ATPLS and the benefits of where you get them
Join Date: Jan 1997
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Saitek,
While you may have stepped out of the hurly burly of this thread you might want to keep an weather eye on the other one mentioned.
The forum is avidly read by the FTO's and very experienced pilots lurk as well. I've very pointedly invited rebuttal under my real name because it is fact not opinion.
Regards
Rob
While you may have stepped out of the hurly burly of this thread you might want to keep an weather eye on the other one mentioned.
The forum is avidly read by the FTO's and very experienced pilots lurk as well. I've very pointedly invited rebuttal under my real name because it is fact not opinion.
Regards
Rob
Join Date: Jan 2002
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still no answer!
Hey folks!
Well some of the points highlighted have been answered, some not.
Perhaps the big one which hasn't is do the big name schools put your name forward if you are doing a modular course and not an integrated one!
Someone must know!
kempus
Well some of the points highlighted have been answered, some not.
Perhaps the big one which hasn't is do the big name schools put your name forward if you are doing a modular course and not an integrated one!
Someone must know!
kempus
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It seems to me, and I know I am simply a student, but this is my opinion, that Its not what you know, but either who you know or being in the right place at the right time. Im hoping that this is not always the case, but Ive heard from many people that it is.
I did my ATPL groundschool training in London, which was constantly getting slagged off from people that I spoke to. The truth is, im finishing the exams with the same end result as everyone else - 14 ATPL exam passes. Since its the CAA that set the playing field for the exams, why should it matter where you did them, if you have been taught the knowledge to pass them. This, in my opinion goes for the flight training as well. Since its the CAA that in effect test your skills, why should it matter who taught it to you?
If indeed the above is the case, can someone in an airline actually justify why someone who paid over the odds for their training and who has the same flying qualifications (frozen ATPL) stand a better chance than someone who also holds a frozen ATPL and went somewhere they could afford?
I hope the above doesnt read 'im against Oxford' because that is certainly not the case!
I did my ATPL groundschool training in London, which was constantly getting slagged off from people that I spoke to. The truth is, im finishing the exams with the same end result as everyone else - 14 ATPL exam passes. Since its the CAA that set the playing field for the exams, why should it matter where you did them, if you have been taught the knowledge to pass them. This, in my opinion goes for the flight training as well. Since its the CAA that in effect test your skills, why should it matter who taught it to you?
If indeed the above is the case, can someone in an airline actually justify why someone who paid over the odds for their training and who has the same flying qualifications (frozen ATPL) stand a better chance than someone who also holds a frozen ATPL and went somewhere they could afford?
I hope the above doesnt read 'im against Oxford' because that is certainly not the case!
BB,
We'll have less of that common-sense round here, if you don't mind!
You're absolutely right. Phrases about emperors and new clothes spring to mind.
We'll have less of that common-sense round here, if you don't mind!
You're absolutely right. Phrases about emperors and new clothes spring to mind.
aka Capt PPRuNe
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I'd like to make a point here. Whilst I am just a line pilot with no management or training ambitions, I was directly involved with and designed the questionnaire as well as helped in the selection to recruit the 5 pilots for the PPRuNe/Astraeus B737 cadet scheme nearly two years ago. For those of you who are not familiar with the scheme, PPRuNe and Astraeus joined forces and we advertised for fATPL's who had no previous airline or jet experience to apply for selection as B737 first officers with the newly formed company.
Eligibility for application was a UK or JAA fATPL, class I medical and the right of abode and work in the EU. Just under 200 eligible pilots applied and completed the on-line questionnaire. Out of those I had to select 25 for interview and out of those 25, a team of us selected 10 for simulator assessment and 5 were offered a B737 type rating and temporary employment leading to a full time offer of employment after six months of line flying.
The five candidates who were selected have all been with Astraeus since their courses and are now seasoned and experienced B737 pilots with a varied and wide range of line flying experience on at least 3 continents. Some of them post on here from time to time with advice for those of you starting out on their careers as do others with even more experience.
My point is, at no time when I had to narrow down the field of almost 200 candidates to 25 did I take into consideration where any of the candidates had studied for their licences. As long as they had the licence they were considered and it came down to how they presented themselves in their applications. There was no scientific formula and as long as their enthusiasm, maturity, intelligence and attitude shone through then they had a chance.
Once the field was narrowed down to 25 the task became more difficult but even at this stage, where they had studied and gained their licence had no bearing. Personality, attitude and charisma were the order of the day and I don't think that any fo those traits are taught or examined at any flight training establishment. After a couple of entertaining group exercises the 25 were given two on one interviews with the same series of questions being asked as well as a chance for them to quiz us and highlight their own reasons for applying.
At this stage their flying skills and knowledge were not being evaluated. They all had the minimum requirements and had been examined by the CAA or their local aviation authorities and had at least the minimum standards as they all had been issued with a fATPL. There were eight of us doing the selection. We were a mix of airline and non-airline people including an air-traffic controller, current and ex-airline pilots, some with training experience, some with management experience and some with no flying experience. We were looking for all-round, personable individuals who were likely to fit in with others already in the business. They had to be people we could be confined with for 10 or more hours at a time in a small cockpit and they had to be determined and highly motivated in order to complete a gruelling B737 type rating course.
Out of the 25 candidates who made it to the interviews we selected 10 for simulator assessment. They ranged in age from very early twenties to early forties. They included some who had studied at the big schools on fully approved courses and others who had studied mostly at home on correspondence courses and flight trained wherever they could get the best deal. It was probably more difficult narrowing down to the 10 than it was selecting the final five as flying skill and ability were always going to be easier to assess. Once we were in to simulator assessment it was a case of learning ability. At this stage it is possible that the quality of flight training MAY have been able to have an influence but finally it came down to accuracy, an aptitude to learn rapidly from mistakes, mental capacity and attitude. Those candidates who hadn't had any recent or regular flying experience were easy to spot and found it much more difficult, as expected. In the end though, it was a difficult choice but the five lucky candidates have turned out to be the right choice and have all integrated well into the job.
So, as far as PPRuNe and Astraeus were concerned it was not of any benefit where you actually studied for your fATPL as long as you had a valid one. All a licence shows is that you have met the minimum standards upon examination by your local aviation authority. I'm sure that some companies believe otherwise and it probably comes down to where training management pilots did their own training. In my case I did all my studying at home with correspondence courses and my flying training was wherever I could get the best deals. One establishment for the CPL flying and a different one for the IR.
It is my belief that you have to have some experience of life other than just school and/or college/university. Some of the applicants had very little if any life experience. Others had personalities that hindered them rather than helped them. The successful ones were those who had all round experience and abilities. Having the licence alone is not enough and unfortunately there are some people who don't realise that it takes more than just obtaining a fATPL to get a job. You also need enthusiasm, ambition, aptitude, determination, luck, a life and a personality. Now you tell me which training establishments provide most of those traits? Be honest with yourselves and make sure you have at least all those things before you even consider seriously laying out good money on your future career ambitions.
Eligibility for application was a UK or JAA fATPL, class I medical and the right of abode and work in the EU. Just under 200 eligible pilots applied and completed the on-line questionnaire. Out of those I had to select 25 for interview and out of those 25, a team of us selected 10 for simulator assessment and 5 were offered a B737 type rating and temporary employment leading to a full time offer of employment after six months of line flying.
The five candidates who were selected have all been with Astraeus since their courses and are now seasoned and experienced B737 pilots with a varied and wide range of line flying experience on at least 3 continents. Some of them post on here from time to time with advice for those of you starting out on their careers as do others with even more experience.
My point is, at no time when I had to narrow down the field of almost 200 candidates to 25 did I take into consideration where any of the candidates had studied for their licences. As long as they had the licence they were considered and it came down to how they presented themselves in their applications. There was no scientific formula and as long as their enthusiasm, maturity, intelligence and attitude shone through then they had a chance.
Once the field was narrowed down to 25 the task became more difficult but even at this stage, where they had studied and gained their licence had no bearing. Personality, attitude and charisma were the order of the day and I don't think that any fo those traits are taught or examined at any flight training establishment. After a couple of entertaining group exercises the 25 were given two on one interviews with the same series of questions being asked as well as a chance for them to quiz us and highlight their own reasons for applying.
At this stage their flying skills and knowledge were not being evaluated. They all had the minimum requirements and had been examined by the CAA or their local aviation authorities and had at least the minimum standards as they all had been issued with a fATPL. There were eight of us doing the selection. We were a mix of airline and non-airline people including an air-traffic controller, current and ex-airline pilots, some with training experience, some with management experience and some with no flying experience. We were looking for all-round, personable individuals who were likely to fit in with others already in the business. They had to be people we could be confined with for 10 or more hours at a time in a small cockpit and they had to be determined and highly motivated in order to complete a gruelling B737 type rating course.
Out of the 25 candidates who made it to the interviews we selected 10 for simulator assessment. They ranged in age from very early twenties to early forties. They included some who had studied at the big schools on fully approved courses and others who had studied mostly at home on correspondence courses and flight trained wherever they could get the best deal. It was probably more difficult narrowing down to the 10 than it was selecting the final five as flying skill and ability were always going to be easier to assess. Once we were in to simulator assessment it was a case of learning ability. At this stage it is possible that the quality of flight training MAY have been able to have an influence but finally it came down to accuracy, an aptitude to learn rapidly from mistakes, mental capacity and attitude. Those candidates who hadn't had any recent or regular flying experience were easy to spot and found it much more difficult, as expected. In the end though, it was a difficult choice but the five lucky candidates have turned out to be the right choice and have all integrated well into the job.
So, as far as PPRuNe and Astraeus were concerned it was not of any benefit where you actually studied for your fATPL as long as you had a valid one. All a licence shows is that you have met the minimum standards upon examination by your local aviation authority. I'm sure that some companies believe otherwise and it probably comes down to where training management pilots did their own training. In my case I did all my studying at home with correspondence courses and my flying training was wherever I could get the best deals. One establishment for the CPL flying and a different one for the IR.
It is my belief that you have to have some experience of life other than just school and/or college/university. Some of the applicants had very little if any life experience. Others had personalities that hindered them rather than helped them. The successful ones were those who had all round experience and abilities. Having the licence alone is not enough and unfortunately there are some people who don't realise that it takes more than just obtaining a fATPL to get a job. You also need enthusiasm, ambition, aptitude, determination, luck, a life and a personality. Now you tell me which training establishments provide most of those traits? Be honest with yourselves and make sure you have at least all those things before you even consider seriously laying out good money on your future career ambitions.
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Danny,
I must say thank you for taking your time to write that, its very inspiring. I'm studying for my ATPL theory at the moment, and it is easy with all the studying to loose sight of the very goal that I am studying for.
It's also good to hear information 'from the horses mouth' - from a line pilot that has experience of recruiting new pilots. I am taking the modular route, and to be honest, even if I had £60K, I would still take the modular route. With all the saved money, I would go on a few luxury holidays and do lots of flying to gain more experience. So spending £60K the modular route means more flying experience and more fun.
I must say thank you for taking your time to write that, its very inspiring. I'm studying for my ATPL theory at the moment, and it is easy with all the studying to loose sight of the very goal that I am studying for.
It's also good to hear information 'from the horses mouth' - from a line pilot that has experience of recruiting new pilots. I am taking the modular route, and to be honest, even if I had £60K, I would still take the modular route. With all the saved money, I would go on a few luxury holidays and do lots of flying to gain more experience. So spending £60K the modular route means more flying experience and more fun.
Jet Blast Rat
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Saitek
I have a friend starting at FlyBE. Althought my friend went through an integrated course, at least 2 of those on the same FlyBE entry studied on modular courses. Remember, what they say and what they do can be very different things, as people I know who have been promised jobs find out!
I have a friend starting at FlyBE. Althought my friend went through an integrated course, at least 2 of those on the same FlyBE entry studied on modular courses. Remember, what they say and what they do can be very different things, as people I know who have been promised jobs find out!
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Now look what you have done John! 
Created a whole list of confusing and different points of view. Why are you back in Ireland my friend what happened to SA?
From Mack Air
(The Dark Continent)
Created a whole list of confusing and different points of view. Why are you back in Ireland my friend what happened to SA?
From Mack Air
(The Dark Continent)
