Ryanair Pay for New Joiners...
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CIPO, you too seem somewhat misinformed about the job market. You reckon after you have finished taking it up the a$$ for a year at FR you can go off and get something better? Well, sorry to break the bad news but as FR gets away with this sort of BS, the rest will try to drag their T's and C's down to the same demeaning level. Then your hoped for greener grass will look a similar shade of brown to FR and you will only have 30 odd years to retirement (on a crap pension). I suggest you switch off MS flightsim and talk to some real airline pilots about T's and C's (and I don't mean high seniority people at BA etc on old contracts, which none of us will ever get) and have a look at the Terms and Endearments thread. You, and many other wannabes, may find the experience quite educational, as well as depressing.
The sooner people realise that accepting FR's conditions is only an illusory gain and that they are in fact destroying their own future, the better for us all.
The sooner people realise that accepting FR's conditions is only an illusory gain and that they are in fact destroying their own future, the better for us all.
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Getting paid, however much or little, to fly a jet is far far better than paying to fly a prop on a 'b&q' salary.
Just get a non-aviation job until a better-paid one comes up.
Do you think O'Leary works for free as well?
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Getting paid, however much or little, to fly a jet is far far better than paying to fly a prop on a 'b&q' salary.
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Hey Captain Chuckles
I agree with the paying for type rating comment but hold fire on the having a dig at people who have been successful in another industry before joining the whole aviation scene.... who says just because someone can get through their training without being a £100k in debt they are not going to make a good pilot... thats a pretty big generalisation.
Just ask yourself WHY they have been able to fund their training without getting into debt.... perhaps because they tend to be very bright capable people who work very hard... why does that necessarily make them bad pilots?
One of the frequent complaints I read on Pprune is the "dumbing down" of talent in the industry and pilots being fed up with being viewed as "little more than a busdriver". Well think about it this way... take a look at the academic qualifications and general level of ability you have to demonstrate even to be "considered" as a potential employee of an investment bank, or to become a doctor, dentist even an accountant for that matter... a selection of professions to which comparisons are frequently drawn in reference to pay scales on this very forum. Then take a look at the academic qualifications needed to get on a course at OAT or FTE.... the phrase "night and day" springs to mind.
I'll wager that in the days of the old sponsored training programs unless you were bloody good academically and in terms of all round ability at school/university the chances of getting a sniff of a cadetship was pretty small.
Perhaps your anger would be better focused on ensuring that a higher quality of "wanabee" both academically and in terms of ability is able to start training in the first place rather than differentating simply between those who can pay and those who can't.
Higher basic entrance standards into the profession = fewer but higher quality pilots in my book.... hmmm maybe that would even help overcome the supply/demand inbalance of newly qualified, low houred pilots that enables companies like Ryanair to take the piss??
It would also prevent those that are not up to the grade from starting training in the first place and racking up a huge amount of debt only to end up without a job... they might not like it but you'd be doing them a favour in the long-run
Rather than blame wanabees based on simply whether they are rich or poor why not take a look at the system that is letting in less and less qualified people who are sold a dream by a training organisation whose sole intention is to crank out as many "qualified pilots" as possible.
To turn a well known expression on its head...
"Train monkeys... you only have to pay them peanuts"
... no wonder T&Cs are going only one-way...
I agree with the paying for type rating comment but hold fire on the having a dig at people who have been successful in another industry before joining the whole aviation scene.... who says just because someone can get through their training without being a £100k in debt they are not going to make a good pilot... thats a pretty big generalisation.
Just ask yourself WHY they have been able to fund their training without getting into debt.... perhaps because they tend to be very bright capable people who work very hard... why does that necessarily make them bad pilots?
One of the frequent complaints I read on Pprune is the "dumbing down" of talent in the industry and pilots being fed up with being viewed as "little more than a busdriver". Well think about it this way... take a look at the academic qualifications and general level of ability you have to demonstrate even to be "considered" as a potential employee of an investment bank, or to become a doctor, dentist even an accountant for that matter... a selection of professions to which comparisons are frequently drawn in reference to pay scales on this very forum. Then take a look at the academic qualifications needed to get on a course at OAT or FTE.... the phrase "night and day" springs to mind.
I'll wager that in the days of the old sponsored training programs unless you were bloody good academically and in terms of all round ability at school/university the chances of getting a sniff of a cadetship was pretty small.
Perhaps your anger would be better focused on ensuring that a higher quality of "wanabee" both academically and in terms of ability is able to start training in the first place rather than differentating simply between those who can pay and those who can't.
Higher basic entrance standards into the profession = fewer but higher quality pilots in my book.... hmmm maybe that would even help overcome the supply/demand inbalance of newly qualified, low houred pilots that enables companies like Ryanair to take the piss??
It would also prevent those that are not up to the grade from starting training in the first place and racking up a huge amount of debt only to end up without a job... they might not like it but you'd be doing them a favour in the long-run
Rather than blame wanabees based on simply whether they are rich or poor why not take a look at the system that is letting in less and less qualified people who are sold a dream by a training organisation whose sole intention is to crank out as many "qualified pilots" as possible.
To turn a well known expression on its head...
"Train monkeys... you only have to pay them peanuts"
... no wonder T&Cs are going only one-way...
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Grass strip you make some very accurate..and well thought out points...however..you've missed the point. This thread has nothing to do with the quality of wannabe or their ability to get deep into debt....and although your comments are generally accurate(in terms of those with the cash to do it)...I wonder what your level of exposure to the industry actually is..(not a dig at you..just a polite enquiry) The present problem has arisen out of clever marketing, unrealistic expectations, and personal greed. It is overly simplistic to say abritrary standards need to be raised to prevent the "chaff" from entering this profession. As it stands there are plenty of those that are in love with the thought of that shiney braid on their shoulders...the smell of Jet A1...and would be happy to sell their left nut if they thought it would get them a job. I suggest you get off the soap box for a moment and examine the situation pragmatically...then and only then will you see its not a problem with standards..its an issue of those in a postion to exploit...exploiting those who believe they can get there at any cost.
OBK....I dont usually get peeved off but...you Bl@%dy fool....Ryanair will take your money..then take a bit more..then change the rules so they can take the rest....its not an opportunity..its folly..pure and simple. Before you howl at me...I dont fly jets..I fly turbo-props..(happily..contentedly...and someday I'll get a jet job)..having dropped meat bombs...towed gliders...positioned a/c for maintenance..swept floors..worked in pubs...driven a mini-bus. And yes if you think you should jump straight into the RH seat of a shiney new boeing..go for it...I know I'm £30-40 better off already
Scroggs sorry for the harsh words.......I just wish these muppets would open their eyes!
OBK....I dont usually get peeved off but...you Bl@%dy fool....Ryanair will take your money..then take a bit more..then change the rules so they can take the rest....its not an opportunity..its folly..pure and simple. Before you howl at me...I dont fly jets..I fly turbo-props..(happily..contentedly...and someday I'll get a jet job)..having dropped meat bombs...towed gliders...positioned a/c for maintenance..swept floors..worked in pubs...driven a mini-bus. And yes if you think you should jump straight into the RH seat of a shiney new boeing..go for it...I know I'm £30-40 better off already
Scroggs sorry for the harsh words.......I just wish these muppets would open their eyes!
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El nino
DO you have a job?
I don't play ms flight sim.
I have 15-20 airline pilots(BMI,Virgin,BA,Aer Lingus) i can talk to.
And as for FR having crap training, you should try and pass their new sim check for cadets............
DO you have a job?
I don't play ms flight sim.
I have 15-20 airline pilots(BMI,Virgin,BA,Aer Lingus) i can talk to.
And as for FR having crap training, you should try and pass their new sim check for cadets............
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CIPO
if you calmed down a bit then maybe el nino would talk to you too ......then you'd have another airline pilot you could chat to.
if you read his profile you would see that he is a commercial pilot ,
and while were at it , try passing a sim check in a crap BAC 1-11 sim in dublin
and then complain to me
if you calmed down a bit then maybe el nino would talk to you too ......then you'd have another airline pilot you could chat to.
if you read his profile you would see that he is a commercial pilot ,
and while were at it , try passing a sim check in a crap BAC 1-11 sim in dublin
and then complain to me
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CIPO, as signeti points out, yes I do have an airline job. I imagine any one of your mates in "BMI,Virgin,BA,Aer Lingus" would agree absolutely wholeheartedly with what I and others are saying, if for no other reason that it is the T's and C's in these very companies that the FR way has damaged so badly.
Very interesting statistic for those advocates of the FR way as the stepping stone. I believe from very good FR sources that the amount of FR pilots who have succeeded in getting a BA job in the last while is zero and the amount at VS in the last few years is 1. A damning statistic considering the amount of people in FR who consider it as a stepping stone to better. Ponder on that those who want to spend obscene money to recieve peanuts from OLeary.
Very interesting statistic for those advocates of the FR way as the stepping stone. I believe from very good FR sources that the amount of FR pilots who have succeeded in getting a BA job in the last while is zero and the amount at VS in the last few years is 1. A damning statistic considering the amount of people in FR who consider it as a stepping stone to better. Ponder on that those who want to spend obscene money to recieve peanuts from OLeary.
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Grass Strip Basher,
You are missing the point I am making. I am very concerned about the current trend of airlines making pilots pay to work. There has always been a large percentage of pilots who have paid for their own training combined with the military retirees, these people have made up the mjority of of the pilot workforce. Sponsored cadets have always been a minority.
What we are now seeing is the cynical abuse of people's hopes and dreams.
My experience of people who have bought a type rating from a third party TRTO is that it does not save the company very much money as they have usually been trained to a different set of SOPs than those that we use. Unless the new hire is very sharp and a good operator, our saving on training costs is not significant. sadly the accountants run the show and do not see what is happening on the line.
Also I do not play MS Flight Sim. I hate it.
You are missing the point I am making. I am very concerned about the current trend of airlines making pilots pay to work. There has always been a large percentage of pilots who have paid for their own training combined with the military retirees, these people have made up the mjority of of the pilot workforce. Sponsored cadets have always been a minority.
What we are now seeing is the cynical abuse of people's hopes and dreams.
My experience of people who have bought a type rating from a third party TRTO is that it does not save the company very much money as they have usually been trained to a different set of SOPs than those that we use. Unless the new hire is very sharp and a good operator, our saving on training costs is not significant. sadly the accountants run the show and do not see what is happening on the line.
Also I do not play MS Flight Sim. I hate it.
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I don't have a German sports car, nor do I have all the money in the world.
I'm in this game primarily for the flying. Maybe because I'm young, the thought of paying for a type rating doesn't really put me off that much because I've been partly bought up with the fact and I've plenty of time, hopfully, to recuperate from huge debts, and I'm keen.
I'm in this game primarily for the flying. Maybe because I'm young, the thought of paying for a type rating doesn't really put me off that much because I've been partly bought up with the fact and I've plenty of time, hopfully, to recuperate from huge debts, and I'm keen.
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So let me get this straight...
1. You apply to GECAT, or whoever, to do a RYR SSTR.
2. They accept you, you do the type rating (£20K)
3. You then apply to RYR (£50)
4. They then sim check you (£???)
5. If "lucky" enough to be offered a job, they pay you peanuts and treat you rougher than a rugby ball at an All Blacks game?
Jeeeeeeeez. I thought I was crazy.
1. You apply to GECAT, or whoever, to do a RYR SSTR.
2. They accept you, you do the type rating (£20K)
3. You then apply to RYR (£50)
4. They then sim check you (£???)
5. If "lucky" enough to be offered a job, they pay you peanuts and treat you rougher than a rugby ball at an All Blacks game?
Jeeeeeeeez. I thought I was crazy.
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OBK,
At the end of the day flying is a job pure and simple. An enjoyable job it has to be said BUT you still have to earn a decent crust to live. When you factor in the huge initial outlay, idle talk like you are currently spouting makes no sense at all. Or perhaps I'm missing something and you plan to live on hot air alone!
Anyway, as soon as you grow up and realise the folly of your attitude, you might recognise the damage these terms and conditions are doing to the industry.
I have no doubt you will live to regret your attitude one day!
At the end of the day flying is a job pure and simple. An enjoyable job it has to be said BUT you still have to earn a decent crust to live. When you factor in the huge initial outlay, idle talk like you are currently spouting makes no sense at all. Or perhaps I'm missing something and you plan to live on hot air alone!
Anyway, as soon as you grow up and realise the folly of your attitude, you might recognise the damage these terms and conditions are doing to the industry. I have no doubt you will live to regret your attitude one day!
Last edited by scroggs; 24th Dec 2004 at 14:33.
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Captain Chuckles - W.r.t. 'My experience of people who have bought a type rating from a third party TRTO is that it does not save the company very much money as they have usually been trained to a different set of SOPs than those that we use'
Err - all other issues aside - given that you say that such training doesn't save a company very much money, could you please explain, in detail, where / how your own airline manages to spend what would be in the region of, say, £18,000 - £22,000 ( the typical cost of a type-rating ) on line-training its SOPS to somebody who has SSTR'd ?
Err - all other issues aside - given that you say that such training doesn't save a company very much money, could you please explain, in detail, where / how your own airline manages to spend what would be in the region of, say, £18,000 - £22,000 ( the typical cost of a type-rating ) on line-training its SOPS to somebody who has SSTR'd ?
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Puritan...there are several UK..and EU based carriers currently training crews in the US...for around £11000.00 per person (inclusive of accomodation + airfares)...no vat...JAA compliant.....and with instructors who are every bit as experienced as they are here. Oh and this doesn't take into account the present strength of the pound.
Value for money I think...and yes crews are bonded for 3 years....737, A320, A340, and 767.....(not sure about any other types at the moment).
H
Value for money I think...and yes crews are bonded for 3 years....737, A320, A340, and 767.....(not sure about any other types at the moment).
H
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Ray Ban
I don't think that was necessary. We're obviously different but there's no need for childish abuse.
I noticed on your profile that you have an FI rating. I'm not being ignorant here but assuming you are a full time instructor, how do you manage to earn a decent crust? I ask because I'm still investigating the avenues I can go down as a low hour pilot. I've always been told that flight instructors don't earn very much and find it hard to earn a living, especially in the winter.
Cheers
I don't think that was necessary. We're obviously different but there's no need for childish abuse.
I noticed on your profile that you have an FI rating. I'm not being ignorant here but assuming you are a full time instructor, how do you manage to earn a decent crust? I ask because I'm still investigating the avenues I can go down as a low hour pilot. I've always been told that flight instructors don't earn very much and find it hard to earn a living, especially in the winter.
Cheers
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Obviously snobbery rules with some people here, we've got jobs so lets slag off all those willing to go for Ryanair selection.
All the pilots I know are 100% behind me going for this, and they would NOT agree with your opinions.
I'm not a fool, I know a lot of the t and c's aren't great but i'd rather sign up to it than be a PPL or IR instructor.
All i want is some line experience and am very willing to pay 20k for an 800 TR. Would have second thoughts if it was a 200 or an ATR rating, but you don't get a better rating.
How many 737 3-800's are flying worldwide?????
Hope I don't turn into a job snob when it comes along.........
All the pilots I know are 100% behind me going for this, and they would NOT agree with your opinions.
I'm not a fool, I know a lot of the t and c's aren't great but i'd rather sign up to it than be a PPL or IR instructor.
All i want is some line experience and am very willing to pay 20k for an 800 TR. Would have second thoughts if it was a 200 or an ATR rating, but you don't get a better rating.
How many 737 3-800's are flying worldwide?????
Hope I don't turn into a job snob when it comes along.........
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Whilst I don't quite agree with SSTRs I can understand why some of us do them. What I can't fathom however, is that after paying for said type rating and thus saving the airline many thousands of pounds, you have to work for such a shamefully low salary. That's my real problem with Ryanair, they want it both ways, which frankly stinks.
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Anyone who pays for a type rating is doing themselves and the industry a great disservice.
Why not just join the French foreign legion if you have such mercenary attitudes.
Or don stockings and suzzies if you want to prostitute yourselves!
Why not just join the French foreign legion if you have such mercenary attitudes.
Or don stockings and suzzies if you want to prostitute yourselves!