forced to pay for a type rating!
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Hi all,
The way i see it, is that i have no option, you see at the moment i am barely earning enough to cover my loan re-payments and re-paying a mortgage, so i am in the fortunate position to afford a type rating to get into an airline job and therefore earn more to provide myself with extra.
Yeah it sucks, but if you look at it as an investment then i don't think it seems so bad. I am only 21 and should be off flying round Africa but they pay nothing so whos gonna pay my loan then?
Just my 2 penneth!
C24R
The way i see it, is that i have no option, you see at the moment i am barely earning enough to cover my loan re-payments and re-paying a mortgage, so i am in the fortunate position to afford a type rating to get into an airline job and therefore earn more to provide myself with extra.
Yeah it sucks, but if you look at it as an investment then i don't think it seems so bad. I am only 21 and should be off flying round Africa but they pay nothing so whos gonna pay my loan then?
Just my 2 penneth!
C24R
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To get things right...
...first of all, if one buys "just" a type rating without any guarantee of the job after successfull completion of the training, this is what's going to happen:
- Fact number 1: You have just spent a huge amount of money that you are hoping to earn back some day, right?
- Fact number 2: There are still hundreds of pilots with both RATING and hundreds of hours LINE EXPERIENCE unemployed, so you will have to compete against them.
- Fact number 3: To be able to compete against those guys, you have to get some initial line experience on your type, right?
Well, do not worry, your "friends" who just took your money to "train" you will make a generous offer to you. You may get some experience on the right seat as long as you bring £ 100,- per sector with you! So, you will end up "having" to spend even more money (and time) to reach your ultimate goal.
You try to impress the airline with your skills, but why should they hire you and spend all that money into your salary because they will be able to get other guys to replace you any time for free? You will end up into this same long line with the guys who have the rating AND some operating experience...
So, as you see, this whole scenario will just make your bank manager happy, but it doesn't really help your situation at all. Please, try to understand that there are NO shortcuts or tricks available. The best thing to do is just wait, build your hours with some less fancy equipment (and keep your money) until times really change better again.
You don't have to believe what I'm saying here, but please, don't come back to this forum and cry that you lost all your money...
- Fact number 1: You have just spent a huge amount of money that you are hoping to earn back some day, right?
- Fact number 2: There are still hundreds of pilots with both RATING and hundreds of hours LINE EXPERIENCE unemployed, so you will have to compete against them.
- Fact number 3: To be able to compete against those guys, you have to get some initial line experience on your type, right?
Well, do not worry, your "friends" who just took your money to "train" you will make a generous offer to you. You may get some experience on the right seat as long as you bring £ 100,- per sector with you! So, you will end up "having" to spend even more money (and time) to reach your ultimate goal.
You try to impress the airline with your skills, but why should they hire you and spend all that money into your salary because they will be able to get other guys to replace you any time for free? You will end up into this same long line with the guys who have the rating AND some operating experience...
So, as you see, this whole scenario will just make your bank manager happy, but it doesn't really help your situation at all. Please, try to understand that there are NO shortcuts or tricks available. The best thing to do is just wait, build your hours with some less fancy equipment (and keep your money) until times really change better again.
You don't have to believe what I'm saying here, but please, don't come back to this forum and cry that you lost all your money...
Thread Starter
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Having someone pay to perform labour that would otherwise be remunerated should be illegal. And this is exactly my point.
You are not only not making money,
not only working for free,
But on top of it Having to pay to work!
Once you have:
1. Paid for your licences
2. Paid for your Type Rating
3. Paid for your line experience
You will not get hired because now you will cost airlines money. Now they will have to finally pay you for your services and why should they, there are plenty of other free pilots from where you came from.
Now you are in the middle. You have more too much experience to be a new entry (meaning free pilot),
But too little experience to be a captain (A legal and expensive requirement companies have yet to be able to by-pass)
What now?...catch 22!
Free labor should be out-lawed straight-out.
You are not only not making money,
not only working for free,
But on top of it Having to pay to work!
Once you have:
1. Paid for your licences
2. Paid for your Type Rating
3. Paid for your line experience
You will not get hired because now you will cost airlines money. Now they will have to finally pay you for your services and why should they, there are plenty of other free pilots from where you came from.
Now you are in the middle. You have more too much experience to be a new entry (meaning free pilot),
But too little experience to be a captain (A legal and expensive requirement companies have yet to be able to by-pass)
What now?...catch 22!
Free labor should be out-lawed straight-out.
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Aviate378 - w.r.t your Fact number 2: There are still hundreds of pilots with both RATING and hundreds of hours LINE EXPERIENCE unemployed
Actually, I think you're wrong.
Yes, there are lot's of pilots with type ratings. However the ratings that they hold are typically not for aircraft that are in demand. E.g. at our airline we see lots of applications from folks with L1011, B747-200, RJ100, BAC1-11, A300, and the like - whereas the types that are in demand are, of course, the B737 ( classic and NG ) plus the narrow body airbus's.
That said, there are indeed some pilots who do indeed have the in-demand aircraft ratings but who are not employed, wherein one might be so bold as to suggest that the predominant reason is anything from bad timing and / or no luck ( sound familiar ? ), and / or that they're dodgy operators, and / or that they've managed to get bad reputation / burn bridges - and trust me when I say that I see the old boy network doing its stuff on a daily basis; you'd be amazed at how some rated & current pilots don't even get a sniff on the basis of a nod and a wink from somebody they've ‘dissed’ being passed along the network
( but therein hangs a whole new thread ).
But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a good debate shall we ?
Actually, I think you're wrong.
Yes, there are lot's of pilots with type ratings. However the ratings that they hold are typically not for aircraft that are in demand. E.g. at our airline we see lots of applications from folks with L1011, B747-200, RJ100, BAC1-11, A300, and the like - whereas the types that are in demand are, of course, the B737 ( classic and NG ) plus the narrow body airbus's.
That said, there are indeed some pilots who do indeed have the in-demand aircraft ratings but who are not employed, wherein one might be so bold as to suggest that the predominant reason is anything from bad timing and / or no luck ( sound familiar ? ), and / or that they're dodgy operators, and / or that they've managed to get bad reputation / burn bridges - and trust me when I say that I see the old boy network doing its stuff on a daily basis; you'd be amazed at how some rated & current pilots don't even get a sniff on the basis of a nod and a wink from somebody they've ‘dissed’ being passed along the network
( but therein hangs a whole new thread ).But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a good debate shall we ?
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Still no one answering my question directly. I'll repeat it here for arguments sake:
If you were offered a job which included a jet type rating but would have to work for the next six months for, say £2.00 a flight hour duty pay only, nothing else, how many of you would take up the opportunity?
With reference to Flypuppy, there is nothing wrong with a fair days pay for a fair days work. That was not what I was implying and you very well know it. Please answer the question, yes you would or no you wouldn't. I'm curious to see what the response would be to my question as I remember just over a year ago when we ran the PPRuNe/Astraeus B737 Cadet scheme that over 200 of you who had the required qualifications applied. How many of you would apply again to those terms? How many of you would accept a type rating and job experience for even less?
Just food for thought.
If you were offered a job which included a jet type rating but would have to work for the next six months for, say £2.00 a flight hour duty pay only, nothing else, how many of you would take up the opportunity?
With reference to Flypuppy, there is nothing wrong with a fair days pay for a fair days work. That was not what I was implying and you very well know it. Please answer the question, yes you would or no you wouldn't. I'm curious to see what the response would be to my question as I remember just over a year ago when we ran the PPRuNe/Astraeus B737 Cadet scheme that over 200 of you who had the required qualifications applied. How many of you would apply again to those terms? How many of you would accept a type rating and job experience for even less?
Just food for thought.
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capt Danny
...to answer into your question; Oh yes, surely there would be some guys desperate enough to take even a job like that! (NOT including me...)
I would like to ask one question from you as well (and I would like to include all employers after "cheap" work force). Have you ever given even a single thought where this road is leading you all on the long run? Have you ever given a thought what motivates a young fellow to choose a pilot career?
It has become very clear to all of us pilots that you are taking the whole and full advantage of the lousy job market situation we are experiencing at the moment, but do you really think that this will last forever? Cos if you do, I think that you are wrong!!!
How are you going to attract young and educated people to spend all the money for (what's these days extremely expensive) initial training, force them to buy the type rating, sell them some experience on the right seat and then reward some lucky one with your £ 2,- pay scale??? HELLO??? Where do you think you will find drivers 10 years from here???
Let me quess the answer: You really don't care because,when that day finally arrives, YOU KNOW THAT YOUR COMPANY DOES NOT EVEN EXIST ANYMORE!!!
I would like to ask one question from you as well (and I would like to include all employers after "cheap" work force). Have you ever given even a single thought where this road is leading you all on the long run? Have you ever given a thought what motivates a young fellow to choose a pilot career?
It has become very clear to all of us pilots that you are taking the whole and full advantage of the lousy job market situation we are experiencing at the moment, but do you really think that this will last forever? Cos if you do, I think that you are wrong!!!
How are you going to attract young and educated people to spend all the money for (what's these days extremely expensive) initial training, force them to buy the type rating, sell them some experience on the right seat and then reward some lucky one with your £ 2,- pay scale??? HELLO??? Where do you think you will find drivers 10 years from here???
Let me quess the answer: You really don't care because,when that day finally arrives, YOU KNOW THAT YOUR COMPANY DOES NOT EVEN EXIST ANYMORE!!!
Last edited by Aviate378; 7th Nov 2003 at 23:24.
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Danny thought I should post a reply to this.
£2 an hour but you get the type rating, would I do it, at the risk of upsetting a few guys here to be honest the answer is yes.
This needs some clarification, as some cases are not as clear-cut as others are.
In my case at the age of 41 time is not on my side, after deciding on a career change three yrs ago, funding my own training, instructing for a pittance for a year and also having redundancy thrown at me last December I would say things really couldn't get a lot worse. I originally downsized my house to fund my training and now that situation presents itself again as I struggle to gain enough experience for the airlines to consider me. Hours at the moment around 750.
To all that have posted, the situation is not clear-cut. Although I dislike the idea of self funding type ratings or working for less than the what I think I'm worth, if the opportunity arose I would have to consider it.
Flying Farmer
£2 an hour but you get the type rating, would I do it, at the risk of upsetting a few guys here to be honest the answer is yes.
This needs some clarification, as some cases are not as clear-cut as others are.
In my case at the age of 41 time is not on my side, after deciding on a career change three yrs ago, funding my own training, instructing for a pittance for a year and also having redundancy thrown at me last December I would say things really couldn't get a lot worse. I originally downsized my house to fund my training and now that situation presents itself again as I struggle to gain enough experience for the airlines to consider me. Hours at the moment around 750.
To all that have posted, the situation is not clear-cut. Although I dislike the idea of self funding type ratings or working for less than the what I think I'm worth, if the opportunity arose I would have to consider it.
Flying Farmer
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to RTO
"....HAVE a job on excellent equipment with excellent pay. It's amazing to see how quickly people forget how it was, or fail to see themselves in a situation where you have to pay up thousands of pounds on top of the inflated loan that made you a pilot...."
I guess I'm one of those you were referring above, but let's just IMAGINE a situation where there would not be even a single qualified pilot available for any airline. Do you agree that, to be able to continue flying, the airlines would be forced to give full sponsorship from zero time untill fully type rated? And most probably, they would have to pay a fair salary from the beginning?
Okay, I admit, this is just dreaming, but do you see what I'm trying to proof here? If all unemployed pilots are now going to invest typeratings WITHOUT guaranteed job offer after successfull completion of the training and if everyone is willing to pay while working in order to gain some experience, does it really improve our chances to get a job OR is it just adding expences???
We should remember that these choises we are making today are going to affect the whole airline industry and our very own future. And if we really want to spend a whole fortune for our training & ratings and then work for free, I don't think that Airlines would have anything against it...
Final thought: We GET treated the way we LET others to treat us!
I guess I'm one of those you were referring above, but let's just IMAGINE a situation where there would not be even a single qualified pilot available for any airline. Do you agree that, to be able to continue flying, the airlines would be forced to give full sponsorship from zero time untill fully type rated? And most probably, they would have to pay a fair salary from the beginning?
Okay, I admit, this is just dreaming, but do you see what I'm trying to proof here? If all unemployed pilots are now going to invest typeratings WITHOUT guaranteed job offer after successfull completion of the training and if everyone is willing to pay while working in order to gain some experience, does it really improve our chances to get a job OR is it just adding expences???
We should remember that these choises we are making today are going to affect the whole airline industry and our very own future. And if we really want to spend a whole fortune for our training & ratings and then work for free, I don't think that Airlines would have anything against it...
Final thought: We GET treated the way we LET others to treat us!
Last edited by Aviate378; 7th Nov 2003 at 16:02.
>>>>If you were offered a job which included a jet type rating but would have to work for the next six months for, say £2.00 a flight hour duty pay only, nothing else, how many of you would take up the opportunity?<<<<
No I would not. I do not think airline pilots should effectively work for nothing under any circumstances.
Equally, I do not think hospital consultants should work for peanuts whilst they are learning the latest medical techniques.
Ditto for oils rig safety managers, nuclear power station controllers, paramedics, dentists, the military and anyone involved in safety critical work.
The job of an airline pilot is just to critical for training to be skimped in any way.
Even though we might love flying the following must be upheld:
Work = Pay.
No I would not. I do not think airline pilots should effectively work for nothing under any circumstances.
Equally, I do not think hospital consultants should work for peanuts whilst they are learning the latest medical techniques.
Ditto for oils rig safety managers, nuclear power station controllers, paramedics, dentists, the military and anyone involved in safety critical work.
The job of an airline pilot is just to critical for training to be skimped in any way.
Even though we might love flying the following must be upheld:
Work = Pay.
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£2.00 a month, Let's rename BALPA the Mother Theresa Institute for pilots.
Flying Farmer, This is the reason that starting commercial flying at your age was grounds for having your class one medical denied to you because of mental health issues.
Paying for ratings is deeply flawed, any company that is worth working for will pay for a rating and proper training.
Good Luck
Flying Farmer, This is the reason that starting commercial flying at your age was grounds for having your class one medical denied to you because of mental health issues.
Paying for ratings is deeply flawed, any company that is worth working for will pay for a rating and proper training.
Good Luck
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I would
Danny
I have answered your question earlier, but maybe I was not clear enough.
I would work for £ 2 /hour for 6 months if the company payed the type-rating. I'd rather get the funds to get through those 6 months and have a job than a loan and maybe a job.
Would the money not spend by the company in those 6 months be deducted from the bond?
JB
I have answered your question earlier, but maybe I was not clear enough.
I would work for £ 2 /hour for 6 months if the company payed the type-rating. I'd rather get the funds to get through those 6 months and have a job than a loan and maybe a job.
Would the money not spend by the company in those 6 months be deducted from the bond?
JB
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Dogma
guessing that was a tounge in cheek comment.
Yes it stinks paying for a type rating and I am all for employers paying for them.
Until recently I would have argued against self funding my own type rating, being the principled person I am, but my bills need to be paid and my family fed. 40 yrs old or 25 changes nothing and sticking to principles will not put food on my table!!
Try not to knock guys who are considering this route without knowing the facts behind the decision.
FF
guessing that was a tounge in cheek comment.
Yes it stinks paying for a type rating and I am all for employers paying for them.
Until recently I would have argued against self funding my own type rating, being the principled person I am, but my bills need to be paid and my family fed. 40 yrs old or 25 changes nothing and sticking to principles will not put food on my table!!
Try not to knock guys who are considering this route without knowing the facts behind the decision.
FF
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As many have mentioned, there is too much "pull up the ladder" happening here & I'm sure many don't realise the future of an airline career is being mapped out here.
If this carries on, every time you want to move on to a different company or fleet, it will be expected that you will always have to foot the bill for the rating - regardless of your time or experience
I'm afraid by being short sighted, this industry has only itself to blame
If this carries on, every time you want to move on to a different company or fleet, it will be expected that you will always have to foot the bill for the rating - regardless of your time or experience
I'm afraid by being short sighted, this industry has only itself to blame
aka Capt PPRuNe
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Just for information purposes, I remember when I was flying around in my Bandit back in 1994, about a third of all the pilots who had a couple of years experience flying turboprops went off and paid for their own B757 or B737 type ratings. Most of them applied for and got jobs with the large IT airlines.
If there is anyone who set out to get their licence and didn't consider that once they had their licence that it would be a cut throat world out there, subject to market forces for the relaively few jobs that would become available on jet equipment, then they should seriously reconsider their prospects. The market will change and I believe that we are at the beginning of an upturn which will manifest itself when we see sponsorships being advertised once again.
Unless you live in some kind of communist era state where jobs are guaranteed for everyone irrespective of market forces then you are not going to see a utopia where all the airlines bosses go all mushy and decide that they will recruit loads of freshly licenced fATPL's and put them through type rating courses with reducing bonds over 3 years and a guarantee that there will be no lay-offs. If you want to get angry with anyone then blame Al Quaida and SARS for the present downturn in the market and the lack of jet jobs. Blaming the recruitment companies and those that offer type ratings for exploiting the situation is futile. We live in a capitalist society and that is the way the market operates.
I don't believe many of you out there who have a fATPL but no experience would turn down a type rating and six months of line experience (no bond beyond the 6 months) for little more than flight duty pay. Whilst it would be nice if all the airlines were offering sonsorships for cadets, that is not the case and anyway, those of you who went down the self improver route were not eligible for those cadetships anyway.
Be honest with yourselves. There are very few jet jobs available for newly licenced, low experience pilots. At the moment there are some opportunities for a select few who are able to raise the money and are prepared to pay for their own type rating. It is an extremely risky venture but for some it will pay off. No one is forcing anyone to pay for a rating. It is a choice and will be argued to death.
Those of you who claim that the quality of pilots who pay for their own rating must somehow be lower have very little idea of what is actually required and are probably unsure of your abilities and what will be required of you during and after a course. To blame others who are prepared to take the risk for the lack of opportunities available for you will not get you anywhere.
Once the demand for pilots goes up again, and I believe that it is swinging in that direction, you will find that those of you who waited patiently will get on that bottom rung of the ladder. Those that took the risk and were successful by paying for their own type rating will be that much further up that ladder. It's a choice. Just pity those who do pay for a type rating but are unable to gain employment as there will also be a few of them about too.
If you are going to invest any money in your future as a pilot then you could do much worse than pay to see if you have the qualities and psyche that will be expected of you in your planned future carreer. Unfortunately, for many who go to the expense of gaining a licence, they are quite shocked at how cut throat the real world is out there. Remember that the number of applicants for every job will outweigh vacancies by about 5 to 1 or more.
Just remember that no one is forcing anyone to pay for a type rating. By using that analogy anyone who was not an ab-initio cadet must have been 'forced' to pay for their fATPL... I don't think so.
If there is anyone who set out to get their licence and didn't consider that once they had their licence that it would be a cut throat world out there, subject to market forces for the relaively few jobs that would become available on jet equipment, then they should seriously reconsider their prospects. The market will change and I believe that we are at the beginning of an upturn which will manifest itself when we see sponsorships being advertised once again.
Unless you live in some kind of communist era state where jobs are guaranteed for everyone irrespective of market forces then you are not going to see a utopia where all the airlines bosses go all mushy and decide that they will recruit loads of freshly licenced fATPL's and put them through type rating courses with reducing bonds over 3 years and a guarantee that there will be no lay-offs. If you want to get angry with anyone then blame Al Quaida and SARS for the present downturn in the market and the lack of jet jobs. Blaming the recruitment companies and those that offer type ratings for exploiting the situation is futile. We live in a capitalist society and that is the way the market operates.
I don't believe many of you out there who have a fATPL but no experience would turn down a type rating and six months of line experience (no bond beyond the 6 months) for little more than flight duty pay. Whilst it would be nice if all the airlines were offering sonsorships for cadets, that is not the case and anyway, those of you who went down the self improver route were not eligible for those cadetships anyway.
Be honest with yourselves. There are very few jet jobs available for newly licenced, low experience pilots. At the moment there are some opportunities for a select few who are able to raise the money and are prepared to pay for their own type rating. It is an extremely risky venture but for some it will pay off. No one is forcing anyone to pay for a rating. It is a choice and will be argued to death.
Those of you who claim that the quality of pilots who pay for their own rating must somehow be lower have very little idea of what is actually required and are probably unsure of your abilities and what will be required of you during and after a course. To blame others who are prepared to take the risk for the lack of opportunities available for you will not get you anywhere.
Once the demand for pilots goes up again, and I believe that it is swinging in that direction, you will find that those of you who waited patiently will get on that bottom rung of the ladder. Those that took the risk and were successful by paying for their own type rating will be that much further up that ladder. It's a choice. Just pity those who do pay for a type rating but are unable to gain employment as there will also be a few of them about too.
If you are going to invest any money in your future as a pilot then you could do much worse than pay to see if you have the qualities and psyche that will be expected of you in your planned future carreer. Unfortunately, for many who go to the expense of gaining a licence, they are quite shocked at how cut throat the real world is out there. Remember that the number of applicants for every job will outweigh vacancies by about 5 to 1 or more.
Just remember that no one is forcing anyone to pay for a type rating. By using that analogy anyone who was not an ab-initio cadet must have been 'forced' to pay for their fATPL... I don't think so.
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Hi Danny,
Not wishing to sound like an aviational Judas, but I'm prepared to undercut all my fellow Wannabes and request only £1.50 an hour flight pay.
I always thought that the Astraeus sponsorship scheme was bold, particularly for a young airline. If such an offer came along again I would gladly apply.
So can we have another sponsorship scheme please and perhaps limit applications to fATPL holders aged between 38 and 40 with over 670 hours but under 710 and slightly balding, it is nearly christmas after all
cheers
MJR
Not wishing to sound like an aviational Judas, but I'm prepared to undercut all my fellow Wannabes and request only £1.50 an hour flight pay.
I always thought that the Astraeus sponsorship scheme was bold, particularly for a young airline. If such an offer came along again I would gladly apply.
So can we have another sponsorship scheme please and perhaps limit applications to fATPL holders aged between 38 and 40 with over 670 hours but under 710 and slightly balding, it is nearly christmas after all
cheers
MJR
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Danny to answer your question; NO.
I cannot afford to work for a maximum possible take home pay of £180 per month.
If I was single I would maybe consider it. £180 would maybe just cover my monthly groceries and nappies bill.
What about the safety implications of such an offer?
Let's take an imaginary situation:
Pilot X is in his mid-30's, got 2 young kids a wife and a mortgage. He has used up all his savings and re-mortgaged part of his house to pay for flight training. The offer of a position in an airline comes along following your proposal; £2.00 per flight hour, nothing else. Pilot X doesnt live in the S.E. of England, and the airline is based out of LHR, as an example. Pilot X needs to find accomodation close to the airport. There isnt a chance he could cover any rented accom for £180 per month, so whatever savings he has left gets used up, and maybe another loan to cover living expenses.
Everything is going tickety boo for Pilot X, ground training is completed LPC/OPC passed etc etc, he is now flying the line and the financial worries are starting to slip away, apart from the phone calls from his wife asking when he is next going to be coming home?, when can I buy the kids new clothes? when is that airline going to start paying you? The usual sort of things that wives ask. Then one day pilot X has been working close to the monthly limit, he is tired, getting a bit tetchy. His missus manages to get in touch with him to let him know that the central heating boiler has packed up and there is no warmth or hot water in the house, a repair man has been and the estimate for a new boiler is £1800. Where is the money going to come from? Pilot X is now under considerable strain, not only from a demanding job, but also from his personal life. His family is now really suffering because he wants to fly a 737. Too late to worry about that, the captain is badgering him for loadsheets, LMCs, weather charts etc etc. The business of flying keeps his family worries at bay for a while, but they are still there. Once established in the cruise, pilot X starts to worry about his family, no hot water for the kids to wash, £1800 to find for a boiler, only just enough money to scrape through each month, credit cards maxed out, car making a funny noise, is that going to cost money?
Pilot X misses 2 radio calls, the captain is getting pissed off with his new F/O. The wx at destination is at or below minimums. CB's and +TSRA being reported. Stress level in the flightdeck starting to increase, workload going up. Pilot X can't totally get rid of the worries in his mind. He's not concentrating fully on the job, because of the money worries.
I could carry on with the mythical pilot X, but I think you get the gist of where I am going with it?
A lower salary while someone is under training is reasonable, even if it just enough to cover at least living expenses (I don't mean that it includes mortgages etc, the wife can put on a short skirt and go down the docks and earn enough for that ), and would ease the burden of trying to live as well as learning to fly a very expensive piece of aluminium around at 3/4 the speed of sound.
Maybe this is also some food for thought?
I cannot afford to work for a maximum possible take home pay of £180 per month.
If I was single I would maybe consider it. £180 would maybe just cover my monthly groceries and nappies bill.
What about the safety implications of such an offer?
Let's take an imaginary situation:
Pilot X is in his mid-30's, got 2 young kids a wife and a mortgage. He has used up all his savings and re-mortgaged part of his house to pay for flight training. The offer of a position in an airline comes along following your proposal; £2.00 per flight hour, nothing else. Pilot X doesnt live in the S.E. of England, and the airline is based out of LHR, as an example. Pilot X needs to find accomodation close to the airport. There isnt a chance he could cover any rented accom for £180 per month, so whatever savings he has left gets used up, and maybe another loan to cover living expenses.
Everything is going tickety boo for Pilot X, ground training is completed LPC/OPC passed etc etc, he is now flying the line and the financial worries are starting to slip away, apart from the phone calls from his wife asking when he is next going to be coming home?, when can I buy the kids new clothes? when is that airline going to start paying you? The usual sort of things that wives ask. Then one day pilot X has been working close to the monthly limit, he is tired, getting a bit tetchy. His missus manages to get in touch with him to let him know that the central heating boiler has packed up and there is no warmth or hot water in the house, a repair man has been and the estimate for a new boiler is £1800. Where is the money going to come from? Pilot X is now under considerable strain, not only from a demanding job, but also from his personal life. His family is now really suffering because he wants to fly a 737. Too late to worry about that, the captain is badgering him for loadsheets, LMCs, weather charts etc etc. The business of flying keeps his family worries at bay for a while, but they are still there. Once established in the cruise, pilot X starts to worry about his family, no hot water for the kids to wash, £1800 to find for a boiler, only just enough money to scrape through each month, credit cards maxed out, car making a funny noise, is that going to cost money?
Pilot X misses 2 radio calls, the captain is getting pissed off with his new F/O. The wx at destination is at or below minimums. CB's and +TSRA being reported. Stress level in the flightdeck starting to increase, workload going up. Pilot X can't totally get rid of the worries in his mind. He's not concentrating fully on the job, because of the money worries.
I could carry on with the mythical pilot X, but I think you get the gist of where I am going with it?
A lower salary while someone is under training is reasonable, even if it just enough to cover at least living expenses (I don't mean that it includes mortgages etc, the wife can put on a short skirt and go down the docks and earn enough for that
), and would ease the burden of trying to live as well as learning to fly a very expensive piece of aluminium around at 3/4 the speed of sound. Maybe this is also some food for thought?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Pups,
That is so close to the truth it ain't funny. We have guys with us who are working 2 jobs because the FO's salary is so low. (Supporting a family with 2 teenage kids). Sleep is a precious comodity for him.
That is so close to the truth it ain't funny. We have guys with us who are working 2 jobs because the FO's salary is so low. (Supporting a family with 2 teenage kids). Sleep is a precious comodity for him.
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Flypuppy.
Nice peace of literature. You should consider a carreer in writing.
I think the way you exposed it clearly explains what most people mean with safety when adressing this issue. It is not that pilots that pay for their own ratings are no good piloting, they are as good or as bad as any other. That is not what people mean, but that the added stresses, as a result of stretching ones financial resources to the max and beyond, can compromise safety in the cock-pit to a greater extent than under normal circumstances.
another thought!
Let's take an average pilot's carreer. During the 30 years or so of flying an average pilot would fly on average about 4 different types. Imagine that he has to pay for each of them, let's say 40.000 Euros a pop. That makes a total of 160.000 Euros of (unnescessary) post ATPL training expenses. If we add to this the average cost of 60.000 Euros for flight training up to ATPL level, we get a lifetime total of 220.000 Euros.
Does anyone know of a more expensive carreer!
Nice peace of literature. You should consider a carreer in writing.
I think the way you exposed it clearly explains what most people mean with safety when adressing this issue. It is not that pilots that pay for their own ratings are no good piloting, they are as good or as bad as any other. That is not what people mean, but that the added stresses, as a result of stretching ones financial resources to the max and beyond, can compromise safety in the cock-pit to a greater extent than under normal circumstances.
another thought!
Let's take an average pilot's carreer. During the 30 years or so of flying an average pilot would fly on average about 4 different types. Imagine that he has to pay for each of them, let's say 40.000 Euros a pop. That makes a total of 160.000 Euros of (unnescessary) post ATPL training expenses. If we add to this the average cost of 60.000 Euros for flight training up to ATPL level, we get a lifetime total of 220.000 Euros.
Does anyone know of a more expensive carreer!
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Old King Cole,
Are you really saying that the experience and knowledge of a guys who have logged up 1000s of hours on “L1011, B747-200, RJ100, BAC1-11, A300”, to quote you, should be ignored when it comes to them applying for a job as a 737 driver? There’s nothing magic about the 737, other than it happens to be the Plane of the Moment. Let’s wait for another 5-10 years, when a replacement arrives- different aircraft, and, by then, different airlines. Will the experience of the 737 drivers count for anything if the Ryanairs and Easyjets of today go belly up? There they are- 1000s of hours on the 737, which has been displaced as flavour of the decade.
The whole area of self paid type ratings with no guarantee of a job is a scam. A person should receive a day’s pay for a day’s work.
Danny
To answer your question - the answer is yes- BUT- only if the 6 months of penury is compensated thereafter with a long term Contract (not 6- 12 months) which assures me that I will be remunerated by the airline on a pay scale above the Industry Standard, which will make up for my 6 months of working “at risk”. After all, if I take the risk of helping an airline out for no pay, in return for a Type Rating, (also taking a risk that the airline will not go bust in the foreseeable future,) then the there must be a balancing gesture on your part.
Are you really saying that the experience and knowledge of a guys who have logged up 1000s of hours on “L1011, B747-200, RJ100, BAC1-11, A300”, to quote you, should be ignored when it comes to them applying for a job as a 737 driver? There’s nothing magic about the 737, other than it happens to be the Plane of the Moment. Let’s wait for another 5-10 years, when a replacement arrives- different aircraft, and, by then, different airlines. Will the experience of the 737 drivers count for anything if the Ryanairs and Easyjets of today go belly up? There they are- 1000s of hours on the 737, which has been displaced as flavour of the decade.
The whole area of self paid type ratings with no guarantee of a job is a scam. A person should receive a day’s pay for a day’s work.
Danny
To answer your question - the answer is yes- BUT- only if the 6 months of penury is compensated thereafter with a long term Contract (not 6- 12 months) which assures me that I will be remunerated by the airline on a pay scale above the Industry Standard, which will make up for my 6 months of working “at risk”. After all, if I take the risk of helping an airline out for no pay, in return for a Type Rating, (also taking a risk that the airline will not go bust in the foreseeable future,) then the there must be a balancing gesture on your part.