smartcol

I like possibly many others have been attracted by the 737 Type Rating threads, and instead of reading about people slagging each other. I have started a new thread for some straight answers.

I have spoken with Bond and there scheme is interesting however a couple of points need answered.

1) How much more likely am I to get a job if I go to an airline with 400 hours, 100 on 737 Type Rated ? As apposed to an instructor with 1000 hours. Is the difference worth £25,000 ?

2) Has anyone done or know of anyone who has done a self sposored rating and managed to gain employment.

3) I have tried to speak to some airlines and asked them if they would be more interested in me if I had this however they are dificult to get answers from, understandably. Realistically who could I start speaking to with regards future employment after the rating ?

4) Is this generally a good idea ?

Thanks guys for any help you can give, I am very confused.

WWW, lets not try and fall out on this one ! ! !

pjdj777

Smartcol

I suspect it will be difficult for you to get definitive answers, however I can try to answer some of your questions:

1) How long is a piece of string? Sorry I don't mean to be pedantic but it's for you to decide whether it's worth the investment. However I don't know of any instructors who are going straight into the RHS of a jet right now, but a number of self spnsored guys are.

2) I know of several who have done the self sponsored rating at Bond and got paid employment, at least six have joined Astraeus on six month contracts, don't know how many will be kept on in the winter. Three others joined easyJet and at least one person has joined BMIbaby.

3) The Bond course gives you a rating on the 737 300-900, so the airlines you would be talking to are those which operate these types.

4) Is this a good idea? No clear answer again I'm afraid, for some guys it has worked for others it hasn't. Winter is coming and so Astraeus won't be looking to take anybody else on again until next year ready for the summer season.

What I would say is go in with your eyes open, nobody is going to tell you "yes it's great - do it!" or "yes you'll get a job out of it" because no one can guarantee you this,but I can see that a lot of people here will tell you it's a waste of time and money.

If you do go for it it is a lot of hard work, get your head down and do your best at the course.

Best of luck

Regards

Paul

no sponsor

I don't think its fair to say the difference is 25K. If it takes you 12 months to do those 600 hours as an FI, then there is a bigger opporunity cost than your figures suggest. I agree that it would be the more expensive route in the end, but not 25K.

smartcol

Point taken .. no sponsor, but would you do it ?

no sponsor

Yes I would. But with a caveat. I would only do it with the 100 hrs flying the line, I would not do it with just the six take-off and landings.

G-SPOTs Lost

I would like to make a bold prediction

I propose that in 1-2 years time, paying for a type rating will be a thing of the past. With a reasonable amount of experience Airlines will be positively tripping over themselves to recruit suitable applicants.

Easyjet have well over 100 buses on order, albeit a lot of these pencilled in to replace the 737. Its fair to assume that these 73's wont be being turned into razor blades just yet. This is just one airlines story, there are others.


We should be worried about train drivers retraining to fATPL's
London-Glasgow by train - over 5 hours - £102 one way
London-Glasgow by ezy 1hr.15 and less than £40.00
low cost carrying is with us to stay people whether its Bandeirantes or 737's

There are Pilot job vacancies out there, the problem is that they aren't being filled. Existing crews are working harder.

£25000 will take years to pay off, cant you just give it another 18-24 months. Try instructing its not all that bad and a very good source of hours. The year you do instructing can probably put you in real terms 2 years nearer a command when things do pick up...Still borrow the 25k and buy a boxster with the change from an FI rating (Which is about the only rating you can use and earn with at the moment, Forget IR's)

We all want the dream job in the RHS of a heavyish a/c. Would you pay the extra £25k to avoid an 18 month delay???

A Very Civil Pilot

I have a 737 rating, and line flying experience - paid for by my airline. I don't have a job anymore. I'm a bit pi$$ed off. If I had paid £25,000, I'd be really pi$$ed off! A rating is no guarentee of a job, but right time, right place is.

MJR

Hi ya PJ,

Long time no hear, and yes your absolutely right there are no instructors in this part of the world getting a right hand seat on anything apart from a PA28.

I'd consider doing it myself however as you can see from this thread that there are still a number of type-rated people who cant find work. However on saturday there's another lottery and ...................

cheers


MJR

smartcol

I understand what some are saying about waiting, but surely you can't wait forever, what are you supposed to do whilst you wait around ?

Unfortunetly this is really the worst time of year to be thinking about instructing anyway, or maybe even the type rating, I think I would wait until January to start, it takes 3 months with the line training, so I would be ripe for the summer burst.

It is 25k but if you look at it as a business investement, then if you get a return in wage of 40k and you are doing what you want to be doing. I could live with paying 5k per year back for 5 years, because 40k is a hell of a lot more than i earn at the moment, so is 35k !

Plus I managed to get the NVQ off my course at Cabair and in the end it cost me about £27,000. So if I add the 25k for the type rating then that is just the same as the guys at Oxford are paying for their "Airline Preparation Course".

Crikey, I really don't know what to do. I think that if I can affford it the type rating is a great option, but if I do it and then I get no job, that is disaster, well and truly.

What about this placement scheme that Eaglejet do. You do a type rating with base check 0 hours, minimum charge, 19k at best, then you pay Eaglejet 17k and you get a placement with an airline in the far east for 300 hours line experience. Hell of a lot of money, but 300 hours is better than 100 and a total of 36k. I think that the 25k for Bond does not include VAT so that brings it upto 32k. 4k extra when talking that terms of figures is worth 200 hours. Nearly 5 months work also, and it is more than likely you will be kept on by that airline.

What is the situation for a pilot with 300 hours far east flying returning to the UK ? Is it looked upon as favourably as UK time ?

MJR

Smartcol I have had similar thoughts myself with regard to looking at it as an investment. However if all the rumours are true about the start of the recovery next year then you could end up kicking yourself when you find that your new colleagues have joined the same airline without paying for their type rating. However you may consider it moves you up the seniority ladder and you have no bond. My concern is that if an abundance of people pursue their own type rating then this will provide another tier in the rise to being a commercial pilot and hence rather than being fATPL holders with no job we will be 737 rated pilots with no job.
I know this doesn't help as I dont think there is a definitive answer to your question.

cheers

MJR

eagerbeaver

I bought a rating and got a job 2 weeks later, but.... and this is a very big but it is all about right place right time. I rang the airline to inquire about my application told them ihad a rating and i was asked to attend and inteview next day got to the sim passed etc etc etc. The fact that i had the rating helped but i dont think i could have been luckier really. THIS IS NOT COMMON, i sometimes feel a little bit awkward amongst my peers because i bought a rating because i believe it is not ethical (which is a view shared by the majority) then again i have to have that extra little bit to put me above the other people who are just as good and just as keen as I (well not as good!) I say go for it if you can afford it 'cause you wont have any problems when you are on your way to tenerife or somewhere else foreign warm and pleasant.

Dont forget you have to cover living expenses etc. I done about £20000 in total.

let this thread not turn into a slagging match

Sick Squid

It is most fundamentally not ethical, in my personal opinion, but sadly it is a fact of the industry, and more precisely a fact of the cyclical nature of the industry. As such, paying for one's own rating is a function of the economic model that governs at the moment one is in the market for a job.

I mean, I haven't been too long at the job really, having started my PPL in late 1987 but I've seen it come and go even in that time. I do remember the tales around the flying club of people literally walking into jobs at that time, the airlines were gagging for them.... indeed, the instructor who signed me off for my first solo walked onto the 748 in British Airways... (as an aside, I handed an Airbus 320 over to him downroute about 4 months back, and it was a very sweet moment.) But by the time I'd been fortunate enough to do the sponsorship route and come out the other end there were almost zero jobs to be had, and I paid for Perf C and was about to do whatever rating it took to get a night mail job I'd been offered by one of the instructors at Prestwick who was setting up an operation out of Carlisle, and had asked a few of the then unemployed cadets to fly for him.

My self-sponsored contemporaries were in a dire place. Two of them paid for ratings with Midland on the 737, with the promise of an interview and a potential job offer. No such offer appeared, and no other people were willing to take on low-time 737 rated people with no relevant line experience. Both are still very well paid ATCO's in Scottish to this day.. had they done 320 ratings back then they would have been snapped up, as for a while there were no unemplyed 320 rated guys in the UK at that time. One could argue their research and preparation was flawed. Two very good friends paid for shed ratings at that time.. early to mid-90's post Gulf War.. one is base captiain for a major IT operator on the 757, and the other an RJ Captain now. Other airlines, such as Royal Brunei demanded a type rating before you would be considered for a job, so several paid BA and did the 757 rating at Cranebank. I believe all have moved on since, many to Emirates.

Airlines at the top of the food-chain will as has been said elsewhere generally type-rate their own people as they hold their own TRTO approval, and have a tried and trusted training department (I refer to the Emirates, BA's, Cathay Pacifics, Virgins of this World.) Other airlines that have to contract-out type-training will pay the bill or not based simply upon the basic economics of the day.. at the moment, the best people on the market will be available to them having had to pay for their rating; in rich years, those same people will be snapped up by the major players. Do the sums, it is simple economics. As I said, I neither like it, nor agree with it, but there it is... if you were running an airline, given the margins you know apply in the industry ( you do know the margins, don't you, that is basic homework for ANY job) then what would you do?

My advice to wannabe Airline pilots stands, as I give out whenever I do one of the PPRuNE talks; just because YOU have the money, and believe YOU are Airline pilot material, you very well may not be in the eyes of the Airlines. Therefore it is in your own financial and professional interests to ensure you have been through as many of the potential flaming hoops you will be set, and passed them before parting with your money. Whether you do that independently via GAPAN or any other organisation, or choose a TRTO who will interview you before taking your cheque (because believe it or not it is not in their interests to have unacceptable students who are either unable to pass the course, or not of the personality to work in an airline environment) is up to you, but just because you want it and have the cash doesn't mean you will be suitable.

Airlines will always recruit the best people who front-up in front of them on the day, and they recruit future Captains, not career First-Officers. Given the economics that apply at the time, it is up to you to make sure you first of all simply CAN fit that bill, and then make sure you DO fit that bill. If it includes paying for a type rating on the type you want to fly, and you can't afford it yet still want to do it, then put that job on hold and go for one you CAN get. Complaining about the economics of the day will get you nowhere.

A bit harsh, but true, and as I said before I wish it were not so. But it is. Times WILL change again, but your crystal ball is as good as mine on when. After all, a little bit of white powder on the Tube, and it will just keep going for another few years....... your call.

Squid

pjdj777

Very well said Squid, and I can only second what you have said about fronting up at the interview and what it entails to get a job.

I'd just like to add that I've seen some real "ace of base" type pilots come through who can fly the @rse off the thing but who's attitude has left a lot to be desired, and as a result no job offer from the bods up top.

MJR

Good to hear from you mate, how's life at my fave flying school?

Wee Weasley Welshman

Smartcol - I don't think we will fall out over this one. An interesting and genuine question that generates a very useful thread. Thank you.

Whether to do it or not? Depends on how much £25,000 is to you and how good you are. If its a lot but not cripling and you are a sharp young thing then do it. If its your left kidney and you're Joe Average then maybe not.

One point. Don't get too excited about easyJets Airbus order. I hardly consider it a commercial secret that the vast majority of those additional aircraft are going to be based on the continent. In which case a 20 something low time British pilot is probably going to lose out to foreign national pilots who live in the country in question. Lots of whom are available with Airbus ratings and experience from struggling continental airlines.

If you think things are bad for Wannabes in the UK you just try talking to ones in Spain, Italy and France. It is Wannabes in those countries that are most likely to benefit from both EZYs and FRAs current order books...

A final point. If you do a 737 rating you are competing with a lot of other people who have and will do the same thing. If you did a - say - Dash 8 rating then there are far fewer competitors. I know there are less jobs but I am not sure the ratio is favourable to the 737.

Good luck,

WWW

Sheep Guts

Smartcol,
With your experience level at the Moment I would try and get somemore experience in smaller types. Your question is simple to Answer the Guy with 1000 hrs and Rating will look much better to the recruiters.

If you are going ahead with a rating I would strongly suggest not paying for a Meduim size Turbo Prop, as WWW suggests. You might aswell get a Jet Rating and jump that stage if you can. A Dash Rating will cost the same or even more and may not give you what you want. A Boeing Rating or Airbus Rating with time on Type is a Ticket to the World if you are willing to travel to get that job.

I myself am contemplating a Type, but will only do so if the Job is in ths Bag otherwise its a loss that could go wanting.

I have mates that have donewell with Self Sponsored type ratings and also heard disaster stories. Its a gamble that can pay off.

Just my 2cents worth

Sheep

smartcol

Thanks for the comments guys, still really unsure, think I might do an instructor rating and hang fire for a while.

Am going to contact some more airlines and see what there reaction is to it.

Having spoken to 4 operators personally so far, there are mixed reactions. 2 say yes, we would consider you and 2 say no we prefer to TR our own.

Dificult.

checks-complete

One point...

I looked into this a while ago and was told.....
A 737 type rating, unused and over 3 months old is next to useless in the eyes of those that matter.

Made me stop and think...