Getting a job without having a contact within an airline
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Getting a job without having a contact within an airline
I have been applying day in day out since last Januari, for positions with jet-operators and regional non-jet operators, without getting one positive response. Now I know there are a bunch of people who did get the job, having only about 200 hours. I myself have about 600 TT, first time passes on everything, I'm 23 years old and have no commitments whatsoever. Also I speak Dutch, English, German and French. Only thing is I do not know anybody working for an airline except for someone at Ryanair.
Also I know people with more experience than me, being in the same situation. Seems like it's better to have 200 hours and a contact, than having 3000 hours and no contact, what's going on? It's more important to be a semi-friend of somebody than being a let's call it gifted aviator?
P.S. I'm not the kind of guy to start complaining about everything if I don't like it, I've probably been the most positive minded guy at the schools I went to, so please just give some comments on the subject, not on me
Also I know people with more experience than me, being in the same situation. Seems like it's better to have 200 hours and a contact, than having 3000 hours and no contact, what's going on? It's more important to be a semi-friend of somebody than being a let's call it gifted aviator?
P.S. I'm not the kind of guy to start complaining about everything if I don't like it, I've probably been the most positive minded guy at the schools I went to, so please just give some comments on the subject, not on me
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addy
I'm in the same spot.
I have almost twice your experience, done the integrated route, done the instructing route, done the air taxi pilot route, done all sorts of extra, extra aviation things to get noticed.
I know loads of people in aviation, however all are FOs.
But it is like you say. No contact - No job, unless you are lucky and your CV lands side up on the CP/HR persons desk.
How can people like us and many other wannabes make contacts?
Please if anyone here on Pprune is in the power of hiring give us some sort of hope/tips/advice so that we can continue the fight.
Because I won’t give up until I'm flying.
Maybe if there was a sort of mentorship program, a captain or someone high up the food chain takes on a junior pilot and introduces him/her to the aviation world and maybe help out with a job or just some good advice. This sort of thing is common in many other professions so why not aviation.
Anyone up for that?
/AK
ps. please forgive my English grammar. English is not my first language.
I'm in the same spot.
I have almost twice your experience, done the integrated route, done the instructing route, done the air taxi pilot route, done all sorts of extra, extra aviation things to get noticed.
I know loads of people in aviation, however all are FOs.
But it is like you say. No contact - No job, unless you are lucky and your CV lands side up on the CP/HR persons desk.
How can people like us and many other wannabes make contacts?
Please if anyone here on Pprune is in the power of hiring give us some sort of hope/tips/advice so that we can continue the fight.
Because I won’t give up until I'm flying.
Maybe if there was a sort of mentorship program, a captain or someone high up the food chain takes on a junior pilot and introduces him/her to the aviation world and maybe help out with a job or just some good advice. This sort of thing is common in many other professions so why not aviation.
Anyone up for that?
/AK
ps. please forgive my English grammar. English is not my first language.
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Try dropping a line to Claire at [email protected] they're advertising courses in the back of flight this week, maybe they could be of use to you, doesn't do any harm to enquire. Their information pack seemed to be very self explanatory. Good luck, and never give up.
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addy,
i am like you, in the same s...t
keep in mind,aviation is run by incompetent people , and by a government who have failed. result: many airlines were forced to file bankroute.french,swiss, belgium gov by exemple. the trilogy of loosers
years ago, i failed some exam to be sponsored. this airline have filed bankroute and took the money of good people who believed in this company.now I have an ATP and more 2000h in my loogbook.I have been hired 2weeks after graduation but lost my job.
now, these same people, who work for other companies, send you rejection letters then ,you will learn the same day, they are in jail , like this company in italy, volare.
this business is all s...t.and the governemnt is highly corrupted.airlines blackmail them and vice versa.it is all money and politic, and nothing else.so take it easy and keep going.
i am like you, in the same s...t
keep in mind,aviation is run by incompetent people , and by a government who have failed. result: many airlines were forced to file bankroute.french,swiss, belgium gov by exemple. the trilogy of loosers
years ago, i failed some exam to be sponsored. this airline have filed bankroute and took the money of good people who believed in this company.now I have an ATP and more 2000h in my loogbook.I have been hired 2weeks after graduation but lost my job.
now, these same people, who work for other companies, send you rejection letters then ,you will learn the same day, they are in jail , like this company in italy, volare.
this business is all s...t.and the governemnt is highly corrupted.airlines blackmail them and vice versa.it is all money and politic, and nothing else.so take it easy and keep going.
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Wake up and smell the coffee. Stop feeling sorry for yourselves and go out and make your own luck. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate how difficult it is, but you have worked hard to get your licences, don't get negative and blame the whole world now. Again, I am sympathetic, but the wrong attitude at this stage will only work against you.
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Ignore spaceman1000's incoherent rant; he does that from time to time. Perhaps one day he'll do us all a favour and try and take the airlines or his government to court, and then we might get to see some evidence for his ridiculous claims. And pigs might fly.
Moving on...
Airlines do not hire through contacts. However, personal recommendations can bring a good candidate to the recruiters' attention earlier than might otherwise have happened. I am quite often asked by friends in the business or RAF to 'highlight' their CV, even though such a thing isn't really possible. All I can do is ring up and say 'x' is a good bloke and worth a look. They might then drag that guy's CV out of the pile, if there is a need that day to get new people in for interview, and if his qualifications meet our standards, he might get a look-in. On the same day, several blokes who haven't been recommended by anyone will also be called for interview - as is the case for the vast majority of our recruits.
Don't get me wrong, it can never hurt to know someone on the inside, but the advantage is far less than you would like to think.
Scroggs
Moving on...
Airlines do not hire through contacts. However, personal recommendations can bring a good candidate to the recruiters' attention earlier than might otherwise have happened. I am quite often asked by friends in the business or RAF to 'highlight' their CV, even though such a thing isn't really possible. All I can do is ring up and say 'x' is a good bloke and worth a look. They might then drag that guy's CV out of the pile, if there is a need that day to get new people in for interview, and if his qualifications meet our standards, he might get a look-in. On the same day, several blokes who haven't been recommended by anyone will also be called for interview - as is the case for the vast majority of our recruits.
Don't get me wrong, it can never hurt to know someone on the inside, but the advantage is far less than you would like to think.
Scroggs
'Tis true. Various aspects of current employment and discrimination and human rights law make it fraught indeed for any HR dept to utilise employee recommendations.
It can be done. But it needs to be an open process available to all. It needs to achieve nothing more than being in effect a voluntry offer to act as a personal reference. It needs to be documented and audited for compliance.
For example. LargeAirways wants to recruit some pilots. They place an ad in The Telegraph and get a good response and select a dozen. 6 months later up pops a solicitor representing someone who comes from a social, ethnic or other group (soon to be age as well) who would not be likely to read The Telegraph. They can claim that LargeAirways was being indirectly discriminatory against them because they never advertisied the job opportunity in a way in which they might reasonably have seen it.
With a specialist job such as pilot you can generally get around this by advertising in the specialist press. Which is why most major recruitment campaigns do put something in the back of Flight International. Even small operators do even when they only want 1 pilot and he's already the Bosses son and working in the Ops dept - but thats another story.
Nevertheless. Knowing someone on the inside of the airline CAN be useful. But its nowhere near as useful as it used to be in the good old days when silver flecked Captain Longstanding would have a word with the Personnel Lady about this wonderful young chap who'd fit right in.
Those days have gone. Some say rightly, some say wrongly. Nepotism did used to be a characteristic of certain airlines to a degree which was very frustrating if you are totally on the outside.
Cheers
WWW
It can be done. But it needs to be an open process available to all. It needs to achieve nothing more than being in effect a voluntry offer to act as a personal reference. It needs to be documented and audited for compliance.
For example. LargeAirways wants to recruit some pilots. They place an ad in The Telegraph and get a good response and select a dozen. 6 months later up pops a solicitor representing someone who comes from a social, ethnic or other group (soon to be age as well) who would not be likely to read The Telegraph. They can claim that LargeAirways was being indirectly discriminatory against them because they never advertisied the job opportunity in a way in which they might reasonably have seen it.
With a specialist job such as pilot you can generally get around this by advertising in the specialist press. Which is why most major recruitment campaigns do put something in the back of Flight International. Even small operators do even when they only want 1 pilot and he's already the Bosses son and working in the Ops dept - but thats another story.
Nevertheless. Knowing someone on the inside of the airline CAN be useful. But its nowhere near as useful as it used to be in the good old days when silver flecked Captain Longstanding would have a word with the Personnel Lady about this wonderful young chap who'd fit right in.
Those days have gone. Some say rightly, some say wrongly. Nepotism did used to be a characteristic of certain airlines to a degree which was very frustrating if you are totally on the outside.
Cheers
WWW
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Hi
As most people have said it is down to nothing more than shear grit and determination on the part of ourselfs.
We all need to know that every dog has his day.
Me personally I passed the Ryanair sim assesment, but due to OM probs I cant get the position till I have more hours on type.
Contacts can only show us the door, we have to open it.
Good luck to everyone keep your chins up that contract will turn up soon.
259
As most people have said it is down to nothing more than shear grit and determination on the part of ourselfs.
We all need to know that every dog has his day.
Me personally I passed the Ryanair sim assesment, but due to OM probs I cant get the position till I have more hours on type.
Contacts can only show us the door, we have to open it.
Good luck to everyone keep your chins up that contract will turn up soon.
259
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Do you find that people are sometimes cautious of who they recommend just in case it goes pear shape and reflects bad on themselves.
Network network network, I could tell you how I ended up being bought coffee by a base captain but now is not the time.
Network network network, I could tell you how I ended up being bought coffee by a base captain but now is not the time.
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Scroggs and WWW, Thank you for your comments.
It might be true that having a contact is not as valuable as it once used to be.
However, 3 friends of mine that all where in the same school and did more or less the same things as I, where hired because of the fact that they had a contact in the airline. All of them got recommended either by a base Captain, Captain or HR person. After hearing about their success I immediately applied to these airlines thinking that if mates of mine with similar or even less experience are getting in, then I might get a look into. However as soon as I called HR departments I heard a different tale than what was described to me by my friends. HR started asking about type ratings and time on type, and by the way “have you flown the space shuttle in the last 6 months?”
Please don’t think I’m one of those people that complain and are negative. I could not have been because I have been at this for the past 5 years and have held several aviation jobs. Not so glamorous ones but I have instructed and done air taxi work. These positions have come only by my sheer determination.
I find getting a job in a “good” company flying something nice and making enough to pay the bills is only reserved for the ones that have a contact. Determination or experience will not make any difference if not having someone on the inside to pull you in.
It might be true that having a contact is not as valuable as it once used to be.
However, 3 friends of mine that all where in the same school and did more or less the same things as I, where hired because of the fact that they had a contact in the airline. All of them got recommended either by a base Captain, Captain or HR person. After hearing about their success I immediately applied to these airlines thinking that if mates of mine with similar or even less experience are getting in, then I might get a look into. However as soon as I called HR departments I heard a different tale than what was described to me by my friends. HR started asking about type ratings and time on type, and by the way “have you flown the space shuttle in the last 6 months?”
Please don’t think I’m one of those people that complain and are negative. I could not have been because I have been at this for the past 5 years and have held several aviation jobs. Not so glamorous ones but I have instructed and done air taxi work. These positions have come only by my sheer determination.
I find getting a job in a “good” company flying something nice and making enough to pay the bills is only reserved for the ones that have a contact. Determination or experience will not make any difference if not having someone on the inside to pull you in.
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In large airlines personal contacts may not be what they used to be, but in the smaller operators personal recommendations are the way it works.
Every job I've ever had (more than one or two!) has come from some form of personal contact, ranging from a family member being a director of a company, to a mate flying with a fleet manager and him then putting him in a headlock until he gave me a job!
Nepotism is rife in the lower end of the industry, simply because it makes things cheaper and easier.
Is it right? Not really, but it is the way of the world. So get networking and dust off your contacts book. This is such a small industry really, that there is bound to be someone who can help you cultivate some links eventually.
Every job I've ever had (more than one or two!) has come from some form of personal contact, ranging from a family member being a director of a company, to a mate flying with a fleet manager and him then putting him in a headlock until he gave me a job!
Nepotism is rife in the lower end of the industry, simply because it makes things cheaper and easier.
Is it right? Not really, but it is the way of the world. So get networking and dust off your contacts book. This is such a small industry really, that there is bound to be someone who can help you cultivate some links eventually.
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I can't comment on what happens in small airlines as I've never been in one, but I did used to run a small business and, as you quite rightly suggest, in that environment a recommended person saves a sh*tload of advertising, interviewing and hassle - much of which a small business can't afford, and hasn't got time for. The legalities are, perhaps, a nicety, but it's very unlikely anyone will ever take a detailed interest in the exact employment procedures of an operation that only hires one new pilot every third century, so they do what they want.
However, from your posts, the vast majority of you want to work for a shiny jet airline as soon as you possibly can. These are big businesses, and they have to dot the 'i's and cross the 't's in everything they do. As WWW says, personal recommendations must not carry a disproportionate amount of weight, and can never override the minimum standards and qualifications required by the airline.
I repeat what I said before: the majority of jet airline pilot jobs are acquired with no inside contact or recommendation. Luck is by far and away the most important qualification you need.
Scroggs
However, from your posts, the vast majority of you want to work for a shiny jet airline as soon as you possibly can. These are big businesses, and they have to dot the 'i's and cross the 't's in everything they do. As WWW says, personal recommendations must not carry a disproportionate amount of weight, and can never override the minimum standards and qualifications required by the airline.
I repeat what I said before: the majority of jet airline pilot jobs are acquired with no inside contact or recommendation. Luck is by far and away the most important qualification you need.
Scroggs
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Addy,
I have read some good and some bad here.
It is not true that a contact inside an ailine is mandatory, I landed my first job with no contact and now having plenty of contact I have difficulties in getting hired!
My advice: it is not on focusing on what you do not have that you will succeed, be assertive and imaginative, go and open the doors, there is plenty of ways.
Believe on yourself and keep your faith. You will make it!
"If you want, you can do it"
I have read some good and some bad here.
It is not true that a contact inside an ailine is mandatory, I landed my first job with no contact and now having plenty of contact I have difficulties in getting hired!
My advice: it is not on focusing on what you do not have that you will succeed, be assertive and imaginative, go and open the doors, there is plenty of ways.
Believe on yourself and keep your faith. You will make it!
"If you want, you can do it"
Last edited by airmen; 10th May 2005 at 23:23.
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Airlines do not hire through contacts.
Anyone remember the 'Virgin Golfer' thread of a few years ago? The quote, overheard on the 18th tee as I recall, was "Don't worry about the interview Ivor, It will be nice to have you on board!"
I have had several jobs. Sometimes I have pitched up cold and simply jumped through all the hoops. Once a personal recommendation got me straight in. Another time I was directly 'poached' for my type rating.
The whole business is a fickle minefield. My only advice is never upset anyone and just keep on trying. Interview training is never wasted so consider that option too.
Best of luck.
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The right contact will definatly help out.
However remember that the jobs that you are applying for are the cream of the crop especially for someone with such low hours....there is little difference between a 200 hour fresh out of training guy and a 600 hour guy with no experience within the industry. Infact the 200hour guy is often more current and hasnt developed any bad habits and is easier to train.
Sorry but that is the hard reality of it. There are hundreds and hundreds for low hour pilots applying for these jobs...hardly surprising that it takes so long realy. Do keep at it make contacts if you can. It can only help and a job will come. The industry is finding it harder and harder to find experienced rated pilots and that has a way of filtering down the line.
However remember that the jobs that you are applying for are the cream of the crop especially for someone with such low hours....there is little difference between a 200 hour fresh out of training guy and a 600 hour guy with no experience within the industry. Infact the 200hour guy is often more current and hasnt developed any bad habits and is easier to train.
Sorry but that is the hard reality of it. There are hundreds and hundreds for low hour pilots applying for these jobs...hardly surprising that it takes so long realy. Do keep at it make contacts if you can. It can only help and a job will come. The industry is finding it harder and harder to find experienced rated pilots and that has a way of filtering down the line.
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I know a guy who got invited to a selection for a small airline only thanx to contacts. At that time they were recruiting very very slowly, and out of the hundreds of CVs they had, only a contact or the right TR could get you to the sim ride. He actually failed the selection, but got accepted in an other airline 3 months later with no contacts. Contacts are probably very important, simply because airlines can t just invite every one to a selection, and basically most of us ab-initios have exactly the same CV (i.e Mr blabla, frozen CPL-IR MCC ). So the only thing that can get the recruiters attention on your CV, is a recommendation from someone. BUT, recruiters are hopefully not stupid, we all know that most of the accidents in civil aviation are due to human errors, and who ever you are, it is in the interest of an airline to make sure you ll be a safe pilot, and won t turn right when the ATC asks you to turn left. Contacts are useful, especially when the airline industry is like right now (too many pilots on the market), but hopefully the most important is who you are.
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Addy you say the only company you have a contact with is Ryanair - Do you not want to work for them?
I myself have recently been offered a place on the their Type Rating course with CAE. I made direct contact with the guy in HR who seems to have the final say on whether you get called for a SIM check and interview.
Like you guys I had been knocked back and knocked back by loads of other carrriers and I would add that it was breath of fresh air to hear someone positive on the other end of the phone.
The guy I spoke to was Allan Sweeny. He said to me 'whats your profile, whats your availability...ok come along for a SIM'...It was so different to all the other snotty Aviation HR people I have encountered.
I went to East Midlands , passed the SIM ride and the HR interview and now I start a course in two weeks...brilliant!!!
Sweenys number is 79108 23360 and he doesn't seem to mind us low houred guys calling him.
I myself have recently been offered a place on the their Type Rating course with CAE. I made direct contact with the guy in HR who seems to have the final say on whether you get called for a SIM check and interview.
Like you guys I had been knocked back and knocked back by loads of other carrriers and I would add that it was breath of fresh air to hear someone positive on the other end of the phone.
The guy I spoke to was Allan Sweeny. He said to me 'whats your profile, whats your availability...ok come along for a SIM'...It was so different to all the other snotty Aviation HR people I have encountered.
I went to East Midlands , passed the SIM ride and the HR interview and now I start a course in two weeks...brilliant!!!
Sweenys number is 79108 23360 and he doesn't seem to mind us low houred guys calling him.
