Sure did, and whacked HARD !:uhoh:

I suggest you check with Larry L. on this one before you get yourselves and ALPA embroiled in another lawsuit.

If an Atlas pilot decided to jumpseat to benefit himself, no matter if he has gateway or not, it is not against ALPA jumpseat policy. When an Atlas pilot is given a gateway ticket to his base he is charged tax on the price of the ticket (the price of the ticket is seen by the IRS as "imputed" income). Often times, when there are no other seats (such as to ANC in the summer or MIA during spring break) the company buys him a high dollar first class ticket. There have been cases where the Atlas crewmember, who has to pay taxes out of his paycheck on such a ticket, has not recieved a paycheck at all - due to the taxes. So an Atlas pilot may decide, on his own, to jumpseat to save himself the taxes; or even to give himself and extra day at home. This is what the jumpseat was policy was designed for - to allow a pilot to save money by living somewhere that was cheaper or allowed a better quality of life. Or to allow him to remain where he was living while bidding another base. Or to allow him to remain where he was living if he got displaced. The test of the pilots actions is whether it benefits the pilot more than the company - ie. if he is doing it to benefit himself or the company. Now if Atlas "required" a pilot to jumpseat then it would be a different story.

However, this is actually what the company IS REQUIRING of Polar pilots who are riding an Atlas airplane - they are requiring you to Jumpseat on Atlas as you cannot legally Deadhead on another certificate holders aircraft. So the foot is in the other shoe now. Atlas is NOT requiring Atlas pilots to Jumpseat to their trips but they ARE requiring Polar pilots to do so. hmmmmmm...........

All the Atlas pilots are trying to do is to get this merger done. You three are actively trying to screw with the Atlas pilots career. And much like the scab announcer (did I mention we now know who he is?) are cruising for legal action - is that what you want?

I think it is just a question that could be asked. That's all. If ALPA doesn't object then it is no big deal. However... It isn't a witch hunt with other carriers as with the scab list thing but a valid question that could be addressed to ALPA. Are the actions against ALPA jump seat policy? Obviously you do not think so, so be it; what's the problem with asking?

Best Angle, your right, and I think I'll start my Lent thing today. It's just the sight of all those Polaroids getting all excited in the ICN crew room because they think they got one over on us.....:rolleyes:

Rob Lilly, the Zoners were putting money in their pockets by jumpseating...a no-no. Connie was directing his guys to jump intra pattern, saving the company money, a no-no, mine was personal choice. Sometimes to save time (in some cases, days), sometimes I didn't want to go to my Gateway. Take a chill pill and call me in the morning.:E

Trash, go for it. It's been talked about at ALPA before. KM was our JS guy and it's been looked at, but no harm in asking.

It's Lent, and I'm outta here, back to our regularly scheduled arbitrations....

Well if you are talking about the Polar Pilots using the Atlas jumpseat at the direction of the company then yes it should be asked. But it is not for me to ask as it is not my business.

If you are talking about the Atlas pilots jumpseating in lieu of using their gateway tickets then no because:

1. It is none of your business
2. If it was asked it should not be in a public forum
3. It does not go against ALPA Policy as long as it is for the pilots benefit. It is no different than some other freight carriers travel bank, Those pilots sometimes use the jumpseat when it benefits them - I know because I have had them on my airplane.

4. and mostly because IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! It especially ain't any business of layinlow as he doesn't even work for AAWWH anymore.


It was asked of the ALPA national JS chair many years ago (not some no-nothings on a web-board) and in fact was discussed by both the Polar JS Chair and the Atlas JS Chair. And it was asked of all the other airline jumpseat chairman. What you see above is the answer.

Guess you will have to find another way to try to screw Atlas pilots.

"You three are actively trying to screw with the Atlas pilots career"

Wish Atlas pilots and all pilots all the best of their careers.. We, however must arbitrate to fly our own work. . .kind of like AAWW end ruining the ball out of bounds to score a financial touch down. The proper playing field is the one whose cba turf was intended to bind with the call sign.. . . . . . . Blow your whistle, Arbitrator!

This wouldn't be the same work that Polar gained at the expense of 175 Atlas pilots and 5 Atlas A/C when we were in negotiations and the company was making a point to us? The same AMC flying and A/C that Atlas was flying that was moved to Polar (who hired off the street while furloughing 175 Atlas crews) to make a point in the Atlas pilots initial contract negotiations? Kind of reminds me of the Bob Fell phrase "We want relief to fly these new contracts and A/C if you go on strike." New to Polar - not new to Atlas.

I know everyone wants to tell a good story here, but remembering only the facts that work for you just makes you a wanna-be lawyer. Needless to say it doesn't say much about union solidarity. "I've got mine, pull the ladder up!"

So due to some language in your CBA you think you can hold onto the work of others. OK, then I guess we will see the validity of that in the arbitration ruling.

Anyhow, it's been scheduled for April for the Company cross in the arbitration. I image the arbiter will rule sometime in May if things go as they have in the past. http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/p3a/logs.pl

We all know who the SA is, big deal. Don't throw threats my way, as I know who you are. Don't be afraid if ALPA is asked about the J/S to save AAWH money..

"So due to some language in your CBA you think you can hold onto the work of others?"

No, however we think that we should fly at least a majority of our own AMC contract. If it is someone else's work, then why do they constantly use our flight numbers?

Point is - We've got the labor, management today bids for AMC in our name, however they have no intention of us flying it. Sound's like a CBA avoiding end run that has been fielded out of bounds. Hear the whistle?

We both know that both Polar and Atlas have each substantially benefited from ample AMC flying beginning well prior to the R Fell fiasco of '99.

Rob Lilly
I would suggest you call Larry before you attempt to use what little knowledge you have of the jumpseat world and get yourself in trouble. We also know who you are so I am not sure why you continue to hide behind a screen name and refuse to take this discussion to the ALPA boards where it really belongs.

On behalf of professional pilots everywhere, it's time for Polar pilots to quick pissing and moaning about ancient history and time for the few to stop stirring the pot. Get over it, merge, unify, keep your Scope protections and get an industry leading contract for what is a great group of pilots (both sides). For starters, how about demanding Cato's termination as a bargaining chip? If Atlas and Polar guys would do their homework, they would see that that has been sucessfully done in the past more times than not. After that, fight to mix the Atlas pay scale with the Polar work rules. Bottom line is this: Dividing the pilot groups is apparantly the goal of the management. To keep the infighting alive is to play into their hands.

Well then who am I ? Say it here if you know ! Cute how you intentionally mis-spell names, real cute. I'm above that. There have been a quite a few who laugh at you, airing your laundry on the main boards, too funny. They don't understand how you try to trash your supposed brothers at Polar, just for the sake of playing into managements hands.:ugh:

"Get over it, merge, unify, keep your Scope protections and get an industry leading contract for what is a great group of pilots (both sides). For starters, how about demanding Cato's termination as a bargaining chip? If Atlas and Polar guys would do their homework, they would see that that has been sucessfully done in the past more times than not."

UPS FR8, You are not privy to the requirements laid out in the ALPA Merger Policy. Merged contracts are not done under Section 6 of the RLA like usual contract amendments. A merged contract will be settled at arbitration if necessary. There are no bargaining chips. Right now Polar has good scope, there is no guarantee that we will emerge with good scope. AAWH wants to run two seperate airlines with one merged crew force. They don't want the crews to be tied to the certificates. Without scope where would we be left if they decide to sell off one of the airlines? Answer: on the street.

PS. Even if we could, why use up a chip to get rid of Cato? Eventually his antics will cost the Company more money than he saves and he will "leave to pursue other interests."

And that is worth fighting for! The Polaroids have it right!

:rolleyes:

Just read a copy of the recent Polar VARS and Polar Neg. Committee messages. Compared it to the ALPA National Executive Council resolution ordering Atlas and Polar crew forces together to negotiate for the upcoming merger. The Polar message and the ALPA National resolution seem to say completely different things. Even had my wife read them to see if I was seeing things. Even she said "WTF - over". Looks like more wasted Atlas crewmember time and money while one side continues their dream.http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/p3a/logs.pl

Just keep reading and believing J.C. & D.B. and you will stay confused. Everyone listens to their Atlas VARS B.S. too.

This seems pretty straight forward to me and is pretty much what all the Atlas crewmembers posting on here have been saying for a couple of years.

Atlas pilots do not wish any ill on the Polar pilots at all despite the sacrifices they have endured for, and the abuse they have suffered at the hands of, Polar crewmembers. It is just time to finish the merger. Get it done. The whole company is merged except for the pilots - and that is due to the Polar MEC, and only the Polar MEC.

From the CEO of Atlas – in his 2/14/2008 letter to Atlas and Polar Crewmembers;
From the VP of Operations August 2007:

Funny, considering I was reading the Polar Neg. Committee message & Polar VARs. Comparing them to the ALPA National Executive resolution order. Atlas VARs didn't even enter the picture. Just seems that Polar has left the reservation to a point that National might step in again.

It's amazing how you, the Atlas crews, think that the company speaks for in their interests. Believe me, the company could care less. You are just a prostitute to them. As long as you just lay down and get screwed for money, they're happy.

...Um so let me see, the entire board of directors tells us to merge, the CEO says we are merging, the President of Atlas says we are merging, the president of Polar says we are merging, the VP of Ops of both companies says we are merging; indeed the whole DHL deal is predicated on merging (remember part of the Block Space Agreement is that DHL will have access to extra lift via the Atlas ACMI aircraft); every analyst on Wall Street thinks we are merging - in fact the ONLY person on the planet who doesn't think we are merging is Bobbrobin. Even the president of Bobbrobin's union directs him to begin the merger process and he is STILL (and you are) claiming we are not going to merge.

methinks that your wheel is spinning but the hamster is dead.

Me thinks you better buy some industrial strength KY jelly. And if Polar does not prevail, they better too!

Polar Air is not merging.
Atlas Air is not merging.
Only the crews are merging.

Look, Polar has a pretty well thought out and firm scope clause. Do you actually believe that AAWH has the crews best interests in ignoring scope? No-o-o-o, they could care less. They want only to enrich their coffers. And if it means circumventing the CBA, they will do it. So they only want to merge the crews, h-m-m-m? And do you believe they are genuinely interested in the crews? Man are you naive. There is a saying "A company gets the union they deserve". That statement says it all. For good or bad the Polar MEC is asking for two things. 1. The company abides by the scope. If they want to merge anything, make sure it is within the scope. 2. The company must abide by the ruling, that they agreed, made last year in arbitration. On these two points the company is obviously capitulating. Why? If they truly want to merge only the crews, then why not follow the CBA as agreed to? Because it is not in their best interest. If AAWH agrees to merge within the scope, I am sure the Polar MEC will run to the bargaining table. So far the company has chosen not and we have status quo. And that is not good for anyone, except AAWH!

We have had that scope discussion before and it hinges on the definition of "complete operational merger" so let me answer belowmins and you (again) at the same time.

Have you looked at the manuals on the Polar airplanes lately?
Have you called payroll or crew planning lately?
How about Hotels or Travel?
How about tech ops and maintenance?
How about training?
Sales? Every Ops office in every city served by either airline?

Virtually EVERY aspect of this company has been merged except the pilots. This IS a complete operational merger and in this case their scope clause is more against them than for the Polar crewmembers. Both companies have been merged for quite some time regardless of what Bobbrobin tell you.

Trashhauler, I don't believe you still work there but perhaps you would care to call Chris A. In Purchase and ask him. The companies are already merged. It is time to put this to bed and get on with the contract talks. I don't like it any more than the next guy but burying your head in the sand and wishing it were not so is just not going to make it go away.

It would actually be better for the Atlas crewmembers if the Polar guys keep on doing what they are doing as I doubt that AAWWH leadership will put their company, their business, or any deals with DP or DHL in jeopardy for 150 pilots.

This is NOT about scope - this is a pride issue that stems from the Polar negotiating chair telling the Atlas VP of OPs that he would "never wear an Atlas uniform."

For this we all suffer.

What is a "well thought out scope close" when DHL will use your 6.5 airplanes and ACMI everything else to ATLAS? Your argument makes no sense but we will all have to wait for the arbitrator' decision.

First you have to do is, GET OUT OF MANAGEMENTS BED ! That bed must be full with, D.B.,J.C.,T.H.,K.M & J.Ca....


Especially Eplets on the Leather Jacket. That makes everyone throw up.

wow that's some productive discussion and debate there Rob! I do hope that you have some better banter than that. You are beginning to sound like Staphylococcus.

I hear that all Polar Crewmembers sent Prater their ALPA Battle Star Pins. I don't blame them if Atleast got them by default.

Got to keep banter simple for you !

Why stop at the pins? Send in their resignations too! :)

Yep, you sound like a Bush Baby !

Obviously off topic, as the last dozen or so posts.

The load breached a so called engineered container during rotation containing an oil rig drill bit that punctured not only the container, but the pressure vessel of the A/C.

Not quite like what your used to flying at Polar, sailboat fuel back and forth the Pacific.http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/p3a/logs.pl

wow Lilly yet another helpful comment.

I have seen the pictures. In this case it was the shippers fault as the drill was not secured in the box itself. The crew did an awesome job getting the airplane back on the ground. True professionals.

I guess when you actually have cargo onboard these things will happen.

"Ha ! Always happens at Atlas(Rookies)!"

I have read the posts on this site for months without posting, but this has to top it all. I have NEVER in my 37 years as a professional aviator seen or heard anyone as un-professional as you Mr. Lilly!

You should be ashamed of yourself. You must be a real joy in the cockpit to work with.

Time for the moderator to do something about this!

"We have had that scope discussion before and it hinges on the definition of "complete operational merger". . . . Virtually EVERY aspect of this company has been merged except the pilots".

I suppose Whale, with regards to Polar's scope blockade, it can be argued that "complete" is not yet complete. What's to do with those stubborn Polar bad boys? . . . someday this will all be a long time ago.

The merged list for the pilots IS complete. The only hold up is Polar. You have presented a circular argument. You are saying you will not continue because it is not a 'complete operational merger' because you (the pilots) have not merged yet? So you don't want to merge because you have not merged - this is your scope argument?

hmmm..


Hey Lilly how are things by the pool in Miami? Saw you out there yesterday.

So your reputation has be empeccable. I guess we went to the same school then. I usually don't criticize others for their spelling or grammar for just this reason.

WhaleB8,

I haven't been to Miami in over 8 years. But, glad you saw me.

hmmmm.... It must be hard to do a PC or PT at this completely merged company without going to the Atlas training center. Maybe you are sending your twin.

http://bestsmileys.com/signs1/22.gif...it is impeccable.

rob rilly

I don't know what is going on with Polar and Atlas but the comment you made " Ha ! Always happens at Atlas ! " is really something.

You shouldn't have said that if you are true professional pilot.
I do hope not every pilots with Polar are like you.

Curse is not the way to go in aviation world.