AAL - Although this is a tragic accident, your comments are completely accurate. How many African Cargo Airlines have to crash before the EEU and others realise that there is no Safety Oversight or Compliance in these countries. (How can there be with the lack of infrastructure and funding to monitor these 'offshore' airlines especially with the more modern aircraft types such as the MD11). Avient have a dubious reputation at best and this accident will put them very much under the spotlight with the safety authorities which is so it should be. Our hearts go out to the familes and friends of the crew members that have lost their lives, they deserved better.

templarmaster
 

Heart felt sympathy to family and friends of the MD11 crew that died and a swift recovery and repatriation to the surviviors.

I hope the cause of this accident was not overloading. when I worked for Avient, this subject was always a bugbear, we would ask the MD what payload to use for FPL purposes and the same reply came back "as much as you can get on", when he felt the payload was not enough - a re-clear FPL was run to get more on.

We will have to wait and see.

RIP the Crew

What can I say. Very sad. Won't speculate, but having flown for them.......
Hope Mr. Smith stands by the families of the deceased, I am sure Jane will do her level best to do everything that she can. 2/5 of the fleet gone in a couple of weeks.

Another Halifax?
 

This is eerily similar to MK 747 at Halifax... let us hope that the Chinese investigators do as good a job as the Canadians in getting the facts right. The most positive outcome of Halifax was forcing MK off of an African register of convenience and "going legit". Perhaps we can (and should) expect a similar outcome for Avient?

This particular MD11F (ex Varig Log) had the lower Landing Weight Limit
(a $500k paperwork upgrade if you can afford it) and Avient were only offering a commercial nett payload to the Brokers of 82,000 Kilos compared to 85T-87T nett payload that can be carried by LH/World etc.

I was appalled when I saw the Avient website today, at the very least the company could have made a statement that their immediate concern was for the crew and their families, instead all the world got was a cold and insensitive message. Wake up Mr Smith, right now the industry has you under the spotlight and you have failed at the first hurdle. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Saw that also and would have to say I was very disappointed but, unfortunately, not at all surprised.

For anyone who hasn't seen it the statement was;

Rgds
AAO

Teplarmaster
 

Well Mr Smith may have got is act slightly together "a response team", He had no such team available before he moved ops from LGW. It was call him, the technical director and the LGW office manager. No accident procedures, no dedicated emergancy cell, i.e. phone lines etc., So I guess his response team is probably him and the tech director.
With regards to a statement with regards to the crew, Mr. Smith does not appear to be a caring employer

Of course you were expecting Avient to gather 150 heads strong team and setup a toll-free call centre, breaking news every 15 minutes on all channels etc? Get a life, this is an all-cargo operation with a few airframes.

Statement quoted looks like taken from emergency response plan, we have something very similar, just a bunch of templates.

But isn't that what the use of the phrase "At this time, the full resources of Avient's accident response team have been mobilised" is trying to imply??

Absolutely not. Maybe this is something what other people imagined. What Avient press release says is approaprite resources has been allocated. I have no idea what their resources are but 2-3 people would be enough, one to cover MX side follow up and records preservasion, another one OPS side and dispatch docs, one more to talk to families, insurance and customer. Been there, done that. There is nil public interest to this accident, like to most other all-cargo accidents.

What you think they should do and how many people should be there? In case you don't know there is very little involvement required from airline side at initial stage, only factual information. Airline reps are normally not allowed on site at all. The rest is just PR is you want to compare it to AirFrance case.

MK Airlines managed to survive four total hull loss accidents.

Hope everything is correct with the insurance so at least the crews families get something.

Sad that Avient has owned only one month the aircraft.

Varig flew with the aircraft under registration PR-LGD JetPhotos.Net Photo » PR-LGD (CN: 48408) Varig Log McDonnell Douglas MD-11(F) by Jeroen Stroes

Previous owner was also Korean Airlines!

Safety Oversight
 

It is absolutely tragic that three experienced aviators have lost their lives in this awful accident. RIP Guys :sad:

I truly hope that they have not been let down by a lack of regulation which appears to allow airlines such as Avient to continue worldwide operations without any real safety oversight and effectively allows them to operate under a flag of convenience. The company aircraft rarely, if ever, operate to Zimbabwe, so there is little chance for the controlling authority to maintain an effective regime of oversight.

I would very much doubt that the authority in question have the necessary resources to effectively manage the safety of any airline operating outside of its boarders, let alone an airline which has its command and control based in the United Kingdom with an operational base in Liege, Belgium, even if it does have a pseusdo airline HQ in Harare.

It will be interesting to see what the FAA/NTSB/CAAC accident investigators conclude with regard to the introduction of a new aircraft type onto the Avient Air Operators Certificate and whether all the requisit elements for this operation were sufficiently in place to support its introduction to revenue service.

Missing the Point
 

Ask yourself this. Nearly 10 years safe operation with DC10 (yes the odd engine blow up, RTO etc. but who doesn't) and quite a few SAFA inspections in that time. Nothing to endorse any of the frankly vitriolic comments found on this site. So until the investigation is done, and we are availed of the cause of the crash, please could we in the name of good sense and with respect to the dead, keep to facts and not speculation. Rumour network it may be but trying to tie a possible over-rotation/power-loss to there being a Z Registration on the fuselage, even for me is pretty far fetched. The fact that an aircraft doesn't have to meet EASA rules to fly in and out of Euroland, is probably true of 3/4 of the worlds fleets. Nonetheless, everyone has to meet basic ICAO standards, which are more than fit for purpose. Even with the might of EASA regulating, inspecting, legislating and general 'red-taping', EU carriers are still killing people.

Rant over :ugh:

Avient is still quite active
 

Z-ALT during touchdown today (29-11-2009) at Liege (Belgium):

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/905/zalt.jpg

I presume Avient is in the spotlight and will be closely watched by SAFA teams and others but companies like this have their ways to survive. I am sure that this tragic loss won't close them down immediately.

Foxy 2600
 

You joined Prune in 2005.

I appreciate what you're saying, but asking for what you are is a little naive on this forum. It's what people DO. Every single accident posted here, gets a chorus of theories about causes - in bad taste or not.

You've only to listen to people discussing a football match to know that's what humans do - all the time. Now you'll want to say (quite reasonably) 'but this is different - people have died' - and you'd be right, people have. But will it make any difference to those who 'must' propose their theory, or those that hate the company for reasons various? I doubt it.

There are quite a few people on this particular thread who have personal experience with the company and AS - the comment about 10 years safe flying rather rankled with me - if you only knew (perhaps you DO know, because I don't know WHO I'm talking to). Some of the 'stories' (I am aware of the law) would make your toes curl.

Personally, I am very sorry for those involved, especially for their next of kin and the genuine guys and girls working for the company, it's a tragedy for all concerned.

I really, really hope that insurance is in place, rather than 'It's OK, Andrew will look after you'. He can only DO that IF, he has the means and if he wants to.

What happens if he doesn't want to defies imagination (IF that regime is still in force).

As for the cause of the accident, I would say it's pretty irrelevant just at the moment - that'll be established later. You cannot reasonably expect people in this business not to theorise, however right and noble your reasons.

Boeing Statement on MD-11 Freighter Crash in Shanghai
 

# # #
Contact:
Sandy Angers
Boeing Commercial Airplanes
+1 206-851-7974 (mobile)

foxy2600
 

HERE HERE,well said,some sense at last !!:ok:

There is a wikipedia page for those who are interested by the case
Avient Aviation Flight 324 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Remember it's wikipedia, anybody can edit and add facts linked to sources. it'll then a lot easier to find information in the future, when all blog/forum/news pages will be gone.

Acid-drop,

Just in case it was you making this wiki page, I suggest you to reconsider crashed possibly because of tail-strike during take-off roll wording. Airplanes are rarely crashing because of tail-strike as such.

Not missing the point
 

Foxy2600, your rant about the irrelevance of the country of registration is not well made. Statistically, 50 percent of accidents are caused by pilot error, 25 percent by mechanical failure and the rest by a variety of reasons. The accident rate of African cargo operators is amongst the worst in the world. QED pilots of African registered freighters crash more than most.
This is a rumour network for professional aviators, many of whom are affected by these events and therefore speculation and assumption are it's raison d'etre. There are plenty of places to go and read the factual reports of aircraft crashes if that is what you want to see.
As a resident of "Euroland" I expect the regulators to ensure the safe and lawful operation of aircraft in our skies. I have already stated that the most positive outcome of Halifax was forcing MK to get a G- reg and if Avient wish to continue their operations in Europe I hope the politicos will finally see the light and prohibit their "flag of convenience".
CM

I am not the main author of the page, I just give the link here to share.
In fact, if you believe that something is wrong, the best is probably to edit the page and correct it. It would be good for everybody to not jump into conclusion too fast but it's also good to discuss about the possibilities.

Flag of Convenience
 

I know for a fact that earlier this year Avient were making moves towards employing more technical personnel and transferring their aircraft to a European register.

This process may well have been affected by the move from Vatry to LGG.

I tell you something I would love to see how they get on attempting to register with the BCAA!:eek:

Compare the costs of setting up and getting a business going in a first world country vs a third world one.

Third world will give you lower costs, less supervision and lower standards to meet in most areas. Once your business has grown and you need to go legitimate for further expansion, register everything in a first world country and continue on from there.

A few hundred thousand US$ and a beat up 1960/1970s airframe won't get you far in the EU but will probably get you going in Africa.

From Flightglobal
 

Investigators analysing CVR and FDR from crashed MD-11F

Investigators have recovered the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder from a Boeing MD-11 freighter that crashed on take-off from Shanghai Pudong airport on 28 November.

"Both recorders have reached Beijing, and they are being analysed," says an official in the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC).

The exterior of the recorders has some damage, he adds.

Cargo carrier Avient Aviation was operating the aircraft, which had seven crew members on board. Three died and the remaining four were hospitalised.

It is still not clear if the aircraft, local registration Z-BAV, was airborne before it crashed. The CAAC had previously only said it skidded off the runway.

"Investigations are still going on in Shanghai and the circumstances are still unclear," says the CAAC official.

The aircraft was operating a charter freight flight and was carrying consumer products such as electrical goods and clothing, says Avient. Chinese media reports say the aircraft was bound for Bishkek, the capital of Kyrgyzstan.

Don't you love it when the uninformed on R & N make sweeping statements.... IT WAS THE LOADING... or the CIA of course. :rolleyes:

Any news of the injuries of the rest of crew, was a Loadmaster and Ground Eng on board.????

Mole Man

It was carrying both if Avient are still following their normal SOP.

The GE is probably the Indonesian lad (hard working, cheerful and knowledgeable guys).

I suspect that the Belgian guy is the LM and am hoping he's not BD.

Whoever they are, can I wish them a speedy recovery - hope they make it home for Christmas.

Crew on board total 7 comprising of4 flight deck (heavy crew), 2 LM's, 1GE. Flt deck were American ex Gemini, 3 of whom sadly were the ones who died.

Avient DC10's
 

What's happening with the Avient DC10's at the moment, they don't seem to have operated from Liege for the last couple of days?

yesterday in LGG (planned, dunno if it was actually flying)
(edited - deleted)

Acid-drop, not quite sure of the relevance of your posting about an Albanian registered MD82 operating from Liege?

oops. My mistake. Let's forget that stupid move quickly.
You may be right, the last avient I see from my source is
ETA 09:55 SMJ216 ZAVT 08.12.2009
ETD 12:30 SMJ597 ZAVT 08.12.2009

Yes, DC10s are still operational, the day before yesterday around 1030 the Z-AVT was logged inbound Liege on my SBS-1 basestation.

Any news on the (2nd) MD-11F which was already painted, but parked in a hangar @ MIA?

Understand that Avient's next MD11F is scheduled for delivery at the end of January. :suspect:

MD Douglas MD-11F framenumber/construction number 495/48410 Z-BAT Avient Aviation seen at MIA 15jan10 prior delivery.
Ex N575SH, PR-LGE, HL7374

There must be some brave Insurance Underwriters out there who are going to cover the risk/liability on this second MD11F for Avient. Understand the claim on the first loss was in the region of $67 million.:rolleyes:

EU registration
 

I have no doubt the CAAZ will be making use of the registration fees for Z-BAT to enhance their safety oversight procedures and to make sure there is no repeat of last November's crash:rolleyes:.
Is there any move for operators who are based in the EU to be forced either to have EU registration or at the very least EU safety oversight? The subject seems to be debated endlessly but nothing ever happens...