Stapleford and a 737 rating, benefits?
Pennine Boy
Bit wide of the mark there - the system is approved by the CAA, it is called Line Training!
I agree that BALPA should be more proactive in persuading airlines of the benefit of training new FOs themselves, but given the erosion of our terms and conditions and critical issues such as the Simpson FTL scheme this is a low priority for them (as I discovered when I asked about their position on self-sponsored MCCs a few years ago).
General background:
All airline line training takes place under the supervision of a training captain and, initially, a 3rd qualified pilot. It matters not whether one has "paid to sit in the RHS" (which arguably we all have), otherwise known as completing a self-sponsored type rating or had the airline pay for the rating. Line training is done with passengers onboard flying normal flights. After completing a set number of sectors (interesting that the scheme being talked about gives 100 hours experience rather than 40 or 60 sectors) one undertakes a Line Check. Once this is successfully completed the requirement to fly with a trainer is removed (for a year at least
)
Bit wide of the mark there - the system is approved by the CAA, it is called Line Training!
I agree that BALPA should be more proactive in persuading airlines of the benefit of training new FOs themselves, but given the erosion of our terms and conditions and critical issues such as the Simpson FTL scheme this is a low priority for them (as I discovered when I asked about their position on self-sponsored MCCs a few years ago).
General background:
All airline line training takes place under the supervision of a training captain and, initially, a 3rd qualified pilot. It matters not whether one has "paid to sit in the RHS" (which arguably we all have), otherwise known as completing a self-sponsored type rating or had the airline pay for the rating. Line training is done with passengers onboard flying normal flights. After completing a set number of sectors (interesting that the scheme being talked about gives 100 hours experience rather than 40 or 60 sectors) one undertakes a Line Check. Once this is successfully completed the requirement to fly with a trainer is removed (for a year at least
)
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STUDENT IN DEBT
Thanks for putting me straight on what line training is !
I will have to remember that on my next new F/O when he or her gives me his training file to start his LINE TRAINING.
The point I am trying to make is not all the guys n girls are going to get to final line check in 100hrs.
Imagine the experience level you would have got doing your 100hrs on 4hr sectors and the 12 to 20 landings you would have done! Some people might get taken on but surely you would be better gaining more experience like yourself by instructing and saving your money untill that elusive first job comes up, and it will, we have all been there.
Keep networking and it will happen. A lot better than 100hrs 737/300 and not current with the months ticking by. Even with a hundred hours on type you will still be behind the 8 ball!!!
Safe Flying
Thanks for putting me straight on what line training is !
I will have to remember that on my next new F/O when he or her gives me his training file to start his LINE TRAINING.
The point I am trying to make is not all the guys n girls are going to get to final line check in 100hrs.
Imagine the experience level you would have got doing your 100hrs on 4hr sectors and the 12 to 20 landings you would have done! Some people might get taken on but surely you would be better gaining more experience like yourself by instructing and saving your money untill that elusive first job comes up, and it will, we have all been there.
Keep networking and it will happen. A lot better than 100hrs 737/300 and not current with the months ticking by. Even with a hundred hours on type you will still be behind the 8 ball!!!
Safe Flying
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Benjamin1981,
Just backtracking slightly to Stapleford, I am training there at the moment ( I would recomend them whole heartedly), and too have had a look at the Astreaus deal. Although on paper it looks like a great deal, 50k for FATPL + TR + Line training, you are going to be paying considerably more than that unless you are an absolute wiz.
The 25K price at Stapleford means that you do the IR before the CPL hence saving money on hour building and giving you ten hours less on the CPL. I am led to believe that doing a IR before CPL is extremely hard and also at the end of the training you come out with less hours TT. It also includes the Full time ATPL theory course at London Met ( I think) which is very cheap but if you dont live near the City, renting in Town will add to the cost significantly.
Finally I dont think it includes an MCC course which will add another 2-3k onto the total cost.
Please dont get me wrong, I think Stapleford are excellent and I really would recommend them to train at, but I dont believe that 25k is realistic to plan for.
Feel free to PM me if you want.
Regards
Foz.
Just backtracking slightly to Stapleford, I am training there at the moment ( I would recomend them whole heartedly), and too have had a look at the Astreaus deal. Although on paper it looks like a great deal, 50k for FATPL + TR + Line training, you are going to be paying considerably more than that unless you are an absolute wiz.
The 25K price at Stapleford means that you do the IR before the CPL hence saving money on hour building and giving you ten hours less on the CPL. I am led to believe that doing a IR before CPL is extremely hard and also at the end of the training you come out with less hours TT. It also includes the Full time ATPL theory course at London Met ( I think) which is very cheap but if you dont live near the City, renting in Town will add to the cost significantly.
Finally I dont think it includes an MCC course which will add another 2-3k onto the total cost.
Please dont get me wrong, I think Stapleford are excellent and I really would recommend them to train at, but I dont believe that 25k is realistic to plan for.
Feel free to PM me if you want.
Regards
Foz.
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As usual on this forum, the negative points of view seem to prevail. Just to balance it up a bit here's what I know. I too was at the BALPA Employment Conference where a number of companies advised against SSTRs. However what they say at these sort of events and what they actually do when it comes to recruitment may not always follow.
I completed the 737 300-900 rating with Astraeus and 5 out of 9 on the course, including me, secured jobs without any line experience, just the base training.
So it is not true to say that all airlines will want to train you and will not consider SSTRs obtained at another TRTO.
I completed the 737 300-900 rating with Astraeus and 5 out of 9 on the course, including me, secured jobs without any line experience, just the base training.
So it is not true to say that all airlines will want to train you and will not consider SSTRs obtained at another TRTO.
Lies, damn lies and statistics
Doog
How long ago did you do the course? What happened to the other 4? Are the 5 of you employed on the 737? Are you saying that doing the "Line Training" element of the package is not worth it?
Please don't think I am having a go at you, I (and I am sure those considering doing this) would really like to know the answers.
How long ago did you do the course? What happened to the other 4? Are the 5 of you employed on the 737? Are you saying that doing the "Line Training" element of the package is not worth it?
Please don't think I am having a go at you, I (and I am sure those considering doing this) would really like to know the answers.
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Since this thread is getting into the pros and cons of a self-sponsored type rating, I wonder how those who recommend NOT to go for it think the lo-hours guys can get experience. Before I get my head ripped off, let me explain the options:
- do air taxi on a twin: great idea, but one does need 700 hours TT to do that. How is one supposed to reach this number with only 250-300 hours to start with? Hour building - at £90/hour?
- FI rating: again a good idea, only there are quite a few unemployed FIs around, and airlines don't really give a damn about somebody with 1,500 hrs. single-engine time (which is what most new FIs start doing anyway). Plus during the winter months, be prepared to earn about £300/month. Well, that's my monthly rent!
- glider tug: tried that, and unless you are a full member of the club and ready to work for zero pay (most gliding clubs being not-for-profit outfits), you won't get a look in. I know, I used to be a member myself.
- parajumping pilot: again, very much depends on wether you are a member or not. Again it's quite often unpaid SE, VFR work.
- networking: I've been a cabin crew member for three different airlines, both before and after my flight training. Do my airline contacts help? Nope. I am now a Flight Dispatcher at a major UK airport and get to talk to a lot of different flight deck crew. They provide me with the numbers and/or e-mail adresses of Chief Pilots and Recruitment Captains; I call and don't get past the ops assistant (usual story), I e-mail and they don't bother to answer.
While I do understand and accept the point of those saying "don't do it", I would like to know what the VIABLE answers are in their opinion.
Cheers
- do air taxi on a twin: great idea, but one does need 700 hours TT to do that. How is one supposed to reach this number with only 250-300 hours to start with? Hour building - at £90/hour?
- FI rating: again a good idea, only there are quite a few unemployed FIs around, and airlines don't really give a damn about somebody with 1,500 hrs. single-engine time (which is what most new FIs start doing anyway). Plus during the winter months, be prepared to earn about £300/month. Well, that's my monthly rent!
- glider tug: tried that, and unless you are a full member of the club and ready to work for zero pay (most gliding clubs being not-for-profit outfits), you won't get a look in. I know, I used to be a member myself.
- parajumping pilot: again, very much depends on wether you are a member or not. Again it's quite often unpaid SE, VFR work.
- networking: I've been a cabin crew member for three different airlines, both before and after my flight training. Do my airline contacts help? Nope. I am now a Flight Dispatcher at a major UK airport and get to talk to a lot of different flight deck crew. They provide me with the numbers and/or e-mail adresses of Chief Pilots and Recruitment Captains; I call and don't get past the ops assistant (usual story), I e-mail and they don't bother to answer.
While I do understand and accept the point of those saying "don't do it", I would like to know what the VIABLE answers are in their opinion.
Cheers
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FM , a very enlightening post.
I've been back and forth like a ping pong ball over this issue. There seems to be no clear strategy other than to get a list of all the airlines who approve/encourage SSTRs that are not necessarily at one of their approved TRTOs. If anyone could help to get a list together, that woiuld be great.
Cheers,
K2
I've been back and forth like a ping pong ball over this issue. There seems to be no clear strategy other than to get a list of all the airlines who approve/encourage SSTRs that are not necessarily at one of their approved TRTOs. If anyone could help to get a list together, that woiuld be great.
Cheers,
K2
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As somebody mentioned before Bond will, or do use this as a money earner. My advice is be very careful handing out large amounts of money without the job guaranty, I had a friend who had a bad experience with this lot!!!!!!
Come on BALPA stop these companies kicking us while we are down, Flying training is expensive enough without the airlines shafting us.
Come on BALPA stop these companies kicking us while we are down, Flying training is expensive enough without the airlines shafting us.
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I would tend to agree with Pilot Pete. And this is coming from someone with experience of Stapleford (PPL), Cabair (Integrated fATPL) AND Astraeus (B737 TR).
I would recommend any one of them in a second, but you've really got to look at the cost/benefits of this before making a decision.
At the moment I'm going through the line training process. Do I think 100 hours is enough? No way! I'm one of those fortunate (and don't I know it) enough to be able to 'buy' more experience later on if I chose to - and before the barrage of rotten tomatoes comes my way, my training was to a damn good standard and I do not consider myself to be any worse than other B737 pilots with similar experience. The training can take you so far, the rest is down to you... but I digress...
The thing that seems to gets doors opened is experience. I'm not saying you can't get a job without it - some doors have been opened for me already (and shut again when I screwed up the interviews!!)
My advice: get some hours behind you instead of worrying about a B737 type rating - the industry IS picking up, and you'll have more options open to you when the powers that be start scratching their heads saying "where are all the @/*£$% pilots?"
experience + knowledge + decent personality = good chance of getting that job
(IMHO)
Good luck with your decision!
w?m?
I would recommend any one of them in a second, but you've really got to look at the cost/benefits of this before making a decision.
At the moment I'm going through the line training process. Do I think 100 hours is enough? No way! I'm one of those fortunate (and don't I know it) enough to be able to 'buy' more experience later on if I chose to - and before the barrage of rotten tomatoes comes my way, my training was to a damn good standard and I do not consider myself to be any worse than other B737 pilots with similar experience. The training can take you so far, the rest is down to you... but I digress...
The thing that seems to gets doors opened is experience. I'm not saying you can't get a job without it - some doors have been opened for me already (and shut again when I screwed up the interviews!!)
My advice: get some hours behind you instead of worrying about a B737 type rating - the industry IS picking up, and you'll have more options open to you when the powers that be start scratching their heads saying "where are all the @/*£$% pilots?"
experience + knowledge + decent personality = good chance of getting that job
(IMHO)
Good luck with your decision!
w?m?
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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What`s a hold? said:
With naivety like that you can plead as much as you like to BALPA. To be honest, I doubt they'd really be interested in you as 1% of zero isn't worth zip to them or anyone else.
Have you managed to at least complete a high school education? Do you realise that you live in a democratic, capitalist society? Do you think ANY company, never mind Bond Aviation Training, is set up only to provide you with charity?
Perhaps you should have been born into the Soviet Union during the 60's or 70's where state run organisations trained you and gave you a job for life. Oops, I forgot, most of those Soviet era countries went bankrupt a long time ago. you could try North Korea I suppose.
No one is kicking you when you are down. It is survival of the fittest and with brain power as exemplified in your post, I'd give up now. You are going to find being 'shafted' is a fairly regular experience until you realise that it's expensive, the companies offering the type ratings are in business to make a profit as are the future employers you are unlikely to work for!
I never cease to be saddened by a few of the wannabes who expect everything to be cheap and affordable just because they don't feel like competing with several hundred other wannabes for the few jobs available in this end of the industry. Grow up, get a life and most importantly, remember that you are just one fish in a much larger school all competing for a very limited number of openings for new, self improver pilots.
It's a cruel world out there.
As somebody mentioned before Bond will, or do use this as a money earner. My advice is be very careful handing out large amounts of money without the job guaranty, I had a friend who had a bad experience with this lot!!!!!!
Come on BALPA stop these companies kicking us while we are down, Flying training is expensive enough without the airlines shafting us.
Come on BALPA stop these companies kicking us while we are down, Flying training is expensive enough without the airlines shafting us.
Have you managed to at least complete a high school education? Do you realise that you live in a democratic, capitalist society? Do you think ANY company, never mind Bond Aviation Training, is set up only to provide you with charity?
Perhaps you should have been born into the Soviet Union during the 60's or 70's where state run organisations trained you and gave you a job for life. Oops, I forgot, most of those Soviet era countries went bankrupt a long time ago. you could try North Korea I suppose.
No one is kicking you when you are down. It is survival of the fittest and with brain power as exemplified in your post, I'd give up now. You are going to find being 'shafted' is a fairly regular experience until you realise that it's expensive, the companies offering the type ratings are in business to make a profit as are the future employers you are unlikely to work for!
I never cease to be saddened by a few of the wannabes who expect everything to be cheap and affordable just because they don't feel like competing with several hundred other wannabes for the few jobs available in this end of the industry. Grow up, get a life and most importantly, remember that you are just one fish in a much larger school all competing for a very limited number of openings for new, self improver pilots.
It's a cruel world out there.
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Cargo boy, relax. Now you`re just starting an arguement, my education has nothing to do with my reply I am just stating that a certain company shafted a friend out of money and for others to tread carefully. And by my recognition the lights were on when the robbery occurred. My friend is not the only one out there in this situation but lot`s more won`t admit it.
Sounds like I have upset somebody with connections to the named outfit, never mind no doubt i`ll hear from you soon xxx
What`s a hold?
Sounds like I have upset somebody with connections to the named outfit, never mind no doubt i`ll hear from you soon xxx
What`s a hold?
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Care to elaborate on what "I am just stating that a certain company shafted a friend out of money and for others to tread carefully. And by my recognition the lights were on when the robbery occurred." you mean?
One persons "shafting" could be anothers failure to achieve a required minimum standard.
One persons "shafting" could be anothers failure to achieve a required minimum standard.
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All TRTOs provide their services with the intention of making a profit; there are no charities in aviation. Even the in-house training at easyJet and Ryanair is structured and costed to show a financial surplus (i.e. the accountants can say that initial training is not a cost drain on the airline). This is equally true of the school that trained you for PPL, or IR, or ME or whatever. You are buying a product from a profit making organisation. Get over it.
As others have stated, you have to establish whether the product offers you value for money before you shell out your cash. That's not easy to do, and I would have to say that it's impossible to do before you've even started your PPL training - so, as Rob says, don't sign up for any kind of jet training at that end of the deal. Get a contractural option to do the TR after the fATPL has been achieved; that way you can assess the market much closer to the time that you will be entering it.
As for the quality of the training itself, there is no reason to suggest that Astraeus' training is any worse than anyone else's, including Ryanair and easyJet. They have a reputation to guard, and they use airline-style selection procedures to weed out the no-hopers - however you contract to do the training. I would say that, if you decide to go the TR route, Astraeus is as good a place to do it as any.
Is a B737 TR the right thing to do for you? Only you can answer that. Again, others have warned of the traps of being restricted to one part of the overall market through your qualifications - at the very least, you could have wasted your money if the first job offer you get is on A320s! Some recruiters may resent the route you have taken, and reject you on principle. Others may have the opinion that you've taken a wise course and think better of you for it. Who knows which opinion you will encounter?
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that type ratings are an airline's responsibility and a legitimate charge on their balance sheet (though bonds have for many years offset that cost). I don't agree with a system that encourages you to get a speculative type rating at your own cost as an ab-initio, However, I recognise that the opportunity is there and there are many who will take it. Just be careful how you spend your money!
Scroggs
As others have stated, you have to establish whether the product offers you value for money before you shell out your cash. That's not easy to do, and I would have to say that it's impossible to do before you've even started your PPL training - so, as Rob says, don't sign up for any kind of jet training at that end of the deal. Get a contractural option to do the TR after the fATPL has been achieved; that way you can assess the market much closer to the time that you will be entering it.
As for the quality of the training itself, there is no reason to suggest that Astraeus' training is any worse than anyone else's, including Ryanair and easyJet. They have a reputation to guard, and they use airline-style selection procedures to weed out the no-hopers - however you contract to do the training. I would say that, if you decide to go the TR route, Astraeus is as good a place to do it as any.
Is a B737 TR the right thing to do for you? Only you can answer that. Again, others have warned of the traps of being restricted to one part of the overall market through your qualifications - at the very least, you could have wasted your money if the first job offer you get is on A320s! Some recruiters may resent the route you have taken, and reject you on principle. Others may have the opinion that you've taken a wise course and think better of you for it. Who knows which opinion you will encounter?
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that type ratings are an airline's responsibility and a legitimate charge on their balance sheet (though bonds have for many years offset that cost). I don't agree with a system that encourages you to get a speculative type rating at your own cost as an ab-initio, However, I recognise that the opportunity is there and there are many who will take it. Just be careful how you spend your money!
Scroggs
*I* would do the following if I had £60k and no licenses:
Distance learn ATPL exams then Modular CPL IR from one of those smaller word of mouth FTOs that litter the countryside.
Then with £15k left over I would spend £5k on an FI rating and get a job - any job and there was one begging last week in the FI Forum for anyone willing to move to Scotland - and build a few hours.
I'd then almost immediately target a smaller operator - perhaps on the same airfield. Someone like BAC Express, Loganair, Emerald, Eastern or maybe some air charter/taxi outfit or someone like the Fisheries protection people.
I'd turn up at each and offer very simply and quickly that you want to join and have the £10k in cash today to cover the type rating IF they hire you. I am pretty sure that after a while one of these smaller operators would take you on. In the meantime you are building hours as a lowly PPL FI and if you've any sense having a ball in the process.
Once you have secured your seat in a Shed, HS748, Cessna Caravan, ATR or whatever you will rapidly acquire 1,000 hour multiengine multicrew.
Ta Da! Congratulations, who are no longer an inexperienced Wannabe - airlines will start returning your calls and filing your CVs.
Yes yes, it would have been nice to cut out the hard work and go straight to an airline jet with 200hrs. But - as many have told you - thats just a lottery.
There is certainly no shortage of flying instructors but then neither are there any that I know of that do not have a job at the moment. I know of two people flying low profile turboprops in the UK who this month have left to fly for NetJets. Their vacant jobs will NOT appear in Flight. You *could* very possibly secure those vacant seats IF your CV was in the Chief Pilots hand with your offer of covering the rating costs still ringing in his ears.
(please don't Private Message me asking for the company)
The pays not much but its over £20k. The flying is challenging and interesting. The previous job holders did it for less than two years and are now blatting around the world in shiny executive jets.
I wouldn't sign on the line for an 18 month training programme involving a B737 type rating.
However, the scheme with Astraeus does have more merit than any other B737 type rating scheme I've seen so if you really want one then that's probably the place to go.
Cheers
WWW
Distance learn ATPL exams then Modular CPL IR from one of those smaller word of mouth FTOs that litter the countryside.
Then with £15k left over I would spend £5k on an FI rating and get a job - any job and there was one begging last week in the FI Forum for anyone willing to move to Scotland - and build a few hours.
I'd then almost immediately target a smaller operator - perhaps on the same airfield. Someone like BAC Express, Loganair, Emerald, Eastern or maybe some air charter/taxi outfit or someone like the Fisheries protection people.
I'd turn up at each and offer very simply and quickly that you want to join and have the £10k in cash today to cover the type rating IF they hire you. I am pretty sure that after a while one of these smaller operators would take you on. In the meantime you are building hours as a lowly PPL FI and if you've any sense having a ball in the process.
Once you have secured your seat in a Shed, HS748, Cessna Caravan, ATR or whatever you will rapidly acquire 1,000 hour multiengine multicrew.
Ta Da! Congratulations, who are no longer an inexperienced Wannabe - airlines will start returning your calls and filing your CVs.
Yes yes, it would have been nice to cut out the hard work and go straight to an airline jet with 200hrs. But - as many have told you - thats just a lottery.
There is certainly no shortage of flying instructors but then neither are there any that I know of that do not have a job at the moment. I know of two people flying low profile turboprops in the UK who this month have left to fly for NetJets. Their vacant jobs will NOT appear in Flight. You *could* very possibly secure those vacant seats IF your CV was in the Chief Pilots hand with your offer of covering the rating costs still ringing in his ears.
(please don't Private Message me asking for the company)
The pays not much but its over £20k. The flying is challenging and interesting. The previous job holders did it for less than two years and are now blatting around the world in shiny executive jets.
I wouldn't sign on the line for an 18 month training programme involving a B737 type rating.
However, the scheme with Astraeus does have more merit than any other B737 type rating scheme I've seen so if you really want one then that's probably the place to go.
Cheers
WWW
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Sound advice WWW and having progressed part way through the above scenario I am pretty sure it will work. A full summer of FI work ahead of me should see me with at least 800 hours. But who knows that call from a TP operator could come first and then the rest will be history.
From what I understand TP flying is some of the most fun you will ever have, don't knock it 'til you try it.
The best advice I could give anyone IMHO is keep flying. Last year I had an fATPL with 250 hours and I am sure that there are now many more people out there in that position this year. At some point the experience on your CV will become desireable. Of course you could just wait around for the "shiny jet job"
From what I understand TP flying is some of the most fun you will ever have, don't knock it 'til you try it.
The best advice I could give anyone IMHO is keep flying. Last year I had an fATPL with 250 hours and I am sure that there are now many more people out there in that position this year. At some point the experience on your CV will become desireable. Of course you could just wait around for the "shiny jet job"
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Monitorverticalspeed
The most people who have gone through the Bond/astraeus Type conversion course was 16 in February, most of which already jobs when commencing their course.
H
The most people who have gone through the Bond/astraeus Type conversion course was 16 in February, most of which already jobs when commencing their course.
H
