Pilot shortage
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Just want to get back to what WWW said at the beginning of this thread about the number of predicted retirements in the coming years, does anyone know the number of new CPL / fATPL which are being issued each year because if its more than the number of retirements then thats not good news for all us low hours guys.
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The number of retirements in UK airlines is likely to be less than a hundred per year. The number of licences issued is well into the hundreds, and has been for many years. You are, as always, relying on airline expansion for new jobs.
Scroggs
Scroggs
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The problem is, it's all very well for airlines to say that there are no type-rated pilots available, but I know of more than one airline where type-rated and experienced friends of mine have applied, and they haven't even had an acknowledgement to their application, while non-type-rated guys have beeen hired. Now, you could say that maybe the airline has looked at the application and deemed the guy unsuitable for whatever reason, but I know in one particular carrier that that is not the case. It seems that quite often, the sheer volume of applications means that a lot quite simply get lost at the bottom of the pile. Luck of the draw I guess! But it's wrong for airlines to complain about the lack of type-rated guys - there are plenty out there who are willing to move, but airline recruitment departments are so over-worked and under-staffed that it's difficult for them to get a foot in the door.
Last edited by SLT; 20th Jan 2004 at 23:43.
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SLT you're absolutely right. The numbers of applications to most airlines are huge! It's not really surprising that some CVs are lost - especially when you're at the mercy of some spectacularly inefficient postal and administration departments! That makes it all the more important that you direct your CV to exactly the right person. You (RTO) also have to be appropriately qualified for the airlines you apply to!
Scroggs
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RTO, I'm not being funny, but the fact is that a type-rating is a huge advantage as far as being hired is concerned. Airlines don't want to spend needless money on type-rating someone when they don't have to. After all, there is no guarantee that someone will pass the type-rating anyway, no matter how experienced they are - and that's just wasted precious time and money. Type-ratings are expensive, and companies are watching their budgets very carefully in the current climate. If they can get type-rated people, and their face fits, then they'll take them over non-rated - that's just the way life is.
As an aside - I do sympathise with you - I applied to Virgin about 6 months ago via the website, and haven't heard anything. I don't have a 340 or 744 rating, but I do have a lot of 330 hours. I guess my application is at the bottom of that pile we talked about!! I haven't sent repeated updates, because they say not to, so all I can do is wait! That's life I guess!!!!!
Safe flying chaps!!
As an aside - I do sympathise with you - I applied to Virgin about 6 months ago via the website, and haven't heard anything. I don't have a 340 or 744 rating, but I do have a lot of 330 hours. I guess my application is at the bottom of that pile we talked about!! I haven't sent repeated updates, because they say not to, so all I can do is wait! That's life I guess!!!!!
Safe flying chaps!!
I'm not sure that a type rating *is* such an advantage these days. I hear talk that Ryanair actually don't want experienced or type rated people. They would prefer to take someone who pays for their own rating, on a training contract, who then enters the airline (if they pass) on a much reduced salary for a number of years, with not enough time to get into the right hand seat for a while.
In such rapidly expanding airlines there are large numbers of FOs close to command hours who kick up a terrible fuss about hiring new people direct to the LHS or close to it. Hence its less strife to get cadets in.
Such cadets can be signed up in such a fashion that they actually DO pay for their training either out of their own pocket up front or via reduced salaries for - say - 7 years.
You keep your current FO's happy, you get to train cadets in your way and your way only, they pay for it, they are effectively bonded for a long time for doing it and you can send them anywhere in the empire at your whim. Much better than recruiting in experienced crews who have flown elsewhere and want x base on y type with z months to command assesment.
Once you have a large training department - largely outsourced and sub contracted - who run 364 days a year then its not such a big, difficult or distracting business to chuck a few more cadet courses into the sims.
Its certainly a funny old game,
Cheers
WWW
In such rapidly expanding airlines there are large numbers of FOs close to command hours who kick up a terrible fuss about hiring new people direct to the LHS or close to it. Hence its less strife to get cadets in.
Such cadets can be signed up in such a fashion that they actually DO pay for their training either out of their own pocket up front or via reduced salaries for - say - 7 years.
You keep your current FO's happy, you get to train cadets in your way and your way only, they pay for it, they are effectively bonded for a long time for doing it and you can send them anywhere in the empire at your whim. Much better than recruiting in experienced crews who have flown elsewhere and want x base on y type with z months to command assesment.
Once you have a large training department - largely outsourced and sub contracted - who run 364 days a year then its not such a big, difficult or distracting business to chuck a few more cadet courses into the sims.
Its certainly a funny old game,
Cheers
WWW
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RTO apologies, I read Dan's post and assumed his '140 hours and a PPL' comment referred to you; obviously I was wrong.
By 'appropriately qualified' I really mean that you apply to an airline fulfilling their likely requirements. It has been true in recent years that, unless you were very experienced, you probably benefitted from a rating on your target airline's type. That is unless you were totally inexperienced, and therefore qualified for some kind of sponsorship deal. As airlines begin to recruit again, type ratings are no longer the prerequisite that they once were - though they're unlikely to disqualify you!
Many airlines, as Dan pointed out, may advertise certain requirements, but the grapevine will suggest that those requirements are a moveable feast depending on how desperate that airline is for the pilots it needs. Above a certain experience level, and when applying for the larger longhaul airlines, a type-rating on that airline's aircraft has always been largely irrelevent; you will be rated when you undergo that airline's training.
So, when you see airline A's advert for 757-rated pilots, yet you know that that airline has a JAA-approved course on that type available, it's a fair bet that they will be prepared to rate those who they really want to employ, especially as the supply of rated pilots reduces.
As for SLT, perhaps you could PM me your story? I may be able to find out what's happened to your application.
Scroggs
By 'appropriately qualified' I really mean that you apply to an airline fulfilling their likely requirements. It has been true in recent years that, unless you were very experienced, you probably benefitted from a rating on your target airline's type. That is unless you were totally inexperienced, and therefore qualified for some kind of sponsorship deal. As airlines begin to recruit again, type ratings are no longer the prerequisite that they once were - though they're unlikely to disqualify you!
Many airlines, as Dan pointed out, may advertise certain requirements, but the grapevine will suggest that those requirements are a moveable feast depending on how desperate that airline is for the pilots it needs. Above a certain experience level, and when applying for the larger longhaul airlines, a type-rating on that airline's aircraft has always been largely irrelevent; you will be rated when you undergo that airline's training.
So, when you see airline A's advert for 757-rated pilots, yet you know that that airline has a JAA-approved course on that type available, it's a fair bet that they will be prepared to rate those who they really want to employ, especially as the supply of rated pilots reduces.
As for SLT, perhaps you could PM me your story? I may be able to find out what's happened to your application.
Scroggs
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not likely
Since 1990 I have been watching for this myth called "pilot shortage"..
Now one thing has become clear and that is that pilots never get called for by the media to give their outlook on the future (and FALPA etc dont represent the "real" marketplace out there in my humble view).
Not even your airline asks you for your opinion, so why should the media?
Where does this lead to? Clearly any industry leader who gets asked will encourage sytem to produce as many pilots as possible, so that they can influence the one major variable cost- wages. No CEO wants pilots in a position of power- we are to be numerous and too busy working to apply any leverage.
Folks, I like to be an optimist, but my advice is: Don't hold your breath for this major shortage, sorry. Be realistic and be prepared to rough it for a while, be inventive and dont be shy to work hard for little money before you get to the honey pot (which is getting smaller and smaller as I write)..
Good luck to all!
Now one thing has become clear and that is that pilots never get called for by the media to give their outlook on the future (and FALPA etc dont represent the "real" marketplace out there in my humble view).
Not even your airline asks you for your opinion, so why should the media?
Where does this lead to? Clearly any industry leader who gets asked will encourage sytem to produce as many pilots as possible, so that they can influence the one major variable cost- wages. No CEO wants pilots in a position of power- we are to be numerous and too busy working to apply any leverage.
Folks, I like to be an optimist, but my advice is: Don't hold your breath for this major shortage, sorry. Be realistic and be prepared to rough it for a while, be inventive and dont be shy to work hard for little money before you get to the honey pot (which is getting smaller and smaller as I write)..
Good luck to all!
Guest
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It isnt likely that there will be a pilot shortage any time soon, as here in new zealand, last year there were 400 qualified pilots graduate now looking for jobs. it will be about the same for a long time. Here we can apply for a student loan from the government to do our training.
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To add to the list of companies not requiring a type rating I can add Loganair. Although "only" a T/prop operator I'm pretty sure no <1000 hour guys would mind buzzing around in a Saab 340!!
We've taken on so many new FO's in the last 6 months its hard to remember all the names and faces!! Add to that a fair few RHS promotions and many leaving for Easy and NetJets all with only 340 experience were seeing a good amount of movement.
I accept that we are only a fairly small company and this does not mean there is pilot shortage but there is a significantly different air about the place compared to post 9/11.
We still do get a huge mountain of CV's though with some being chucked if spelling is wrong! (espiecally if it's the FTM's name!!)
Best of Luck to all still looking
WW
We've taken on so many new FO's in the last 6 months its hard to remember all the names and faces!! Add to that a fair few RHS promotions and many leaving for Easy and NetJets all with only 340 experience were seeing a good amount of movement.
I accept that we are only a fairly small company and this does not mean there is pilot shortage but there is a significantly different air about the place compared to post 9/11.
We still do get a huge mountain of CV's though with some being chucked if spelling is wrong! (espiecally if it's the FTM's name!!)
Best of Luck to all still looking
WW
