Why Are Integrated FATPLs Preferred?
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Why Are Integrated FATPLs Preferred?
Why does having done an integrated course make you so much more appealing to airlines?
Most of the people who do them have rich Daddys who foot the heafty bill,have less than 200 hours on completion and are barely old enough to drive a car.
I understand the benefits, continuity and structure being two big ones but all things being equal ( sim check etc ) the Integrated guy would get the job.
Why is it not the other way around? Why woudnt they take the person whos worked hard to pay for each stage,who has shown more committment and determination and not had it all handed to him by the Ops Controller on duty.
As a self improver I am biased of course but I still dont get it.
What do you think?
Most of the people who do them have rich Daddys who foot the heafty bill,have less than 200 hours on completion and are barely old enough to drive a car.
I understand the benefits, continuity and structure being two big ones but all things being equal ( sim check etc ) the Integrated guy would get the job.
Why is it not the other way around? Why woudnt they take the person whos worked hard to pay for each stage,who has shown more committment and determination and not had it all handed to him by the Ops Controller on duty.
As a self improver I am biased of course but I still dont get it.
What do you think?
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I'm not so sure everyone doing an intergrated course has a rich daddy, maybe they were extra clever and got the initial job that i couldn't that payed the right money!
If my dad had offered to pay for intergrated then i would have jumped at it, but as to wether i would be a better airline prospect or pilot who knows.
I've payed for everything myself and am proud of the fact, i'm proud thay i've instructed to the best of my ability for a few years and KNOW that i'm a better pilot etc for it.
I have found a marked difference in the quality of intergrated to the self improver, when checking the two out for solo hire and with only small section tested i'd send my kids with the self improver anyday.
The self improver was a less aloof pilot with a better general knowledge of aviation, and not concerned with how they look or some irrelevant stock market price of an airline. At one school i trained at an intergrated pilot with a CPL and 200 hours ooohhhh decided that after 2 years without a reply from an airline, he might as well instruct. He never spoke to any other of the pilots who self improved, and made it quite obvious he felt himself better and above socialising with them.
If i had the money would i have done an intergrated course, YES.
Would i be a better commercial pilot, i'm not sure. Lets just hope for everyone, self improver and intergrated that selection is based upon the relevant tests and sectors decided by chief pilots.
That decision i can accept, for good or for bad
If my dad had offered to pay for intergrated then i would have jumped at it, but as to wether i would be a better airline prospect or pilot who knows.
I've payed for everything myself and am proud of the fact, i'm proud thay i've instructed to the best of my ability for a few years and KNOW that i'm a better pilot etc for it.
I have found a marked difference in the quality of intergrated to the self improver, when checking the two out for solo hire and with only small section tested i'd send my kids with the self improver anyday.
The self improver was a less aloof pilot with a better general knowledge of aviation, and not concerned with how they look or some irrelevant stock market price of an airline. At one school i trained at an intergrated pilot with a CPL and 200 hours ooohhhh decided that after 2 years without a reply from an airline, he might as well instruct. He never spoke to any other of the pilots who self improved, and made it quite obvious he felt himself better and above socialising with them.
If i had the money would i have done an intergrated course, YES.
Would i be a better commercial pilot, i'm not sure. Lets just hope for everyone, self improver and intergrated that selection is based upon the relevant tests and sectors decided by chief pilots.
That decision i can accept, for good or for bad
Last edited by tonker; 24th Jun 2004 at 19:48.
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I don't think these days that they do prefer one type or the other.
And if you have got through HR sifting the CV's it won't make a blind bit of difference at interview which route you went down.
And i think you will find that just as many companys will when given a 50-50 choice go for the modular than intergrated.
MJ
And if you have got through HR sifting the CV's it won't make a blind bit of difference at interview which route you went down.
And i think you will find that just as many companys will when given a 50-50 choice go for the modular than intergrated.
MJ
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Integrated are not preferred at all by the airlines. The cold hard facts are that your are more likely to get the job with an integrated licence because when airlines approach schools for suitable candidates e.g. Oxford and Cabair among others, then the school is going to put forward integrated students because they have history with the school and it will help the stats when they say 4 in 10 of our grads get employed by airlines. I have seen this happen, the modular guys never get a look in.
On the open market though when a pile of c.v's arrive on an HR desk it won't make any difference what so ever.
On the open market though when a pile of c.v's arrive on an HR desk it won't make any difference what so ever.
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Homerj
It makes me mad when it is automatically assumed that those who have gone down the integrated route have rich Daddy's and, at best, are just about ok pilots. This sort of remark has been posted on many occasions and I have resisted commenting on it until now as I didn't want to fuel the integrated v modular argument, but enough is enough. I certainly don't have a rich Dad and I do not come from a rich family. I worked hard as an air traffic control assistant and when off duty worked in a bar to help save towards my integrated course. I was then lucky enough to be able to borrow the rest of the required funds but will be in debt for years.
Reading the many posts on this subject, I believe that those going down the modular route also probably have to obtain a large amount of funding through loans etc, maybe they even have parents who are prepared to assist them along the way, so what is different?
I chose to go down the integrated route, not because I thought it would make me a better pilot, or make it easier for me to get a job because I didn't believe that for a moment. I did it because it suited my personality best. I wanted and needed the companionship of like minded people in the same environment. I enjoy having fun and a good time and at the same time the school gave me the discipline I needed for study.
I have at last learnt, which I never did whilst taking 'A' Levels etc, how important self discipline is. I now have the right attitude which will help me progress further with my career and to undertake all the required study that will be needed in the future. In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that it has only just begun (just hope there is time for the odd party or two). I admire people who have gone down the modular route as I believe I can understand the pressure they would be under, studying whilst holding down a full time job; that has to be so tough. I am not sure that I could have done that.
I am aware of at least a couple of airlines that have taken on low houred guys from both the integrated and modular routes. I believe that it all depends on how you sell yourself on the dreaded application form. It doesn't matter how you got that very expensive bit of paper called a licence, as long as you have got it.
Slightly off topic I know, but forget the route of obtaining your (F)ATPL for a moment, we all need to think about trying to avoid paying for type ratings because adding that expense to original training loans just makes the cost of our chosen career absolutely ludicrous and probably beyond the means of many. It is not right, so let's hope the perceived upturn in the industry is the start of the downfall of this further terrible financial burden.
Ah that is good, I am not mad anymore, so perhaps I will be off for a bit of light refreshment!
hi5
It makes me mad when it is automatically assumed that those who have gone down the integrated route have rich Daddy's and, at best, are just about ok pilots. This sort of remark has been posted on many occasions and I have resisted commenting on it until now as I didn't want to fuel the integrated v modular argument, but enough is enough. I certainly don't have a rich Dad and I do not come from a rich family. I worked hard as an air traffic control assistant and when off duty worked in a bar to help save towards my integrated course. I was then lucky enough to be able to borrow the rest of the required funds but will be in debt for years.
Reading the many posts on this subject, I believe that those going down the modular route also probably have to obtain a large amount of funding through loans etc, maybe they even have parents who are prepared to assist them along the way, so what is different?
I chose to go down the integrated route, not because I thought it would make me a better pilot, or make it easier for me to get a job because I didn't believe that for a moment. I did it because it suited my personality best. I wanted and needed the companionship of like minded people in the same environment. I enjoy having fun and a good time and at the same time the school gave me the discipline I needed for study.
I have at last learnt, which I never did whilst taking 'A' Levels etc, how important self discipline is. I now have the right attitude which will help me progress further with my career and to undertake all the required study that will be needed in the future. In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that it has only just begun (just hope there is time for the odd party or two). I admire people who have gone down the modular route as I believe I can understand the pressure they would be under, studying whilst holding down a full time job; that has to be so tough. I am not sure that I could have done that.
I am aware of at least a couple of airlines that have taken on low houred guys from both the integrated and modular routes. I believe that it all depends on how you sell yourself on the dreaded application form. It doesn't matter how you got that very expensive bit of paper called a licence, as long as you have got it.
Slightly off topic I know, but forget the route of obtaining your (F)ATPL for a moment, we all need to think about trying to avoid paying for type ratings because adding that expense to original training loans just makes the cost of our chosen career absolutely ludicrous and probably beyond the means of many. It is not right, so let's hope the perceived upturn in the industry is the start of the downfall of this further terrible financial burden.
Ah that is good, I am not mad anymore, so perhaps I will be off for a bit of light refreshment!
hi5
Last edited by hifive11; 25th Jun 2004 at 07:48.
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Got to agree with hifive11 here. Yes I borrowed a lot of money off my parents (why you have to use the "rich Daddy" line is beyond me 
), but I have to pay it all back. Suggesting that integrated students have less commitment and determination is just plain rubbish. I worked my nuts off on my course as did most of my friends and we are still finding it hard to secure that elusive first job.
By asking:
"Why is it not the other way around? Why woudnt they take the person whos worked hard to pay for each stage,who has shown more committment and determination and not had it all handed to him by the Ops Controller on duty"
you almost come across as feeling as though you deserve the job. As has been mentioned before many times on this board it doesn`t matter how you get the licence, the airlines don`t care. It comes down to how you perform in the interview and whether they reckon they can sit next to you for a long day and get on well.
Anyway, hifive11s post is more eloquent than mine but it really grips my sh!t when people lay into integrated students like that.
Tin hat on now,
Cheers.
), but I have to pay it all back. Suggesting that integrated students have less commitment and determination is just plain rubbish. I worked my nuts off on my course as did most of my friends and we are still finding it hard to secure that elusive first job.By asking:
"Why is it not the other way around? Why woudnt they take the person whos worked hard to pay for each stage,who has shown more committment and determination and not had it all handed to him by the Ops Controller on duty"
you almost come across as feeling as though you deserve the job. As has been mentioned before many times on this board it doesn`t matter how you get the licence, the airlines don`t care. It comes down to how you perform in the interview and whether they reckon they can sit next to you for a long day and get on well.
Anyway, hifive11s post is more eloquent than mine but it really grips my sh!t when people lay into integrated students like that.
Tin hat on now,
Cheers.
Last edited by schooner; 25th Jun 2004 at 13:29.
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Maybe its because some bitter pratt who doesn't know diddley squat about the market opens his mouth and lets his belly rumble, thereby tarnishing all modular students with the same brush. Quite sensibly, most employers wouldn't let people like that loose with a bogbrush, let alone an aeroplane.
And since when were self-funding integrated students not self-improvers? Please define self-improver in today's market.
Since the old CAP509 courses went, and integrated sponsorships largely bit the dust, I think you'll find that today's modular course is structured almost identically to the integrated course in terms of groundschool, with appropriate changes to the flying programme to reflect the higher starting hours of the modular student. The only real difference is one of cost and timescale. Very few integrated students are in the fortunate position of having anybody but themselves pay for their training.
If you took your head out your arse long enough to have a proper look around, you'll see plenty of older students on integrated courses as they feel that they do not necessarily have time on their side and need to complete quickly.
Quite sensibly, most employers wouldn't let people like that loose with a bogbrush, let alone an aeroplane.And since when were self-funding integrated students not self-improvers? Please define self-improver in today's market.
Since the old CAP509 courses went, and integrated sponsorships largely bit the dust, I think you'll find that today's modular course is structured almost identically to the integrated course in terms of groundschool, with appropriate changes to the flying programme to reflect the higher starting hours of the modular student. The only real difference is one of cost and timescale. Very few integrated students are in the fortunate position of having anybody but themselves pay for their training.
If you took your head out your arse long enough to have a proper look around, you'll see plenty of older students on integrated courses as they feel that they do not necessarily have time on their side and need to complete quickly.
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I agree with hifive11 too. Unfortunately it doesn't mean I'm not envious. Having been born with a wooden spoon in my mouth I am trying to get into this game late. Maybe a little too late. However, everybody owes it to themselves to utilise and make the MOST of any advantage they have; be that brains, brawn or money! If you have all three then at least you probably have no friends...life and soul of the party too...oh well 
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I too have heard that airlines prefer integrated students more than modular students.
I don't really understand why! I am currently on a modular route and am about to finish my ATPL groundschool. I know that in both routes everybody has to pass the same course take the same exams.
I have spoken to a number of people training using both integrated and modular and it seems it really is down to whichever route suits the individual student.
I also know for a fact that just because students choose the integrated route it doea not mean under any circumstance that they have not had to work as hard because believe me if you told that to the integrated students right now they would go f@"#ing crazy!!
Hopefully times are changing for us modular students and please remember this is from what I have heard from other pilots working for the major carriers. How true it is now i don't know, but i hope not very!
All i now have to say is,
DOWN TO SELF FUNDED TYPE RATINGS LET'S START LETTING THE AIRLINES PAY!!
surfer
I don't really understand why! I am currently on a modular route and am about to finish my ATPL groundschool. I know that in both routes everybody has to pass the same course take the same exams.
I have spoken to a number of people training using both integrated and modular and it seems it really is down to whichever route suits the individual student.
I also know for a fact that just because students choose the integrated route it doea not mean under any circumstance that they have not had to work as hard because believe me if you told that to the integrated students right now they would go f@"#ing crazy!!
Hopefully times are changing for us modular students and please remember this is from what I have heard from other pilots working for the major carriers. How true it is now i don't know, but i hope not very!
All i now have to say is,
DOWN TO SELF FUNDED TYPE RATINGS LET'S START LETTING THE AIRLINES PAY!!
surfer
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I too have heard that airlines prefer integrated students more than modular students. I don't really understand why!
A non-aviation example: Why does the civil service prefer Oxbridge grads...because that is the system that raised those at the top in public service (by and large).
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Hi Five , I said most of them, of course there are exceptions.
But look,If I had a rich Daddy , id have done an integrated course myself.
Why do people get annoyed if you say they have money.Big deal, If i was you id be happy, not get pi**ed off
Also I never said modular training was better.
But , and again this is a fact , it takes determination and hard work to go the integrated route.But it takes that bit more to go modular,wheather you like it or not.
Mad Jock, didnt Ba Citiexpress in their latest ad for pilots make reference to having an integrated course if you didnt have the hour requirement?Theyre not the only ones,even if they dont specify it in the ad.
Witchdoctor , you are talking out of your ass.
But look,If I had a rich Daddy , id have done an integrated course myself.
Why do people get annoyed if you say they have money.Big deal, If i was you id be happy, not get pi**ed off
Also I never said modular training was better.
But , and again this is a fact , it takes determination and hard work to go the integrated route.But it takes that bit more to go modular,wheather you like it or not.
Mad Jock, didnt Ba Citiexpress in their latest ad for pilots make reference to having an integrated course if you didnt have the hour requirement?Theyre not the only ones,even if they dont specify it in the ad.
Witchdoctor , you are talking out of your ass.
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homerj
I suggest you read my post again, I feel you may have missed or misread a few points.
The problem is not the money comments, it is the sarcasm with which this subject is broached. It is juvenile and uncalled for. We are all adults trying to go forward, we should be supportive of each other and not spend time berating those who chose a different route to the one you did, whether you chose it out of necessity or not.
As has been said a million times, in the end, these days, it is how the other person sharing the same flight deck as you, can get on with you. At the moment you seem a bit antagonistic which does not make for ease of communication, or one feels, introducing the required relaxed and friendly atmosphere necessary within the confines of such a small space.
There is also a good thread in this forum entitled "Is this discrimination". It is informative and if you haven't already seen it, may answer some of your questions in relation to airline recruitment. Both scroggs and www entered the fray. scroggs took the trouble to write to airlines on behalf of us wannabes concerning the subject, and posted the results or in fact, in the main unfortunately, lack of them.
hi5
Edited for spelling - hope I haven't missed any!
I suggest you read my post again, I feel you may have missed or misread a few points.
The problem is not the money comments, it is the sarcasm with which this subject is broached. It is juvenile and uncalled for. We are all adults trying to go forward, we should be supportive of each other and not spend time berating those who chose a different route to the one you did, whether you chose it out of necessity or not.
As has been said a million times, in the end, these days, it is how the other person sharing the same flight deck as you, can get on with you. At the moment you seem a bit antagonistic which does not make for ease of communication, or one feels, introducing the required relaxed and friendly atmosphere necessary within the confines of such a small space.
There is also a good thread in this forum entitled "Is this discrimination". It is informative and if you haven't already seen it, may answer some of your questions in relation to airline recruitment. Both scroggs and www entered the fray. scroggs took the trouble to write to airlines on behalf of us wannabes concerning the subject, and posted the results or in fact, in the main unfortunately, lack of them.
hi5
Edited for spelling - hope I haven't missed any!
Last edited by hifive11; 25th Jun 2004 at 20:39.
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I think you should all get your ear to the ground and understand that it dosn't matter a toss these days what route you did.
You have excatly the same license which ever route you did and any ops monkey that looks at your CV will not have a clue which method you did by looking at your hours.
If the intergrated boys want to kid themselves it gets them a push start just smile and humour them. 1 month after qualifiying they are in the same boat as the modular boys when OAT and the rest put them on the back burner when the next course comes out. But of course they have an additional 40k loan to repay unless daddy payed it.
And as for BA city express they will take any hairy arsed pilot who is willing to live in inverness. Apparently nobody wants to work up here even if they get put straight onto jet which basically brings home to me that nobody down south has the hunger for the job. All the FO's that i know up here were all self improvers. In fact now 2 of them are captains on my fleet.
Things that have come across to me after working are.
1. post code
2. currency
3. personal crap
The rest is all bollocks and stop kidding yourself that paying and extra 40k is going to get you a job because it won't.
mj
And the differnece between paying 5k for a fi rating and the extra for an intergrated course....
Just watch an FI in a manual sim compared to a 160 hour intergrated it would be worth selling tickets for the amusment factor
You have excatly the same license which ever route you did and any ops monkey that looks at your CV will not have a clue which method you did by looking at your hours.
If the intergrated boys want to kid themselves it gets them a push start just smile and humour them. 1 month after qualifiying they are in the same boat as the modular boys when OAT and the rest put them on the back burner when the next course comes out. But of course they have an additional 40k loan to repay unless daddy payed it.
And as for BA city express they will take any hairy arsed pilot who is willing to live in inverness. Apparently nobody wants to work up here even if they get put straight onto jet which basically brings home to me that nobody down south has the hunger for the job. All the FO's that i know up here were all self improvers. In fact now 2 of them are captains on my fleet.
Things that have come across to me after working are.
1. post code
2. currency
3. personal crap
The rest is all bollocks and stop kidding yourself that paying and extra 40k is going to get you a job because it won't.
mj
And the differnece between paying 5k for a fi rating and the extra for an intergrated course....
Just watch an FI in a manual sim compared to a 160 hour intergrated it would be worth selling tickets for the amusment factor
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Despite what BACX put in the ad and on the application form, they will accept applications from modular students as they openly admit there is no difference between the two.
As I said earlier homoj, you haven't a clue about the market. And why are you looking at my ass?
As I said earlier homoj, you haven't a clue about the market. And why are you looking at my ass?
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As far as I can tell, the only difference at Oxford between their integrated and modular students is that the Career Services Department will tend to only put CV's forward to airlines of their integrated students.
Having spent the past 15 months there I have met many integrated and modular students and from what we have talked about, the training seems to be very similar indeed.
Apart from that, I think that Mad Jock has hit it on the head a couple of pages back on this thread.
Craggs
Having spent the past 15 months there I have met many integrated and modular students and from what we have talked about, the training seems to be very similar indeed.
Apart from that, I think that Mad Jock has hit it on the head a couple of pages back on this thread.
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Recently read with interest about 4 weeks ago, about bmi regional only recruiting pilots who had completed the integrated course at oxford. This posting was deleted within a couple of hours. WHY?
Probably true methinks
rgds
mideast
Probably true methinks
rgds
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I know of one student who got on to BMI's Embraer up at Aberdeen just 2 weeks after the IR completion. This was May; they wanted a handful of CV's and they met the criteria. Another has gone on to 757's at Thompson and another has just been accepted at Ryanair....
Craggs
Craggs