Signs of recovery?? and MY FRUSTRATIONS!!!

[Kerropi]

Hi,

Just wondering if there are any signs of recovery in the pilot hiring industry (ab initio). Having received my 150th rejection letter today I am very frustrated and down.

I check Pprune and PPjn and other pilot websites every day (every half an hour to be exact .... I know I am pathetic ) I still hope that I could read something positive.

I have given my resume / cover letter to everyone I know to check it out .. so I think my resume /cover letter is ok... but still no invitation or whatever....

I know I am not the only one .. receiving tons of rejection letters every week ...


Just want to share al my frustration here on Pprune ...

K.MY

[jamestkirk]

letters

Welcome to my world.

[spaceman1000]

I have given up to look for a job as a pilot, it is pointless.
I have sent probably 500CV, 500 Email, call manager, friends:
THERE IS NO ONE JOB !!!same like in 1992

I have seen some guys who told me they will go to the USA to become a commercial pilot.They are unwawe of the market situation, they think with 200h and a CPL, they will fly for an airline or a coporate.

[Cutoff]

I get fed up reading these kind of posts, there is nothing written to say that once someone has the minimums they are entitled to a job, this goes for any industry.

I have just finished my FATPL, I have a few more hrs than the min, not tonnes though, but I am going to make sure that my CV constantly changes, I am going to keep adding worthwhile hrs, and in the meantime do as good a job as poss in my existing job, you never know this might be my job for a few more years yet. However, if nothing happens at least I tried, but try I am going to. I have already got some contacts, I have friends who fly who are willing to share time with me, this is what you need to do, not languish in depression.... get out there and make more and more contacts, CVs posted in unsolicited go in the Bin, end of story.

[10002level]

When I started my training in the late 1980s there were jobs for everyone with airlines contacting flying schools for details of anyone coming up to 700 hours. However, things did not last and by the time I managed to get my BCPL issued, the jobs had gone and I couldn't even get an instructor position in order to build my hours up.

However, eventually I managed to get my foot through the door at a local school and slowly added to my experience until I had the magical 700 hours for the issue of a CPL and I went on to complete my IR. I was now in the position of being employable, but with no relevant experience and in a market where there were many people with more experience chasing up the few openings that became available. I applied to everyone both at home and overseas, but despite to numerous letters that I had "putting me on file", for those that could be bothered to reply, I never gave up.

Eventually, I got my first proper job in 1997, three years after gaining my CPL I/R (frozen ATPL) on a corporate turboprop in the RHS. For various reasons I hated the job (believe me, CRM is really really important and when someone insults and swears at you at every given opportunity, your life is hell). However, I stuck at it, watched my hours build up and 5 months later I got a position with a regional airline.

The point I am trying to put across is that you should never give up. I have seen lots of people enter into training, but not complete their ambition. I remember having a BCPL course booked to start on the Monday morning and on the preceding Thursday my bank turned me down for a £3,000 loan. But I found the money on the Friday. There is always a way. Never give up, and write to everyone. When you have little experience, unless you know someone in a position to help you, it comes down to luck. One day your cv will land on someone's desk and you will strike lucky. Phone everyone, and if one day the person says that the company does not accept phone calls about recruiting pilots, call the next and perhaps you will get someone else answering the phone who put you through. Write again to the airlines who you wrote to last month. Your enthusiasm will eventually make its mark. The job will not find you, but you will find the job.

[flyingoli]

Ok guys,

You need to stay positive, after 5 years waiting for the big opening, I finally made it, I'm in an airline on the 737.
Keep doing something, build hours, make connections, look abroad, be imaginative.
If you can afford it, do a type rating, don't listen to those negative guys, who tell that's not good to do a type rating because it's braking the market(There is no market for low hours pilots). Come on we are not in a communist system.
The point is simple there is far too much ab-initio, a lot of them will never reach the golden cockpit. So is up to you to stay at 250-300 Hrs( wýth simulator ) and to still have negative answer or to move your a**: take an ops job, do an instructor rating, do a TR, take a steward job, go to companies and make yourself unforgetable, be a towing gliders pilot a droping pýlot. In brief do what ever you want to get more experiences ýn the avýation world But don't stay please in front of your computer sending bulk and useless e-mail to all the compagnies in Europe and complaining. In the avýatýon world there is already so negative things, than there is no need to be negative yourself.

[AIRWAY]

Looking at current recruitment trends, it seems that the market is moving, maybe slowly but it is moving ...

[Cap Loko]

As a bloke in No Man's Land (defined in another thread) find it frustrating at times not to find a suitable job. But to give up is out of the question.

Kerropi, your time will come too.

cheers

[student-mork]

Hear Hear Capt Loko!

Kerropi, Im in the same boat as you but Ive decided that whilst the market is "recovering" Im going to do my damndest to work off my flight training and save for an FIs course. That way, Im doing something constructive with my time and staying on track.
Im in a good mood now, but I know how you feel ...its all about attitude and persistance.

PS... Jamestkirk - stop shinfing about the market ... youre a damned sight more on track than most people are! Take care mate

[Kerropi]

Some words of advice (hopefully) to wannabes at all levels …..

1). Jobs versus experience.

Empirically there are, at present, more pilots (please select which of the following categories you fall in to) with:

The Basic fATPL (it being the very least one needs to have prior to being able to apply for employment).

Low hours per se and/or a modest number of hours on a type that is not pertinent to airline operations.

A jet type-rating but little or no experience on type.
than there are jobs.

Aviation is somewhat of a cyclic business (with peaks & troughs typically every seven years) though quite where we are now is very much subject to crystal ball gazing and tealeaf reading.


>>> I am in Category 1 ... The Basic fATPL


2). Making applications.

Applying for employment as a pilot does not entitle one to a reply, and certainly not if you application was unsolicited, i.e. the airline has not advertised for applications, you just thought you’d send one in anyway on the off chance.

Replying to the hundreds, and/or thousands, of applications takes time and requires that somebody is assigned to the task and, ergo, that costs money; and airlines hate (neigh, loathe) spending money, unless they absolutely have to.

Do not feel diss’d just because you don’t get a reply to your CV from an airline that is not recruiting.


>>> Ow I do get replies from almost every airline I write. As I have said before I have sent 150 letters/applications .. I have received more than 120 reaction via snail mail and email so I do not feel dissed ...



3). Who you know.

Having a friend who works within an airline is perhaps the best way to move your CV to the top of the pile.

That’s not to say that not knowing anybody makes it impossible – it just makes it harder.

Remember also that this is perhaps the biggest and hardest ‘old boys (&girls) club’ that it’s possible to join – indeed it’s probably easier to join the Masons/Lodge.

>>> I have several friends working for small companies in Germany / Netherlands / Belgium. They have taken my resume to their chief pilot and still I do not hear anything. All the small companies seems to have a hiring stop or not hiring at the moment due to excess of flight crew .. some companies have a list of 20 reserve pilots...

4). Keeping current.

Keeping current is important, but however that does not mean hiring a C150 from your local flying club and doing a few half-hearted aerobatics and/or a trip down the coast for an hour or so.

>>> I do that too Once in a month hire a Cessna 152 making a xcountry

Needless to say (but I will) if you are not regularly practicing the privileges of your IR your instrument flying skills will soon get rusty and, when one does finally get a break, you can be pretty sure that an airline assessment will involve a sim check.

>>> I do it two or three times a year in a simulator... I have not done a simulator assesment for an airline before......


To stand any chance in a simulator assessment you’d be well advised to have spent time keeping your instrument scan up-to-speed as well as continuing to develop your skills (both piloting & CRM/multi-crew).

>>> Let's hope so when I do get an interview


So, rather than spend a couple of hundred £$€’s hiring the proverbial spam-can, why not get together with your mates and hire a proper/real jet simulator (there are, I’m sure, plenty of PPRuNer pro-pilots who would be willing to help drive the sim panel for you).

Indeed, many moons ago, ‘Raw Data’ used to do just this (using the Trident sim up at Biggin Hill) wherein many of the people he helped are now gainfully employed & seasoned jet airline pilots.


5). Whether or not to buy a type rating?

Just remember, and say after me..... ”THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES WITH ANY OF IT!”

>>> I AM DETERMINNED NOT TO DO A TYPE RATING .. BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO WASTE ANYMORE MONEY..... but to tell you the truth .... i am beginning to consider this option ... If a company can GUARANTEE me a job afterwards I might consider it.....


6). CV’s.

When you write a CV remember that we already know the following about you:
You were born

>>> CHECK

You have a name

>>> CHECK

You probably live somewhere

>>> CHECK

Your piloting experience and ratings fit anywhere between having the a fresh off the press fATPL and/or low hours and/or a modest number of hours on a type that is not pertinent to airline operations, and/or a jet type-rating but little or no experience on type.

>>> I have only basic FATPL...


You’ll tell us that you’d make a super employee and will sell your soul to the devil to work for XYZ airline (you’ve got to sell your soul as that’s all you’ve got left after paying for all your training)

>>> CHECK .... I tell them that I even will suck their D**K to be hired (just joking) ..... I think I have motivated my self in the cover letter pretty well.....


etc
Now, and I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news if you don’t already know this, there are hundreds of folk out there who fit a similar description to the above, and who are chasing the same job as yourself.


>>> YES YES I know... I know....


So, you need something that will levitate your CV to the top of the pile (not withstanding any mates who already work within your targeted airline) – certainly so when you think that your present flying background and/or your ratings are not going to be of all that much interest to a bloke reading it (somebody who is probably a TRI/TRE/RETRE/etc with several thousand hours in his logbook).

You have to ask yourself “If I can’t differentiate my flying experience” (because that is what everybody else I’m competing with has too) “then what is it that I can do to promote myself?”…. if you can crack that then you’ve got it cracked!

Lastly on CV's, if you're using a mail-merge program then for gawds sake make sure that the Chief Pilots name is correct w.r.t. the airline you're applying to (go figure!), and you'd also be advised to keep your CV short (1 page is usually enough)!

>>> CHECK


7). At the end of the day.

There’s a lot of truth when people say that you should hang-on and don’t give up – wherein for many it was dogged termination, coupled with perseverance and staying power that saved their day.

>>> I WILL NOT GIVE UP

However, on the flip-side, the harsh reality is that some people will never attain their ambition of becoming an airline pilot.

>>> I am thinking more and more that I faal in this category....

They will have spent their money (more than likely a lot of it too), they will have done the hard work and all the courses, they will have passed all the exams – they’re probably very creditable pilots – but that lucky break just does not come their way.

>>> I also fall in this category....


Nb. This is something that the training industry – from the bottom and upwards – are loathe to broadcast as, I’m sure you’ll understand, it’s bad for business. But it is, nonetheless, true.

>>> I BELIEVE YOU

So, might I invite one and all to remember some of the above points when you’re being tempted to purchase those rose-tinted glasses, you know the ones, they’re inscribed ‘You too can be an airline pilot… just sign here!’


Finally, and all together now.....: ”THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES WITH ANY OF IT!”

>>> OK....

[Cap Loko]

It seems there's a shift in the industry. Not too long ago companies where asking for a typerating and 500 hours on type. Now, it seems that some companies are lowering their demands concerning the hour-on-type requirement.
There is a shortage of captains already on many types of aircraft. Companies cannot endlessly draw pilots from a typerated-and-experienced holding pool.
Altough I think there will allways be enough lowtimers available, I also do think that their chances will increase as a result of the above mentioned.

[jamestkirk]

HELLO EVERYONE

I am in a very similar situation to most of you.

! am 34 and people are calling me "old -timer". Generally, i just leave them...lying there.

And my IR has lapsed. Brilliant.

Although, I am instructing at the moment. Even though the pay is beyond the realms of economic viability, it's good fun.

No-one can say to you 'don't get down about it', but you will.

I can only say to try and stay in the aviation loop in some capacity. It may not help in the short ter, but you never know who you might meet etc. (well, i am hoping anyway)

This isstuff you all know, but i would recommend an FI rating. All the instructors at the school i work at have found jobs.eventually.

And there is nothing wrong with a moan now and agian. It's good for the soul.

STUDENT MORK : remember i have a picture of you in tight combat pants and sunglasses. This can be posted on this website if i feel that the world needs to see (and understand) it's moral implications

[moku]

I am sure you have heard this many times, but be patient!

This time last year I was in the same boat but with a few more hours.
I am now flying a nice 4 engine jet on some good routes and getting a good paycheck! It will come.
So far in the past three weeks I have had 4 interview offers from companies I sent my CV to late last year! So sometimes they do keep your CV on file.
Don't give up! Keep at!

Make an effort to actually call and speak to a person to check if the CV has been received. i.e show an interest beyond just sending off a CV.

For those that will ask.

fATPL and 35!

M

[Canada Goose]

Just as a matter of interest Moku ……… if you don't mind my asking … did you have to pay for your type rating on the nice 4 engine jet ??

Thanks. CG

[moku]

No I did not. I am firmly against paying for type ratings and would never prostitute myself out like that.

M

[Canada Goose]

Goodman - glad to hear it !!

Not that I was going to have a pop at you if you had !!

[stellair]

It took me three years from getting my CPL to secure an airline position at the beginning of this year. I followed a modular route due to the nightmare costs of training but during that time I was always working at airfields either sweeping hangers, making the tea or doing ops work. All of my friends that have followed the same route took no longer than 4 years to secure a position with an airline/corporate outfit, some of us instructed, I flew for a photography company and others booted jumpers out the back of 182s on sunny summers afternoons. The simple rule is we all believed we'd make it, stayed focused and remained positive, while getting pissed during crap weather at the bar.
Unless you have an inside contact it is no use at all just getting your licence and then returning to your old job expecting an operator to call you offering an interview having blanket covered the market with the same CV once a month, chances are (unless you have the O word on your CV....I'm bitter ) it's not going to happen. There has never been a promise of a job upon obtaining a CPL face it, it's for you to go out and find it by whatever means, that's what it takes and it does work, we all knew what we were letting ourselves in for before we started I hope...hint hint spaceman or whatever your name is. Jobs are out there you just have to find them or put yourself in a position to be eligible with hours or ratings etc, anyone that disagrees with this is not in the same industry and me!
Sometimes you have to go that extra mile even though it falls in the lap of others but that's life. My advice is all well and good for a 25 year old with only myself to consider and I understand that some of the older wanabes on here may have family and therefore can't offer themselves to low paid work. If that's the case then try some part time work in aviation or chances are you'll have access to a bit more cash than the young lads so go and buy a type rating. This will make you 99% more attractive to most operators, in fact you can quite often get an interview before the course has even finished if you market yourself correctly and although people quite rightly heave at the thought of forking out another wad of cash for the rating this is the way the industry's going and unless something very drastic happens I think it's here to stay! When averaged out the long term finnacial benefits of this can often negate the original expenditure as you'll be 3 maybe 4 years ahead of everyone else in career terms.
For those of you who will offer a tyrade of abuse directed at me for suggesting this then carry on but your fellow recently qualified chaps are jumping right over your heads to your detriment, that's a fact. Choices are you either :
a) hope to get lucky with your 200hrs.
b) do your time building hours and making contacts as I did.
c) put your hands in your pockets and get a TR.

All this is true in my experience, there is no easy route through this. Hope it helps one of you out, good luck with it all, stay positive and believe! .................Tailwinds.............

[Kerropi]

Hi All!!!

Thank you all for your replies and encouragement!!!

First of all I was and I am still against paying for a SSTR. But I also do understand why people would wanna do that ... I also believe that believing that when nobody does a type rating companies like Ryanair will change their recruitment policy... that's an utopia....

I usually read here on this forum and in other forums that the job market is picking up and that more and more vacancies are becoming available at the moment furthermore there seems to be a lowering in the hour recuirement. To be honest I DON'T NOTICE A THING!!!!!! (Sorry just venting my frustrations )

Because of my limited successes I am beginning to consider to do a type rating or a FI rating (Regarding the TR ... CAN SOMEBODY PLS STOP ME ????)

The FI route is also an option but the total of FI vacancies here in Europe are also very limited (can somebody proof me wrong??)

One more thing !!!
Why is it so hard to search for contact adresses of airlines here on Pprune?? I know there is PPJN but there must be more information than that?? Why does nobody who is already working for an airline company (SMALL / BIG / CHARTER .... ) leave an adress /email of their chiefpilot / director of flightoperations here on Pprune???

Anyway just venting out my frustrations again

K.

[Cap Loko]

In addition to PPJN, www.pilotcareercenter.com provides some valuable information like names, adresses etc.

[stellair]

Kerropi........... don't forget my friend it will cost roughly £5000 for an FIC which is a great thing to have and a good job to experiance but for only (he says!) an extra 2 to 5000 pound you could have a small to medium turboprop TR on your licence such as a shorts 360, metro or F406 etc. These are not big jets but not many people get jobs on these with minimum hours and to be honest the turboprop route will make you a far sharper, well rounded pilot in the long run with a good grounding to your career (you'll walk a jet sim) not to mention damn good hands on fun before you get bored pushin buttons for big bucks on a jet .
These hours will be more benefical in career terms than SEP and will make you very much more attractive to bigger operators. Despite you being against paying for your own TR (everyone is) if you do consider this route before commecing the course select and speak to a handfull of operators you'd like to work for and explain your position to them, tell them what your plans are and maybe you could reach a deal and have some security in the fact they may offer you work upon completion.
As for finding out about operators the internet is ok for getting basic information such as company name and location but beyond that you need to turn the computer off, give them a call for as much info as posible such as types, names, routes and then drive down to their offices with a CV and speak to them face to face as I mentioned above. This isn't easy, I know, but with some carefull research it is the best way to forge a fruitfull outcome especially if you target a select few that fly "affordable SSTR types", the other advantage of course is these airlines often have a higher staff turnover. If you don't call them and pay them a visit someone else will and they'll get the jobs! (extra mile)
Just a thought but if you plan it carefully it may not be as bad as you think. I'm off to Eastern europe in my turborop now Good luck with it all kerropi..........tailwinds