Ryanair Pay for New Joiners...
Join Date: Jun 2001
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haughtney1 - that's great news I’m sure, wherein anything which brings down the cost of training ( so long as standards are maintained ) must be a good thing !
Indeed I myself started out within the USA FAA system ( all self-funded, I hasten to add ) obtaining first my PPL, and then my SE CPL/IR, and then ME CPL/IR, and then ATP - so I know exactly what you are talking about – and wherein I also hold CAA & JAA jet transport type-rating accreditations at ATPL level too.
That said, you did not mention what amount of training, and / or the breakdown thereof off, is included in that price – so please do elaborate; I'm sure that we would all be interested to hear your side-by-side / direct comparison of like-for-like training ( certainly so if it arrives at a seemless transition into a JAR jet type-rating ).
That said, whilst I’m sure that one can obtain cheaper flight training within the USA, I’m still intrigued to understand how and why ‘line-training’ of SOPs ( specifically ) in Europe might cost close on what it likewise takes to type-rate somebody on a jet within the European system ( hence my question to ‘Captain Chuckles’ ).
Indeed I myself started out within the USA FAA system ( all self-funded, I hasten to add ) obtaining first my PPL, and then my SE CPL/IR, and then ME CPL/IR, and then ATP - so I know exactly what you are talking about – and wherein I also hold CAA & JAA jet transport type-rating accreditations at ATPL level too.
That said, you did not mention what amount of training, and / or the breakdown thereof off, is included in that price – so please do elaborate; I'm sure that we would all be interested to hear your side-by-side / direct comparison of like-for-like training ( certainly so if it arrives at a seemless transition into a JAR jet type-rating ).
That said, whilst I’m sure that one can obtain cheaper flight training within the USA, I’m still intrigued to understand how and why ‘line-training’ of SOPs ( specifically ) in Europe might cost close on what it likewise takes to type-rate somebody on a jet within the European system ( hence my question to ‘Captain Chuckles’ ).
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Puritan......yes I know im a sad old git for staying in christmas eve....im saving myself for Christmas day
As for your question....I believe the concept as a used car salesman once put it......comparing "apples with apples"...as I understand it (this is second hand....but from the 2IC of training in one particular Airbus operator...to whom I have made a phonecall to check the accuracy of detail...he is also a golfing & drinking buddy of mine) the course consists of all the required elements to complete a JAA type rating in accordance with this particular companies Ops & training manual..I was also told that there is no transition required on return to the JAA region..other than a company base check (which I believe completes the TR) also as this centre has JAR approval to complete TR training they are investigating completing Base checks at the training facility with company pilots. My understanding is however the documentation is still signed off here. Finally LOFT..is completed with company training Captains to reach profficiency....I dont know the minimum number of sectors required to complete this.
As to the quality of training recieved?....I have no idea...the training provider in the US is however VERY well known.
Puritan..please correct me if you see anything that doesnt make sense(im not a training expert!)....as I've said...this is second-hand....but from an impecable and source who is above reproach.
Finally the courses are well advertised..any quick search on the information super highway...should yield results....merry Xmas one and all!
As for your question....I believe the concept as a used car salesman once put it......comparing "apples with apples"...as I understand it (this is second hand....but from the 2IC of training in one particular Airbus operator...to whom I have made a phonecall to check the accuracy of detail...he is also a golfing & drinking buddy of mine) the course consists of all the required elements to complete a JAA type rating in accordance with this particular companies Ops & training manual..I was also told that there is no transition required on return to the JAA region..other than a company base check (which I believe completes the TR) also as this centre has JAR approval to complete TR training they are investigating completing Base checks at the training facility with company pilots. My understanding is however the documentation is still signed off here. Finally LOFT..is completed with company training Captains to reach profficiency....I dont know the minimum number of sectors required to complete this.
As to the quality of training recieved?....I have no idea...the training provider in the US is however VERY well known.
Puritan..please correct me if you see anything that doesnt make sense(im not a training expert!)....as I've said...this is second-hand....but from an impecable and source who is above reproach.
Finally the courses are well advertised..any quick search on the information super highway...should yield results....merry Xmas one and all!
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smith
Or don stockings and suzzies if you want to prostitute yourselves!
Or don stockings and suzzies if you want to prostitute yourselves!
If those paying for a TR were to prostitute themselves, they would earn easy money doing that.
What happen in fact is that they are going to the whores, and paying a lot for that but if they are not married (don't have a job) there is no other solution for them
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OBK and CIPO
guys i dont think there is any snobbery involved , if any one is wearing blinkers here its the two of ye ....
do ye not think that when all the rest of the professional pilots here advise ye not to seek employment with Ryanair that maybe they have a point
ryanair stinks , i know , i work there
remember ....everyother person that joins after you will join on a worse contract , just as every other person that joined after me did , this will eventually affect the guys ahead of you ... and in time market forces will cause the competition to do the same regardless of how strong their unions are ....
do you really want this ....or do you not care about your
would-be fellow professionals
we all want jobs , we all have bills to pay (you aswell i presume )
but if you kill the golden goose today , you wont get any golden eggs for breakfast tomorrow
happy christmas
guys i dont think there is any snobbery involved , if any one is wearing blinkers here its the two of ye ....
do ye not think that when all the rest of the professional pilots here advise ye not to seek employment with Ryanair that maybe they have a point
ryanair stinks , i know , i work there
remember ....everyother person that joins after you will join on a worse contract , just as every other person that joined after me did , this will eventually affect the guys ahead of you ... and in time market forces will cause the competition to do the same regardless of how strong their unions are ....
do you really want this ....or do you not care about your
would-be fellow professionals
we all want jobs , we all have bills to pay (you aswell i presume )
but if you kill the golden goose today , you wont get any golden eggs for breakfast tomorrow
happy christmas
Join Date: Nov 2001
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i'll be glad to answer all questions regarding pay and conditions after we have resolved the current issues in ryanair , unfortunetly as everyone is on completely different contracts , its easy for ryanair to narrow it down to quite a few people who wrote what here and i wouldnt draw that sort of attention on myself or my colleagues .
its sad when paranoia like this becomes the norm
ryanair was only beginning its journey down the bad industrial relations slope when i joined and its reputation wasnt that bad .
its sad when paranoia like this becomes the norm
ryanair was only beginning its journey down the bad industrial relations slope when i joined and its reputation wasnt that bad .
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but if you kill the golden goose today , you wont get any golden eggs for breakfast tomorrow
isn't unless you're an accountant
, it will nonetheless be made.People have made the claim that as these FNG's are low in experience they should be glad to take so little and be happy. The point being missed here is that, low time they may be, they are still AIRLINE PILOTS. And thus doing the same job as 2500hr FO's both here and elsewhere. If FR, and other airlines, decide that 250hr FO's can do the same, get paid less, what is the incentive to hire experienced people? So now the scenario exists where pay gets forced down and down for all FO's, in any airline. This will also decrease job mobility which will in turn lower Ts and Cs. Whereby captains pay will inevitably follow south.
CIPO, OBK etc, think this through carefully as once you set foot on the slippery slope, your prospects are not going to get much better.
CIPO, as for your buddies in "BMI,Virgin,BA,Aer Lingus" who allegedly agree with your course of action, absolute poppycock. Such pilots will never, and rightly so, agree with your actions for the very reasons I have outlined above, plus a large number of other reasons.
I should also point out to those who inevitably fall back to bleating "but its a 737NG, yadda, yadda, yadda". It is, but the thrill of it being that will wear off rather quickly when you realise you're broke. And don't have any great Ts and Cs to look forward to. I reckon this will take about 6 months at most, if you are like everyone else who starts an airline job.
Are you all aware that FR captains have been known to have to give newbie FO's money at the end of the day so they could actually afford to buy dinner?
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Since this is all about pay and Ryanair.
Does somebody know how much the difference in pay is with Ryanair between a UK base and if you are mainland based. Because apparently the pay is quite different.
Ptt
Does somebody know how much the difference in pay is with Ryanair between a UK base and if you are mainland based. Because apparently the pay is quite different.
Ptt
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Why not moan about emerald's pathetic salary
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Some of you guys are never happy.
I've recently been offered a Cadet position with Ryanair. I have got myself in huge debt to get to this positon but unlike you guys I have a bit of foresight. Look around, how many other company's are expanding/recruiting like Ryanair. Sometimes guys you've got to take an initial hit to progress in life.
I hope some of you take this onboard.
I've recently been offered a Cadet position with Ryanair. I have got myself in huge debt to get to this positon but unlike you guys I have a bit of foresight. Look around, how many other company's are expanding/recruiting like Ryanair. Sometimes guys you've got to take an initial hit to progress in life.
I hope some of you take this onboard.
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Ryanair
look as far as i can see they'll be the ones with egg all over them.
Bmi and BA are all looking for the fATPL pilots with the top marks from Jerez and other schools. So knuckle down study hard and then the good airlines WILL be interested in you. Their only gettin away with it because the business was so slack the last few years.
Bmi and BA are all looking for the fATPL pilots with the top marks from Jerez and other schools. So knuckle down study hard and then the good airlines WILL be interested in you. Their only gettin away with it because the business was so slack the last few years.
Join Date: Oct 2004
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SSTR / RYANAIR PAY
Just been reading the thread which covers SSTR and Ryanair pay.
I agree with nearly every comment here. It is frustrating to think that you have to pay for the TR. Although, when you are as desperate as some of us our, it seems the only logical step forward. Irrelavant, if not undestanding, of the moral implications we are reflecting of the industry.
If i had the money to do it, then i probably would. Then bear the bad T's & C's, and keep my head down until something better came along.
I am not too sure on the bonding conditions so please do not put me on the rack for the above comment.
I have heard from a few people at my local airfierld concerning people who have SSTR and been out of work 1+ year. That i think is a bitter'er pill to swallow after doing the TR in the first place.
This is without doubt, the most fickle, confusing sometimes morally absent industry i have ever experienced. And i am still just looking in from the outside!.
As puritan said, "no guaratees with any of it". It's a very sobering statement. I thought that getting acting work was difficult. NOTHING compared to this. It is said that 98% of equity card members are out of work. I would like to know how many newly qualified fATPL'ers are in the same position. The two most difficult industries i have tried to find work in.
I am still possitive however, believing there is a Cessna 150 for all of us out there, chartering business people from elstree to Denham......how glamorous.
I agree with nearly every comment here. It is frustrating to think that you have to pay for the TR. Although, when you are as desperate as some of us our, it seems the only logical step forward. Irrelavant, if not undestanding, of the moral implications we are reflecting of the industry.
If i had the money to do it, then i probably would. Then bear the bad T's & C's, and keep my head down until something better came along.
I am not too sure on the bonding conditions so please do not put me on the rack for the above comment.
I have heard from a few people at my local airfierld concerning people who have SSTR and been out of work 1+ year. That i think is a bitter'er pill to swallow after doing the TR in the first place.
This is without doubt, the most fickle, confusing sometimes morally absent industry i have ever experienced. And i am still just looking in from the outside!.
As puritan said, "no guaratees with any of it". It's a very sobering statement. I thought that getting acting work was difficult. NOTHING compared to this. It is said that 98% of equity card members are out of work. I would like to know how many newly qualified fATPL'ers are in the same position. The two most difficult industries i have tried to find work in.
I am still possitive however, believing there is a Cessna 150 for all of us out there, chartering business people from elstree to Denham......how glamorous.
Grim Sleeper
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I would say to everyone - get used to it. The Ryanairs and Easyjets of the world are driving down T&Cs for everyone.
Just a few years ago no airline was arrogant enough enough to ask anyone to pay for a type rating - it was taken as read that they would pay for it and you would go on a bond for a determined time.
Now it's becoming the norm in the UK to expect new joiners, even those with lots of experience and a proven track record, to stump up for a type rating.
Constant expansion, increased competition, but no substance. Easy or Ryan could be the richest companies ever to collapse overnight. Then where would you be with your 500 hours and type rating? Hope you like halal food folks cos that's where you'll find the contract work.
Just a few years ago no airline was arrogant enough enough to ask anyone to pay for a type rating - it was taken as read that they would pay for it and you would go on a bond for a determined time.
Now it's becoming the norm in the UK to expect new joiners, even those with lots of experience and a proven track record, to stump up for a type rating.
Constant expansion, increased competition, but no substance. Easy or Ryan could be the richest companies ever to collapse overnight. Then where would you be with your 500 hours and type rating? Hope you like halal food folks cos that's where you'll find the contract work.
Join Date: Nov 2002
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The salary and conditions are dredful.
Sure, the market works on supply and demand.
If every one says NO to Ryanair than surely they will have to go to plan two. (they pay for type and bond for 3 years.fullstop)
The market is picking up big time and soon there will be a shortage. Ryanair will have to reconsider.
In the mean time hold tight and DONT PAY FOR TR ANYWHERE!!!!
this must all come to a stop and pilots must be treated as professionals and equals.
Sure, the market works on supply and demand.
If every one says NO to Ryanair than surely they will have to go to plan two. (they pay for type and bond for 3 years.fullstop)
The market is picking up big time and soon there will be a shortage. Ryanair will have to reconsider.
In the mean time hold tight and DONT PAY FOR TR ANYWHERE!!!!
this must all come to a stop and pilots must be treated as professionals and equals.
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For Gods sake, when will we pilots learn, stop pandering to the airlines (Ryan Air???) every need and we may get treated like professionals. I blame all you silly people out there who pay the money in the first place. We are our own worst enemy. MUGS.
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pay for a job
I was always of the belief that a pilot should not pay for a type rating. Bonding a pilot I can understand, but a few things lately have changed my opinion ...
Lets start out with pay in other countries...I know of a national carrier in an english speaking country that starts the f/os off at under 20 000 sterling a year with no bond in place or a pay for your type rating. Now I have never really seen anyone complain about this carrier or the pay awarded for new joiners. I am also aware of a Low Cost in this country much like a Ryan or Easy Jet that pays very very low less then 20 000 sterling and works the pilots very very hard and yet again not many people complain about this company....
If someone offered you a return on your investment in three years time of 20 percent or more guaranteed, would you accept it??? Of course you would..
So now I come to Ryan air, they make you pay for most things, your interview, your sim check, your water, your medical and so on, but is anyone going to argue that in three years time you will not be making more then enough money to live comfortably?? Is Ryan air not paying close to or more than the national carrier here yet hiring so many more then the national carrier here?
If I was to pay for a rating, and my return pay in the years to come was not worth it then yes I am totally against it. But that is not the case with Ryan air, THEY PAY WELL......
Now you have 250 hour guys complaining about the t/c of these companies yet they live in a country that offers them the opportunity to fly a jet, go to north america guys, work out on the ramp for an airline for 2 or 3 years hoping they may throw you in a 172 hauling freight, or try flying a navajo with 2 inches of ice covering it, flying into places like Terrace or even worse approaches that you cant even imagine here for 10 000 sterling a year living in the hangar trying to make ends meet.
That country doesnt have airlines that make you pay for a rating yet the T/C are far worse then anything you can imagine in this country and to fly a jet in that country would take you at least 3000 or 4000 hours.... The brits love to complain, its part of the heritage here and yet they have some of the highest paying jobs around for experience achieved.....
T/C are determined not by paying for a rating, but by the amount of pilots looking for work...10 000 pilots 5000 jobs t/c will go down...
Now my final points...Someone will say but its so expensive to live in this country, all I can say is what a load of as you say bollocks, dont live in London. Its as affordable to live in the UK when not in the Major cities as it is anywhere else in the world...
In this country it seems expected that once you have a multi IR you should be flying a 737 800 and if it doesnt go your way you become bitter and twisted and lash out at all the others trying to make something of themself...
Again name an airline here that pays 10 000 sterling a year flying single pilot ifr approaches in the mountains and I may listen to the complaining.....(but its all good because you dont have to pay for the training!!!!!!)
ps...before someone complains that i am Management for the above stated airline that makes you pay for your training, I can assure you that I am not or am I associated with it in anyway. Some people here can be free thinking in their opinions without being management...
I wish all of you out there all the best in your hunt for a job, keep your head up your attitude of the highest calibre and that great job will come your way at some point....
csf
Lets start out with pay in other countries...I know of a national carrier in an english speaking country that starts the f/os off at under 20 000 sterling a year with no bond in place or a pay for your type rating. Now I have never really seen anyone complain about this carrier or the pay awarded for new joiners. I am also aware of a Low Cost in this country much like a Ryan or Easy Jet that pays very very low less then 20 000 sterling and works the pilots very very hard and yet again not many people complain about this company....
If someone offered you a return on your investment in three years time of 20 percent or more guaranteed, would you accept it??? Of course you would..
So now I come to Ryan air, they make you pay for most things, your interview, your sim check, your water, your medical and so on, but is anyone going to argue that in three years time you will not be making more then enough money to live comfortably?? Is Ryan air not paying close to or more than the national carrier here yet hiring so many more then the national carrier here?
If I was to pay for a rating, and my return pay in the years to come was not worth it then yes I am totally against it. But that is not the case with Ryan air, THEY PAY WELL......
Now you have 250 hour guys complaining about the t/c of these companies yet they live in a country that offers them the opportunity to fly a jet, go to north america guys, work out on the ramp for an airline for 2 or 3 years hoping they may throw you in a 172 hauling freight, or try flying a navajo with 2 inches of ice covering it, flying into places like Terrace or even worse approaches that you cant even imagine here for 10 000 sterling a year living in the hangar trying to make ends meet.
That country doesnt have airlines that make you pay for a rating yet the T/C are far worse then anything you can imagine in this country and to fly a jet in that country would take you at least 3000 or 4000 hours.... The brits love to complain, its part of the heritage here and yet they have some of the highest paying jobs around for experience achieved.....
T/C are determined not by paying for a rating, but by the amount of pilots looking for work...10 000 pilots 5000 jobs t/c will go down...
Now my final points...Someone will say but its so expensive to live in this country, all I can say is what a load of as you say bollocks, dont live in London. Its as affordable to live in the UK when not in the Major cities as it is anywhere else in the world...
In this country it seems expected that once you have a multi IR you should be flying a 737 800 and if it doesnt go your way you become bitter and twisted and lash out at all the others trying to make something of themself...
Again name an airline here that pays 10 000 sterling a year flying single pilot ifr approaches in the mountains and I may listen to the complaining.....(but its all good because you dont have to pay for the training!!!!!!)
ps...before someone complains that i am Management for the above stated airline that makes you pay for your training, I can assure you that I am not or am I associated with it in anyway. Some people here can be free thinking in their opinions without being management...
I wish all of you out there all the best in your hunt for a job, keep your head up your attitude of the highest calibre and that great job will come your way at some point....
csf
Last edited by chockstarfish; 9th Jun 2005 at 09:12.
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QUOTE:
In this country it seems expected that once you have a multi IR you should be flying a 737 800 and if it doesnt go your way you become bitter and twisted and lash out at all the others trying to make something of themself..
__________
Ha ha ha ah it's true. If you dont like it go to australia/canada and try 'flying a plane full of rubber dog sh*t out Hong Kong' for 5 years just trying to get a sniff at a regional turbo prop.
Nice as it might be to have your rating, hotels, socks and jocks paid for by your employer (i've spoke to a few with this kind of package) it doesnt work anymore! he could be sitting in the right seat for 15-20 years before he gets command. Ryr will put you there in 4-5Max.
Besides it's an Irish airline. Go join BA and complain how miserable and tight they are instead.
The industry has changed, deal with it!
chockstarfish great post most sense ive heard on this forum to date.
In this country it seems expected that once you have a multi IR you should be flying a 737 800 and if it doesnt go your way you become bitter and twisted and lash out at all the others trying to make something of themself..
__________
Ha ha ha ah it's true. If you dont like it go to australia/canada and try 'flying a plane full of rubber dog sh*t out Hong Kong' for 5 years just trying to get a sniff at a regional turbo prop.
Nice as it might be to have your rating, hotels, socks and jocks paid for by your employer (i've spoke to a few with this kind of package) it doesnt work anymore! he could be sitting in the right seat for 15-20 years before he gets command. Ryr will put you there in 4-5Max.
Besides it's an Irish airline. Go join BA
and complain how miserable and tight they are instead.The industry has changed, deal with it!
chockstarfish great post most sense ive heard on this forum to date.