Astreus - Any Good

[A-3TWENTY]

Dear lookoutbelow....

1. Before attending this T/R I didn`t know Astraeus.

2. I don`t fly neither in England nor to another company which could eventually be competing with Astraeus in the market,so I have no reason to lie.

3. I`m not a composer, musician,or writer ,so I think it would be impossible to me to invent a story like this.

4. You are so out of the hapenings in a desperate effort to protect the company you work to( or maybe taking me for someone else,making me conclude that we are already 3 unhappy clients) ,that you got confused about the manuals.
I never received the manuals,until the last day,and after threating Astraeus that I wouldn`t pay the second part of the T/R without the manuals .
After getting annoy with some guys whose name I don`t remember ,I received the FCOM 1 and 3 (Without covers).FCOM 2 and 4 I had to get with a friend who attended a T/R in another school.

5. I didn`t demand any shorts.I phoned Astraeus as I did to several others and asked when the T/R´s would start.I choosed Astraeus because it had a course planed to start earlier than others.

6. I didn`t have any problems relating to the simulators(and I didn`t say that on my last post) ,which make me think that you are taking me for another unhappy pilot.

7.When I talked about the base trainning I was just trying to alert other pilots to avoid burning money.

8.Despite beeing my third T/R ,it`s the first time I pay for it , so I have no experience with other schools.

Dear Puritan,

I can see that you don`t have the same problems with Boeing`s manuals as you have with Airbuses ( Maybe because you are a Boeing operator).

Regards

A-3TWENTY

[Hamrah]

Captain Chuckles,

Thanks for your input.

I think you will find Puritans input consistent and unchanged.

However, I have pointed out many times, including on this thread, that the industry has changed. You quote Puritan from post before the industry was brought to it's knees.....in particular:-

and it is often for this reason alone that many airline Ops Directors / Chief Pilots will strongly caution ab-initio pilots against spending money on a self-sponsored type-rating(s),

The sad reality is that many chief pilots now work actively with TRTO's to recruit ONLY pilots with type ratings, even self sponsored ones. At the moment, all operators of 737's in the UK, will recruit ONLY type rated pilots or those willing to pay for their type ratings. This is the harsh reality of the modern industry.

You will not find, no matter how hard you look, an occasion where I have promoted the position of people buying type ratings. I will keep my views on that to myself.

Having said that, there is, whether any of us like it or not, a strong demand for that product, from both airlines and pilots and in this instance I am comfortable with Astraeus/Bond offering a product, based around an operating airline, to that sector of the industry that seeks it out.

At the end of the day, as always in our industry, it is the law of supply and demand that drives pilot recruitment and training, and with the current supply far exceeding demand at this time, I can not forsee a significant change in the short-to medium term future.

I'm not sure about your comment re - " showcasing". Perhaps you could elaborate. All threads in this forum regarding self sponsored type-ratings break down into those who want to do it, and those who abhor the notion of doing it. This one is no different. I'm sure if you PM any of the former students thay will give you a warts and all review of their course. It is interesting that since this thread started I have had 16 PM's and 12 e-mails asking for advice, which I have gladly and freely given. On no occasion, have I recommended anyone doing a Self Sponsored Type Rating.

[haughtney1]

Hamrah.....

I have followed this thread with a great deal of interest (both professional and personal reasons)...and I would say now that on many points I agree readily with your view point..apart from perhaps that the market will continue to demand Self Sponsered TR's from providers such as yourself in the short/medium term...I believe the jury is still out on that.
On that point, and indeed bearing in mind the premise of supply and demand, is it just enough for the average wannabe to emerge with their shiney new TR with little or no line experience?
Surely a far more economic..and perhaps sustainable approach is to bond said individuals..ala CTC easyjet...rather than recruit on the basis of financial viability (we all know that ultimately finances dictate whether or not a candidate can progress...regardless of whether they scored the highest marks in pre-screening)
My personal opinion is that a speculative TR is just that...speculation, the only real winners in this situation are the TRTO's who gain a return on their investment. Bear in mind that a large percentage of students carry a large debt burden with them, and their expectation is that a TR will secure employment..when plainly this is is just one part of the equation. I wonder Hamrah..given your experience, commercial savy, and perhaps your present situation whether you have taken your position on this due to it being expedient and financially rewarding to do so, rather than providing a value for money career advancement tool to those who will realise their potential(please correct me if I am wrong..or wide of the mark)
I approach this issue from the stand point of a working line pilot.....I see many wannabees sweating blood to get that first opportunity, and then I see companies and individuals exploit that desire (not a personal slight on you...more an observation of the industry as a whole)..I just wonder were will it all end...as I understand it (and I could be wrong...it wouldn't be the first time), your organisation has individuals paying too fly the line, if this is correct..what is next?

[redsnail]

I believe Crashdive made that post after Sept 11, 2001.
Try Dec 28, 2002.

[Captain Chuckles]

Hamrah,

I am aware of the situation in the UK, but I work for a European lo-Cost/charter carrier and the concept of paying for a type rating I find unpleasant. As I have said on another string the training savings on the few new hires we have taken on have not been significant. Our fleet manager is concerned about the effects of people paying for type ratings and the loyalty of pilots and the effect of pilots throughstreaming the company reducing the effectiveness of training and stability of crewing. So far it has not happened as we are still hiring to bond for 3 years, but pressure from management may end this, and a few SSTR pilots have already been hired.

I did not think this issue ould directly affect me as I have many thousands of hours on 737 and 757, but after applying to a 747-400 operator in Luxembourg and offered a self sponsored type rating deal I was shocked. I did not expect such well regarded airline to be party to this of practice and certainly not for the experience levels required.

while you may be comfortable presenting your products, you are now heading towards the end of your career and the effects of making self sponsored type ratings will have little effect on your personal career, Astreaus and Ryanair are setting a trend in Ireland, UK and other countries that the likes of PARC are now following. I am saddened that the industry is following this path, especially since many airlines are showing good profits I see no financial excuse for forcing the training budget onto pilots. It happens in no other industry I know of. I am also aware that Astreaus are offering blocks of line time of upto 500 hours. this equats (in my company) to approximately a years flying. Are you comfortable with this?

As for show casing, I will leave you think about it for a while. I am sorry if I have not made some points clear english is not my first language.

[Puritan]

Sorry for not responding sooner but – have only just got back from a 36 hour ‘bullet’ via LGW - CDG - JIB (Djibouti / East Africa) - CDG - LGW.

Captain Chuckles - Overall, you seem to be suggesting that I have changed my tune about SSTRs. However I strongly refute that suggestion and would challenge you to find any post made by me, and / or my alter ego CrashDive, that shows that I have ever said doing a SSTR is a dead sure thing and / or that it is a good idea - I never have and I doubt I ever will !

Nb. mrs glum – I’m still waiting for you to do the same too w.r.t. ‘bias’ !

Now taking each of your points in turn:

W.r.t. 'Interesting to see all the Astraeus/Bond employee's crawling out of the woodwork when there is a scent of discord.' ..... Err, ‘crawling out of the wordwork’, I hardly think so - more like 'in yer face and screaming the advice to any that will listen' !

W.r.t. ‘It is interesting that you used to think it was a huge gamble’…. Well I still do think it’s a huge gamble and, for the avoidance of doubt, let me say it again "The whole airline pilot wannabe process is a huge gamble right from its very start until its finish !"; Indeed, to make the point, there’s a bloomin’ great ‘sticky’ sitting as the first thread on this forum which I hope puts the position very succinctly ( wherein that is a reproduction of advice I wrote contained in a previous thread, following which many people – including senior members of both BALPA & the IPA - suggested that it should be placed in a prominent place because it accurately reflects the wannabe predicament and wherein I should also point out that it was not me who made it a ‘sticky’ - and wherein the orignator of this advice is mostly hamrah ).

W.r.t. ‘[I]interesting to remember a few years ago that a group of people who are now selling type ratings and have used PPRuNe to show case it all used to tell PPRuNe Seminars that buying a type rating is a Bad Idea’.... I think you’ll find that many of us wish that the drive towards SSTRs was not happening. Indeed, personally, I wish that the CAA / JAA would outlaw SSTR’s; Now there’s a thought, and it is one that I’ve suggested before ( but is one which would cause a different set of problems ).

'as you learn from incorrect SOp's’.... Uhm, it’s not so much ‘incorrect’ SOPs as the fact that SOPs tend to be ‘airline specific’ and so might not be relevant between differing airlines but, there again, SOPs ain’t exactly hard to learn, are they ?!

'and generally self funded rating guys usually have had short cuts in their training’.... Err, what on earth gives you that idea - we’re talking here about reputable TRTOs that include the likes of CTC, Bond, GECAT, FlightSafety Boeing / Alteon, are we not ?!

'How do you spell hypocrit?’.... How about ‘hypocrite’ ( which isn't a very nice thing to say about somebody, especially when it is not true ).

W.r.t. ‘yes, you may scream at regular intervals that there are no guarantees with it all, but when the interest rates go up and people can't afford to take out a second mortgage anymore to pay for the gamble of a SSTR’.... At any one moment there are several hundred wannabes out there, all of them are desperate for that first break into aviation, and some of them are very obviously prepared to spend a significant amount of money on a SSTR in the belief that this will help them get a foot on the ladder.
A good many of those SSTR folks have and will continue to fund this ‘gamble’ ( which is what it is <-- see, I’ve said it yet again ! ) through all manner of means, which might or might-not have anything to do with 2nd mortgages and the like, but with regards as to how much hock they want to get themselves into, that it is their choice to make as they’re the ones who must live with the consequences. On the flip-side, one might suppose that these people are at least fortunate to presently have such a plethora of choice about which TRTO to place their business with.

W.r.t. ‘it wont be long before Bond wont be able to subsidise Astreaus anymore.’.... In which case it is likely that Bond will probably focus upon the provision of type-rating training to candidates whom are funded / sponsored by airlines - which I hasten to add, is business area which Bond are already having a lot of success with ( which is hopefully a far more equitable use of training resources ) - but in such an event it will probably mean that some older wannabes are unlikely to obtain their airline pilot dream wherein airlines will want to maximise the return on their investment with younger folks.

W.r.t. hamrah 'now heading towards the end of your career'.... I would hardly think so, he's still a relatively young man.

For my own part, I’m a line-pilot with a company that happens to own a TRTO that sells type-ratings to those who 1). have the aptitude to pass it and 2). have the money to pay for it.
I don’t make the rules about this and neither, to a greater or lesser extent, does hamrah ( wherein, believe it or not, he has a board of directors that call the tune on much of this ).

Furthermore, I personally get no direct additional benefit from this TRTO other than the sense of pleasure I derive when I’m asked to help instruct certain parts of the ground school for those attending the type-rating course(s) and wherein I put heart and sole into trying to help these people get the maximum value from their outlay by imparting what knowledge I have upon 1) the specific subject in hand and 2) of the airline business in general; it’s the very least I can do for them and is my way of putting something back for the wannabes ( as well as through PPRuNe – and likewise for hamrah ).

In closure, a wise man once told me that "You must deal with the world as it is, not as you would wish it to be" and wherein hamrah’s words above are probably about as succinct as one can get, wherein it's all about supply and demand, and all the time there's a ready pool of people who're prepared to beggar & prostitute themselves ( read 'wannabe pilots are a dime a dozen' ) then the present trend for SSTR will continue - mostly because the 'bean counters' ( i.e. those who really run / control the airlines ) will not be able to resist the reduction in their airline training budget & expenditure.

[efis78]

I wasn't thinking on posting any replies in this topic, but some things said in here made me to.

First of all I'm the other pilot that did the type rating with the user A-3TWENTY. Everyting he sais it's true. The wonderfull part of the training was the part at BA's training facilities in Cranebank. The worst part....well Astreaus. First of all let me start by saying the we were the guinea pigs. Astreaus didn't hold a TR/TO approval for the A320 and they didn't let us know. We contacted them in late November/early December 2003 and they didn't tell us, what I believe, is a tiny important piece of information. We only got to know it when the CAA did a surprise check to one of our simulator sessions. Good honest ppl eh? Besides what was told by my colleague (wich is all true) let me tell you why I contacted Twinjet directly to do my base training... Because after all that we went trough (doing our training without FCOM's, it was BA that let us use their's, including doing special copies for us so we could take home and study, otherwise we wouldn't have any) when I started making arrangments to wire transfer the base training money, Astraeus didn't accept a fax confirmation from my bank in Lisbon about the money already beeing transfered. So, if it wasn't the excellent co-operation of Capt Graham Paddon (Capt I apologise for using your name in here) that did accept the fax, I wouldn't have done the base training and would miss the start of the ground course at the airline I'm currently flying with. You know what's good in all this?! It's the I actually thank Astreaus for having me contact directly with Cpt Paddon...... I saved alot of money by doing so! Thank you Astreaus

Ohhhh one little piece of information that maybe is important and maybe lets you know if Astreaus is more worried about you or your money.... In the FIRST contact with Astreaus in 2003, I specifically told them I didn't have my ATPL JAR theory exams and asked them if I still could do the course. The person to whom I was talking to then passed the phone over to the training manager for Astreaus, wich said to me that if I had the CPL with more than 100 PIC and my multi rating I could do it. Well can you imagine my face when I returned to Portugal and I was told I couldn't get my rating in my license unless I had those exams... Well to make a long story short, I even was suggested by the CAA licensing dpmt director to go to court against Astreaus....wich I'm still thinking of doing, as this all situation made me loose soemthing like 6/7 paychecks with the airline.

This said, I leave up to you to decide if you should or shouldn't do your training with this TRTO.

I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Cheers

[mrs glum]

I could reply about "bias" ,as you put it ! Do i need to ? The responses from others speaks for itself !

[Puritan]

mrs glum – w.r.t. ‘I could reply about "bias" ,as you put it !’; actually you were the person to first allege bias – not the other way around, so please do not try to distort the sequence of events or who’s said what.
and w.r.t. ‘Do i need to ?’; YES – I’d like to see you try.
and w.r.t. ‘The responses from others speaks for itself !’; wherein the +ve responses must also be valid, yes ?

All we can know for sure is that people will believe what they want to believe.

Getting back to ‘bias’ - the reason you will not ( and can not ) respond to my challenge is that you can't find any posts where I have said that taking the risk of doing a type rating is a good idea, and / or that doing it with certain of the more popular TRTO’s is likewise a good idea.
Instead, in your post (above) you’ve used the complaints of others to mask your own short-coming w.r.t. your inability to backup your accusation.

[mrs glum]

What is all that aggression about ? Italics and sloping figures ? Why ? I think you should change your "Ive only made a few posts " bit Tony . Because I think you have made a few more than that ! Your aggresive stance is interesting . As you said "all we can know for sure is that people will believe what they want to believe " ! I like it !
There is no smoke withut fire !

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Right this is getting tiresome.

Speculative self sponsored type ratings are a pretty desperate gamble - all pilots hate their existence - the sooner they die out again the better.

Bond/Astraeus are doing nothing wrong in offering a product to the market. Hopefully market conditions will change as 9/11 recedes into history. Speculative self sponsored type ratings were a feature of the last major recession in the early 90's when British Midland and others offered them on the 737 and the like.

Hostility about it is pointless.

Quite a lot of people have paid Bond quite a lot of money now for quite a long time. As far as I can recall there has only even been one major complainer on these forums. So that puts Bond ahead of pretty much any other FTO in the country!

Some days I think people are mental for spending £20k on a type rating with no job at the end. The next day I think - what the hell it works for some and you've got to get that first break somehow; if your flat has gone up £100k in 3 years then why not cash in and get ahead?

I - we - are all allowed to change our minds and opinions on topics here as we are:

Unpaid
Volunteers
Human
Moody

So lets not descend into quasi-courtroom But My Lord! On the twenty dum of June Nineteen Hundred and Something did you not state verily that...

Good luck to those that can and do take the gamble. For those that don't take consolation that plenty like you seem to be getting first jobs at the moment without the added expense.

Cheers


WWW

[Puritan]

Thanks for that WWW....

To help get back on track might I (re)say that ( Astraeus/Bond aside & imho ) a self-funded type-rating / SSTR is a risky proposition mostly due to the following reasons:

• It’s a substantial amount of money to ‘invest’ in oneself, for which there is little or no guarantee of subsequent employment ( which is similarly true of the whole of the professional pilot training process ).
• Which type-rating to do is something of a lottery, e.g. the B737 has, thus far, been flavour of the month, but maybe now the A320 family is in ascendance, i.e. who knows, can anybody tell me with any certainty which one somebody should pick ?
• Some people who start the type-rating never manage to complete it, i.e. it’s a step too far for them at this stage in their aviation career, i.e. there are failures ( but it’s a bit like cancer, i.e. nobody really wants to talk about it ).
• Having a jet type-rating on your license is likely to preclude offers of employment from turbo-prop operators ( as they’ll surmise that you’ll be off if / when the offer of a jet job comes along ).
• All training providers ( from trial lesson upwards ) up to and including TRTOs and airlines, are in it for the money / profit – there is very little altruism out there, and as such luck, and who you know, probably have more to do with getting a job than anything else; and of course…
• There are no guarantees with any of it !

That said, should somebody decide that a SSTR is a risk they would like to take, there’s seemingly a plethora of TRTO’s out there who’d be glad to part them from their money.

The better TRTO’s will at least put potential candidates through an airline type selection process, e.g. psychometric tests, interviews and simulator assessments. They do this as much to protect themselves from high failure rates as they do to protect the potential student from making a financial blunder. The less scrupulous TRTO’s will just take the money.

Some might be interested to know that the supposed rivalries that some would have exist between the various TRTO’s do not exist in practice – indeed they often share resources ( particularly simulators ). Also, a good many of the instructors are often freelance TRI’s & TRE’s and are not, as such, direct employees of any particular TRTO ( which is not as bad as it might seem, as you’ll see in a minute ).

Across the industry a lot of effort is put in to ensuring that type-ratings are delivered to a uniform standard, regardless of which TRTO is providing the course. The provision and required content of a particular type-rating will be laid down in each TRTO’s training manual wherein this is overseen by the folks from the regulatory authorities / CAA.
Similarly, to be an instructor you must first complete a Core Course ( which teaches you how to teach ), following which, to become a TRI you have to complete various other courses ( as well as hold a command and have experience on the type you intend to instruct upon ). Following that, to become a TRE you have to be a TRI and are assessed as an examiner by the CAA as part of ‘standardisation’ process ( there’s a bit more to this all than that, but I hope this gives you an outline ).
All-in-all there’s a terrific amount of pressure on trainers / TRTO’s to ensure that the standards are uniform – across the industry.

Accordingly, if you think about it, a type-rating course undertaken at TRTO (A) should be pretty similar to the type-rating you can undertake at TRTO (B) down the road – and if that’s not so then the CAA training standards department would be on the case in short order.

From a commercial point of view, I think it would be true to say that all TRTO’s can (and do) wax lyrical at their success rates ( which hopefully are high ). Likewise, TRTO’s might try to influence people to do a type-rating with their organisation because they say that they’ve got contacts within xyz airline which might help ease your way into employment, what with a nudge and a wink and all that.
Now don’t get me wrong, nothing breeds success like success itself, and so if a TRTO can help get you a job then it’s only fair to think that they will – but, at the outset, there are unlikely to be any guarantees of that, if only because there are no guarantees that the candidate will pass the type-rating.

I suppose that, at the end of the day, so long as one gets the type-rating in ones license that one set out to achieve ( all risks aside ), quite where one’s done it ( e.g. Alteon, Astraeus/Bond, CTC, GECAT, Parc, etc ) is, and should be, a bit of an irrelevance ( mostly due to the standardisation reasons mentioned previously ).

Of course if an airline is recruiting and its advert says that ‘only xyz type-rated candidates will be considered’ then if one has an xyz type-rating then one at least meets with the criteria to apply for the job.... but having xyz type-rating still does not mean that you’ll necessarily get that job.

[jamestkirk]

I did not think thank my original post on page one would spark such a varied response.

I am dead set against paying for a type rating, but understand that this may be the way forward. And, as said before, there are no surities in any of it.

A friend of mine has just got their first job on turbo-props. This is probably down to her being professional, persistant and the right character. And/or is the market starting to pick up in a way that a SSTR is not as essential as we (new, low hour guys) believe it is.

Still very un-decided about it.

If any new low hour etc., done the SSTR and actually landed a job specifically from that, please let me know.

Thanks

JTK

[haughtney1]

Puritan........Take a bow buddy......Im really pleased to read your last response; honest..thorough..no BS, and to the point (no I'm not blowin sunshine..I just appreciate common sense and honesty).
Now im off to work in my shiney t/prop...ready to pick my way through cold front CB's at FL220

cheers

H

[salapilot]

Most of you will be aware that Astreaus ran a scheme in conjunction with PPRUNE just after Sep 11th, which gave 5 wannabes a great step on the ladder. The likes of Hamrah and Danny indicated that a similar scheme would be coming into place sooner rather than later and indeed may involve other airlines. Sadly, for whatever reason, this never happened. I strongly believe it would benefit all, if something was to happen again. The cynical side of me thinks, well why should they....they have an endless amount of wannabes throwing money at them for type ratings, so why bother?

Whether you agree with the paying for a rating or not (which I don’t unless there would be some guarantee of a job), Astreaus are in a competitive market, and by all accounts are one of the better companies in this area driven by demand for such ratings. I was told by Hamrah at the time , that the scheme run by them did not gain any profit for the company, but equally did not loose them any either, as the majority of the money came from the candidates taking a small salary for a period of 6 months.

I would urge Hamrah and Danny to please consider running this again.

sp

[InFinRetirement]

Very interesting thread, and perhaps time for me to step in for a little updating and the straightening of a few curves.

salapilot you are right. In conjunction with Astraeus and the PPRuNe Fund, which I am sure you know I run, we ran a scheme so that five cadets could be selected for training and ultimately be offered a job with Astraeus. It was a fantastic idea and it worked well. All five cadets are now performing very well and enjoying their life on the flight deck with Astraeus, although one of them has moved to another airline. It was a resounding success for both Astraeus and the Fund. The cadets have made, and continue to make, a monetary contribution to the fund as part of the arrangement we all came to get them on their way.

In regards to a repeat of this with another airline it is at this moment in time improbable but would, in any event, cost a great deal more than it did with Astraeus who were very generous to the project, and gave it magnificent support. That it might be run again has not hitherto been discussed, but right now the plan is to get people on the first step of the ladder to an ATPL.....................

..........so the fund is fully engaged in getting 5 people to Bristol Ground School very soon to begin their ATPL distance learning courses which BGS so graciously donated to PPRuNe. We will also send these candidates for the GAPAN aptitude test which the fund will pay for. The interviews to select those candidates are expected to take place this month. Following this, the first scheme, we will continue to operate them. This will mean that the fund will be paying a much larger sum and while we plan to always have an arrangement in place for the original financial help, we do intend to get it back as soon as a candidate gets full employment.

In addition to the above the fund will, this year, support GAPAN's own PPL sponsorship scheme by donating £1000 for each of up to three of their usual four sponsorships. By being associated with GAPAN in this way, it adequately demonstrates PPRuNe's commitment to help wannabes onto the very first step in a flying career and will enhance our association with GAPAN..

Now just a brief word about type ratings. The fund cannot afford them. It is as simple as that. Whatever we do we do not have a bottomless pit. The fund builds from income from the likes of the scheme with Astraeus, the GatBash, the sale of badges, of merchandise and the sale of TSR2 prints. Some donations are also made to the fund from time to time from a few generous people who have the same view I had when I started the fund. 'We want to put something back into aviation.' We even have three people who have made regular monthly donations to the fund since it started. A marvellous gesture on their part wouldn’t you say. Anyway, the work I do in raising funds is hard work, but I don't give a jot so long as I and my colleagues get some people into a career in flying or aviation.

The fund is worth over £27,000 plus stock at this moment in time and will steadily increase for the next 8 months. After that, it is very much a question of income from sales, auctions and anything else I can turn into cash. But.......it is now going to be used and used sensibly and purposefully for the sole benefit of the wannabes.

That's it, no more to add so its time to get some worthy folk on their way.

Happy New Year to them - and to all wannabes.


IFR

[Tosh McCaber]

Without wishing to dip more than my big toe into this discussion (argument?), can anyone mention any other profession where potential employees will have to spend over £80,000 (or more)training to obtain a job as a pilot, which then result in a fairly average salary, compared with the rest of industry, with a very uncertain future? After tax and loan interest, it will take a long time for a pilot to catch up with your colleagues and friends salaries. At the end of the day, you have to be able earn enough to live.

[salapilot]

Thankyou for that infin

Whilst no one doubts the excellent work the fund has done, led by yourself infin, I would like to give my opinion, if I may, on what the fund should be spending the money on. I think if you ask most wannabes what the hardest thing about becoming a Pilot is, the likely answer would probably be finding that first job. Of course the flying training is a challenge, but with the right attitude(not to mention finances), you will get through.

Lets face it ,the ground school is probably the "cheapest" part of the training, but this forum alone highlights that getting a job is extremely difficult. In my humble opinion therefore, would it not be more appropriate to channel the money in this direction? (not neccessairly paying for a type rating). The Astreaus scheme was clearly an excellent example of this and would be very sad indeed ,if this was not repeated.

sp

[InFinRetirement]

If only it were that simple.

would it not be more appropriate to channel the money in this direction?

To do what exactly? The fund is worth as we speak under half of one F(ATPL).

And you forget one thing (apparently). That each of the cadets had a F(ATPL) which they had paid for themselves. That was the starting point for their selection. Rather a longer way forward than we can step I'm afraid. We MUST think of those who need to get onto the ladder this time at least.

The nuts and bolts is that we are committed to the wannabes and we will help them get an ATPL. No matter how 'small' you think the cost is. When we have to pay for the courses, which will be the next round, it will cost the fund over £10,000.

We cannot do more, certainly not at this stage.

You could always be a PPRuNe fundraiser....

IFR

[salapilot]

My Point IFR was that the money be chanelled into similar schemes that was run by yourself and Astreaus. For example,

1- We see all these new small outfits popping up offering wannabes help with interviews, why not help towards the cost of that

2- A wannabe has a sim check, but may struggle with finances to go and have a practice, again some help and possible financial assistance could be looked at.

3- A wannaabe has an IR renewal again, may struggle to pay for this.

The practical details of course would have to be ironed out, like selection etc, but the point is that it's something different

I dont think you will ever have problems wannabes joining the rest of us, but if you concentrate on this too much , you may be creating a larger pool of qualified wannabes, if not much is being done on the other end to help them with jobs. That's why the Astreaus scheme was great.

I was fortunate enough to be part of the scheme and had the pleasure to meet you IFR, but it never worked out for me, however i was grateful and made a contribution to the fund ( haven't done for a while mind you, but i'm sure we could rectify that !). As for being a fundraiser, I would love to help out !

sp