Stapleford and a 737 rating, benefits?

[benjamin1981]

I am considering undertaking the Stapleford and Astraeus 0 – 737 course. I would just like to know if anyone could alleviate a few fears I have. Assuming I am successful and obtain my fATPL, how much of an advantage would a 737 rating be? I can obviously see the benefits for a 737 role, however, would this restrict me to only applying for 737 jobs? Would I be better off stopping at the fATPL role and being able to apply (hopefully) to a wider range of jobs?

[PPRuNe Towers]

There will be as many opinions as there are posters Ben,

This is just one: By the time you qualify what what will the market be like? If you want to fly in Europe the 737 pushes you towards the world of lo-cost. Will their markets be sated 18 months down the line when you are hoping to be entering line training? Countering that though will be turnover of pilots who can't take that life any more.

My opinion is irrespective of value for money or the quality of course provided. Demand for experienced pilots outside of the States is immense and approaching crisis point. 500 alone for two companies in the Far East needed this year. However, another SARs outbreak tomorrow or another major terrorist attack can change this in short order. I think wannabees have to seriously consider a jet rating as an expensive potential trap whatever the state of the market as more and more training companies jump on the bandwagon.

This reply Ben is addressed to the folks, like you, thinking of doing it. Those who've already done it or are in the process of doing it are having mixed fortunes. Whatever way you look at it you are considering paying for and joining an utterly artificial bulge of 737 folks already chasing first, and far more importantly, second properly contracted full time jobs.

You are lumbered with the state of one, artificially supplied, aircraft type in the pilots' market rather than the real, overall demand for pilots with a full JAA licence.

Caveat Emptor

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[RowleyUK]

Interesting point Rob!

[benjamin1981]

Thank You

Thank you for taking the time to give such a detailed reply Rob. I know these replys are all opinions, however, given my situation; 22 years old, looking to self sponsor, if you were in my shoes, would you stop at paying 25k to Stapleford and forgo the option of paying another 25k for 737 rating in the understanding you will look more employable to a greater variety of airlines.

You mentioned becoming trapped which I feel is the danger of such a course. I have considered courses with Oxford and Cabair, and a 25k course with Stapleford appeals to be a great deal more from a self funding perspective. My initial reaction however was to think a 737 rating would be an added bonus?

To complete an fATPL course for 25k would be much better given my situation, I am just little concerened about how 'employable' I will be at the finish of such a course. I know it is all very speculative and the market is changing but given the current trend of the market and the predicted number of pilots retiring, is it a fair assumption to say if I complete a course in 2-3 years, I have a fair chance of securing an airline position (assuming all is good in the market place)

[K2SkyRider]

Options

I too am considering all these options, namely:

1. SFC 0-fATPL + B737 TR + 100hrs line £60K cash
2. OAT APP 0-fATPL £60K cash
3. CTC-McAlpine Cadet Scheme £60K bond

Any comments on OAT APP Vs SFC without TR? Financially it's about a £30K difference.

Any comments on B737 TR Vs A320 TR?

I think a few of us are going to the SFC open evening on 3rd April. Would be interesting to see if you can opt for an Airbus TR rather than a B737.

Cheers,

K2

[MJR]

I would seriously doubt that anyone who has never flown an aircraft before can be qualified to make a decision on spending the cash for a zero -737 type-rating. How can you possibly be sure you actually like the idea of flying for a living? Surely this is a high risk for someone with no flying experience. I assume the above mentioned organisation insists on you passing a class 1 medical before you start?

cheers


MJR

[PPRuNe Towers]

Ben, if I were in your shoes I'd fight tooth and nail for the basic 25K and get them to contractually write in the option of the add on at that price. You are talking about appearing at the other end of the training tunnel into an entirely different world and pilots' market. Why tie your chequebook and debts to the unknown??

K2 gives the question that should be on everyone's lips. Given the bandwagon effect of the organisations hitting this market their spider senses should be tingling as they realise that between them we will reach [f]ATPL B737 typed saturation point about, err, 10 minutes ago??? It's for them to judge which other types might be marketable to both you and the companies they would be hoping to place you at. Problem is they will judge it as part of their individual business plan and not the holistic view of the total number of type rated rookies [i.e you and your loans]being dumped on the market.

Thing is - there's only the Airbus as an significant alternative beginners' jet so how long before that market saturates as every FTO feels that, to remain a 'major' player, they have to jump on this runaway train. Probably teaching you to suck eggs here but did you know that the senior management pilots who will eventually be interviewing you learned at FTO's that just had a clockwork desktop sim? A hand cranked Frasca no less and they're damned good pilots who passed their IR's just fine.

As with all business there's a strong element of fashion meets the Emperor's New Clothes at work. According to the 'top' schools you have to have a mind numbingly expensive sim to train - umm, no you don't actually. The expensive sim is marketing eye candy. It does not and never will pay its way because a decently utilised airline sim works 6,000 plus hours per year.

Dedicated instructors, a good desktop device and servicable aircraft are what really you need. The money saved makes a very mellow instructor and a thoroughly serviceable twin. Capital costs are so low that you offer the desktop sim out of hours for free.

As time goes on we find it never changes. Best quality and best value for money comes from mid sized or small outfits with a low public profile and huge word of mouth presence.

I promise you - it never changes from one flying generation to the next. Marketeers rely on a you being slaves to brand names and gloss. Bit of a pity really because once you're qualified and working you'll realise no one gives a stuff about which schools you used. That is the only real truth, it's all just a game to get the licence.

Regards
Rob

PS We feel much the same way as MJR does. The PPRuNe fund will in future be used for those entering pro training but a class one and basic flying experience (gliding, microlighting, light aircraft)will be required for consideration.

[rotormad]

Well it's all very interesting.......I've been to Stapleford and had a 'chat' with the relevant people their, both about the ATPL course and the 737 type course. I have a couple of things to add which i think need addressing;

1. Doing a type rating is invariably extremley risky and one should not go into it thinking that they will get a job at the end of it, it just aint going to happen. Will it improve your chances of employment..well that's the question??

2. If your doing the full 0-737 course you have to undergo a selection procedure but if you have already started then you don't. The big question is how are they going to vet the potential modular pilots wanting to do the 737 course. I got the impression that there wasn't going to be any and if you had the cash you could do the course, but that just can't be the case. The bottom line is that a proportion of the people wanting to do this course will just not be able to complete it, so Astraeus at some point must run some kind of selection to trim down the no- hopers. Sounds very harsh i know, and i might well be one, but to put someone in the right seat who can't cut the mustard is just a liability.

3. How many people do Astraeus intend to put through on this course, the pressure on a training Captain is significant and if the number of people going to the open evening, around 60 at present, is any indication surely that amount is just to great. They don't operate a huge fleet and the type course is for the 300 so there's no way that amount of students could go through. Every flight would have to have a Training Captain a type rating guy and a FO acting as the safety pilot, 3 crew, just doesn't sound right!!!!

What i'm getting at is that although it sounds like it's open to everyone, it can't be, it just cant. If it was everyone would do it, they've got to have a cut off at some point, some limit or base requirment of competance....i don't know, what do you think?????

R

[K2SkyRider]

Rob, rotormad , thanks for your useful comments.

MJR , it wasn't clear who your points were directed at from your post, but if they were directed at me, let me know and I'll post a reply.

Cheers,

K2

[Andy_R]

Or alternatively:

Spend the £25k on a modular at SFC and you have £35k to keep yourself current, add an instructor rating, get multi time and anything else to be different from all the other fATPL holders, and when Easy or Ryan bond you to a type rating course you'll be more able to afford the repayments than if you were already £60k+++ in debt.

[Monitorverticalspeed]

There are a lot of people going through the 737 rating with Astraeus, more than 20 a month i think, so you have to question the quality of training your going to get. I would use the money to keep current on your twin. They are very very busy with there type training if you think you may get a job with them at the end i would seriously think again.

[K2SkyRider]

Sounds like a plan cloud69

Anyone know how much you can earn as an instructor? I hear it's draining to do it full time....how about 3 days flying/2 days ground school instruction?

Also, rotormad , do SFC still ask you to undergo selection for the 0-B737 if you can prove you were selected by another FTO e.g. Oxford APP?

K2

[rotormad]

MVS

Good point, but are these 20 a month type-rating guys (girls) getting 100 hours line time, because that's the real bonus, if any, to this course.

Getting a type-rating has always been possible but line time has proved to be both difficult and or expensive. Do they currently offer this 100 hour goal as standard???????????????

K2

I doubt it mate, selection does tend to be specific to each training provider. I passed military app but would still have to undergo any other selection process. Crap aint it!!!

[Monitorverticalspeed]

They do offer the type rating and line training for 30K I think, not sure how many are doing line training but if your only doing the 300 rating, they only have 4. So if your going to do 100 hours that'll take about a month or so, so you could be in for a long wait!

Rumour has it a 757 is on the cards, they'll be charging for that next !!

[rotormad]

According to today's Flight International they only have two 300!!!!!!

MVS is that correct about the 100 hours being included, if so that changes things a bit. If there are 20 guys a month going through does anyone know what the state of employment or placing of these chaps has been??

Any ideas anyone???

[Down3Greens]

As Rob Lloyd said, why on earth would you commit to obtaining any rating now when you have no idea what the state of the industry will be in 24 weeks let alone 24 months when you complete fATPL. The Astraeus thing seems to be a production line more akin to a sausage factory. I was at Oxford and about 1 year ago an Astraeus capatain did a talk and at that time he said the TRTO part of the business was more profitable than the airline.

Will they take anybodies money?? I reckon they probably would, their TRTO exists for one reason only

To sell as many Type ratings as possible, nothing more.

If they are specifically recruiting for Astraues they will skim off the cream, but I doubt they will turn away £20k from anyone willing to pay.

I am not long out of college and I would heed Robs advice, I attended the BALPA employment conference last year and I heard at least 5-6 senior Airline recruiters saying "Just DON'T do it" in relation to buying your rating, unless on a TRSS with an employment offer attached. Any Airline that offers you employement as a low hours pilot will want you do your Jet conversion their way with their training captain and their SOP's.

100 hours Line training may be better than just a base check but it is still not enough to get hired as an experienced pilot. I have not seen a single job advert that seeks 737 rated pilots with min 100 hours experience...... have you?

[StudentInDebt]

Don't Do It

As has already been pointed out with the volume of people paying for their 737 type rating your chances of getting a job afterwards are significantly diminished. Rob and 3Greens have said it best the airlines need experienced pilots and holding a bare 737/A320 rating with no time does not qualify you as experienced.

Getting a type rating is not an automatic guarantee of employment no matter what the marketing people hint at. As it happens according to previous posts on this topic all you are going to get at best from AEU if you are recommended is a summer contract following a successful AEU, sorry Bond Aviation type rating.

This isn't just a dig at AEU/Bond, it applies to all Type Rating providers. They are really happy to tell you all sorts of statistics about graduate placement and how they are good mates with the cheif pilot at so and so. All they really want is your money.

[discoinsert]

Is there anyone out there who has done a type rating with Astraeus or another TRTO in the last year that is employed?

[Pilot Pete]

discoinsert

Yes, there are several. Equally though, there are several who have done the type rating who do not have jobs.

Buying a type rating is nothing more than a gamble, especially when you don't get a guarantee of a job at the end of it.

The market is certainly picking up for newly qualified pilots, but it is still extremely tough. Thinking that getting a type rating and circa 100hrs for your £15k-£20k is simply not enough. You must bear in mind the consequences of not being offered employment at the end of it. Then what? You're another £20k in debt (possibly over and above your already not inconsiderable training debt) and you have potentially closed off parts of the airline market to yourself. Even those who fly the type don't look overly kindly on those who have paid for a rating with (a-n-other) training organisation rather than the one they run/ use.

I personally feel that those facts, coupled to the undoubted lowering of terms and conditions for pilots that this practice causes, means that I would not choose to pay for a rating. I know that is easy for me to say sitting up front in a nice shiny airliner and getting paid a full wage.

What I recommend is getting the licence issued via whatever route suits you; be it integrated or modular. Then bank on doing something to build the hours, be it instructing, bush flying, air-taxi (when you get to 700hrs) or para-dropping/ tugging etc etc. That's when you will learn most about flying and commanding an aircraft and it is also the time when you will start to get exposure to plenty of potential contacts. These are the people who can prove extremely valuable when hunting for that first break. Networking is the key and not enough newbie pilots actively engage in it. I know several people who have networked their way to the top of the 'interview' pile with potential airline employers. These are the people who many wannabes ask on here 'how many hours did you have when they offered you the job?' when they post about their first break. A better question would be 'how did you get the interview/ selection?' That would probably reveal more about what is required in the current market as there seems to be little adhearance to the 'traditional' recruitment ladder as more and more airlines want to fill their right hand seats with pilots who will;
1. pay for the rating.
2. work for a lower salary for 'x' number of years.
3. know someone in the airline who will give them a recommendation.
4. who are young enough to not really complain about 1 & 2 above yet.

I can't stress enough how important I think the networking is, even for guys with a few thousand hours who are looking for their first jet job. It really DOES work. Try it, rather than sit there making excuses about how bad the market is, how unfair it is, how throwing money at a type rating MUST help. It's certainly the cheaper option and you never know, you might just get a break with an employer who is willing to pay to train you..................

Best of luck

PP

[PENNINE BOY]

Good Profits For All these Airlines !!

I wonder if the paying punters in the back know that the aircraft is being flown single CREW as the F/O is paying to occupy the right seat !!! For 100 hrs before trying the ejector seat handle

Come on BALPA and CAA get of your arse and sort it out !!!!!