differing attitudes to life.
You will hear all sorts of stories on the line regarding what people have, are and will get up to in their personal lives, and I can guarantee that some of them will put your being gay into somewhat of a shadow!
At the end of the day, be respectful and a good operator, and you deserve it back. Those who are not the above are probably known for it anyway, and those who are will become friends or colleagues you enjoy working with.
Some people just do not feel comfortable being subjected to this issue, just like you may not be interested in what your Captain did with her girlfriend. This happens not just with the gay issue, but with many.
Just be competent, friendly and respectable - you won't find any problems and you will find people who will accept you for who you are.
Good Luck, and enjoy!
cheers,
starship
Last edited by starship; 5th Aug 2005 at 20:03.
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Thanks for that Starship... makes sense to me. The flying was always going to be the most important focus for me, and a range of views has certainly been aired.
Now I just need to start finding that elusive job!
Fingers crossed and thanks all.
Now I just need to start finding that elusive job!
Fingers crossed and thanks all.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Interesting story from WWW .
Terminology, attitudes and behaviours change between ages and the key to a healthy flight deck and healthy society for that matter must surely be the ability for everyone to realise that the reason we're such a wonderfully creative species is variety. As such we should learn to respect it even if we disagree.
How boring would life be if we were all the same? All marching in the same direction. All inspiration for creativity and advancement in understanding of this weird and wonderful planet would be quashed if everyone thought in the same way wouldn't it? Normality is only relative to what you've experienced in your life. Hitler would've been served in any American restaurant in the 1930's and 1940's. He was a non-smoking, non-drinking, vegetarian in a smart suit (perfect guy for 2005, eh?!) but contrast him to black US olympic champion Jesse Owens who was refused service in many American eating establishments after his success in Berlin in 1936.... mankinds narrowmindedness creating unnecessary negativity.
But back to WWW - how much longer before 'Ghetto-blaster', for similar reasons, is found to be unacceptable terminology too? The times are a-changing.
VFE.
Terminology, attitudes and behaviours change between ages and the key to a healthy flight deck and healthy society for that matter must surely be the ability for everyone to realise that the reason we're such a wonderfully creative species is variety. As such we should learn to respect it even if we disagree.
How boring would life be if we were all the same? All marching in the same direction. All inspiration for creativity and advancement in understanding of this weird and wonderful planet would be quashed if everyone thought in the same way wouldn't it? Normality is only relative to what you've experienced in your life. Hitler would've been served in any American restaurant in the 1930's and 1940's. He was a non-smoking, non-drinking, vegetarian in a smart suit (perfect guy for 2005, eh?!) but contrast him to black US olympic champion Jesse Owens who was refused service in many American eating establishments after his success in Berlin in 1936.... mankinds narrowmindedness creating unnecessary negativity.
But back to WWW - how much longer before 'Ghetto-blaster', for similar reasons, is found to be unacceptable terminology too? The times are a-changing.
VFE.
I guess that's the point.
Cheers,
WWW
Cheers,
WWW