This is pretty childish, as I have learned to expect from you and your cadre. You, rob rilly and LANCEDVR have this infatuation about Atlas crew members signing their names to posts here when you and yours have not done so yourselves. Done so on this thread and others while petitioning for it from the Atlas side. Hopefully this is not how you negotiate with the company, but I doubt it.

The Atlas crew side has at least gone onto the ALPA National Boards in which their names are in full view of all ALPA members. That cannot be said of the Polar side. Only an ex-Polar guy who has now withdrawn after realizing his misinformation and an ex-Polar MEC Vice Chairman to say he knew nothing after the ALPA board ruling on Polar's filing of false charges showed up and quickly withdrew after his excuse of ignorance. Log on and use the search function for "Atlas" or "Polar".

As to the arbitration being put off till the 19th, that had a lot not mentioned of the events. I won't go into myself since you will not like the answer, which it will only prolong this thread. You should be more interested in what the ALPA Executive Board is going to say in January.

交渉することを学びなさい。あなたのある議長を信じてはいけない。

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/p3a/logs.pl

Good grief :ugh::ugh:

Arbitration was the topic. If you want to have a mud throwing competition, go do it on someone else's bandwidth.

:*

It was nice of the Atlass MEC to send a lackey to testify on behalf of the company at the arbitration about furloughing PFE's out of seniority this past week. I'm sure he was going to tell the arbitrator about how the Atlass crewmembers were being hurt by the Polar MEC. "we cant' get rid of Standsted, AABO, our work rules suck, etc." Fact is the Atlass crews have a most junior unfriendly contract. They have multiple classes of crewmembers; Gateway/No Gateway. They have not shown solidarity among themselves, now they demand it from a Polar pilots while reveling in the demise of Polar. All the while they sell each other out for the almighty dollar (outbasing). Poor Paul. What a no win situation for him. Testify and not help the company and he is screwed. Testify and help the company he is a scumbag to his fellow pilots. Unfortunately for him, he has to actually face his fellow pilots. Couldn't any of the two semi retired MEC members make it? You know the guys who don't even remember what the cockpit of a 747 looks like. Too busy with their outside interests? When are you going to understand that Scope is the lifeblood of a union? That is what this whole thing is about. Without the protections of scope all of the work rules, pay and benefits are meaningless. Are you going to take the word of Cato, AAWH, and DHL that everything will be Okay? Check out the history of these entities then look at this link http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scorpion.html. You are the frog and Cato is the scorpion.
Everyone wants a new contract, better pay, work rules etc. What you have failed to learn is that sacrifices must be made. It is hard to get what you want in this environment. Labor has few tools since the RLA is very management friendly. These arbitrations are not fun for anyone. But they are the only tool that labor has to leverage their position.
Blast away merc, looking forward to your spin on what happened this week, I'm sure you will post it as soon as Cato feeds it to your MEC.

Not wanting to speak for anyone, but maybe the Atlas MEC was responding to the attention the Polar MEC gave to the ALPA Sponsored scab list ADR. BTW, ALPA National has certainly noticed.

Here was Polars chance of a lifetime to show the world the tons of evidence the Polar MEC said they had against the Atlas crew members. One Polar guy shows up with hearsay. So much for integrity!

Again I say, when the average line Polaroid finds out how much they've been lied to, there's going to be a lynching. That may be some of the motivation for delays? BTW, scope is just the latest delay. When and if they were to get the scope they want, then there will be something else...trust me.

<<Couldn't any of the two semi retired MEC members make it? You know the guys who don't even remember what the cockpit of a 747 looks like.>>

Just out of curiosity, have the 2 Bobs seen one lately?

Can anyone tell me why the Chairman of the Atlas Air Negotiating Committee, who was to testify as a witness for AAWH against the Polar union, was at the Polar F/E furlough arbitration hearing this past week?????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

To me, it says a lot about union solidarity for all pilots at Atlas Air. :O :O :O

My first guess would be to protect the interests of the Atlas crewmembers, if he was to testify at all. There has been a long documented history of the Polar council making gains at the expense of other union council brothers/sisters.

Polars filing of false Article VIII charges to fraudulently defame all the Atlas crewmembers and the 160 named says a lot about union solidarity for all pilots at Polar. I could go on with a couple of volumes of Polars lack of council to council union solidarity. The ALPA site ADR below is a fine example.

https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/Des...cumentID=41172

I don't think so fuegolibre. Polar has been hanging on due to the excellent representation of our MEC. If any Atlas crews have been hurt, it is through your management. I suggest you read Miami Freight's excellent posting. It says it all. The union only wants the CBA followed and the MEC is fighting tooth and nail to make it so. What is wrong with that? If he succeeds, then fantastic, but if he fails, we all know the MEC did their best and that is all that can be asked for. You should be so lucky with your council.

There was suppose to be a hearing yesterday? Let me guess, delayed again?

No word out yet.

They didn't get all the witnesses done by both sides. I think the trouble now is getting everyone's schedules to match for a couple of days to finish the cross examinations (management, arbiter, and the Polar group).

BTW, the Atlas pilot rep was not there to testify despite what you have been told by Hair and Henderson.

"fuegolibre" says the Atlas pilot rep was not there to testify...

So the Atlas Chairman of their Negotiating Committee was not there at the Polar F/E furlough arbitration hearings (this week in Washington and last week in NY) to testify for AAWH against the Polar union--------then what the h.ll was he there for?????? He was obviously sanctioned to be there by the Atlas MEC.

As "fuegolibre" says further, "...I guess to protect the interests of Atlas Air crewmembers..." from the bad guys at Polar. My, My, My. Can you imagine a Delta senior union official showing up at a Fedex union arbitration against Fedex and saying I'm here just to make sure, you the Fedex pilots union, don't do something to screw up our relationship with Fedex mgt and cause us harm. Pitiful!!!:yuk: Absolutely pitiful!!!!:yuk::yuk::yuk:

Many allegations have been made against the Atlas MEC concerning their being in bed with Cato and AAWH mgt. Merc, fuego, and his fellow echoers say no and where is the evidence to support such an allegation.

Well-----the Atlas Negotiating Committe Chairman's attendance at a Polar-AAWH arbitration hearings speaks volumes as to the Atlas MEC incestuous relationship with their mgt.

What gives the right to the Atlas Air MEC to be a "butinsky" in someone else's interests. Obviously, Atlas Air negotiating committee chairman would not be there if it was not allowed by Cato/AAWH mgt. He was there. Cato/AAWH mgt/Atlas MEC said ok. Evidence.

First, I have no inside info on why he was there.

But, if he was there because he was present at previous proceedings (merger negotiations) that are of importance to this arbitration, why not. What, you don't like it because he may actually curtail some free wheeling spin of the truth (lying) by the Polar MEC at this and other proceedings? If he's there to maintain some semblance of truth, bravo.

BTW, Atlas/Polar is just a wee bit different that your FedEx/Delta example, but don't let that stop the spin......

I know everyone would love to think that there is some really deep conspiracy between the Atlas union and management, but there isn't. The Polar MEC and Robin Hair just want their membership to believe it that way.

The simple fact is, the presence of the Negotiation chair of the Atlas membership is to see first hand what can affect the Atlas crewmembers again as a result of this arbitration. Anything less would be irresponsible to the Atlas membership. It also falls very - very short of the Polar MEC crashing uninvited Atlas council meetings, phone conferences, Global Pilots Alliance Meetings with DHL, and a few others uninvited. Besides, the arbiter had no problem with the chairman's attendance.

One of the Polar council demands (#4 of 5) of remedy in this arbitration is the retaking of Atlas flying and A/C again to upgrade 37 and the rehiring of the furloughed F/E's. Which of course would mean possible stagnation at the Atlas crews council if not a possible furlough again. #4 noted here in an excerpt of Polars demanded remedy:


The contract customers and A/C mentioned are the same exact flying that was taken originally from the Atlas crews during their initial contract negotiations and then given to the Polar council as a negotiation tactic by the company against the Atlas council resulting in about 170 Atlas furloughs. Noted on slide 11 on this Click Here For Flash Slide Show(opens a new window - click on each image for next slide).

So essentially, it is like a thief that got caught stealing - went to jail and then gets out only to sue you for what he stole from you (though for a short time) to begin with in this arbitration.

I would say there is an interest in the Atlas council sitting in to listen in on what is going on. I'm kind of surprised that the Polar council has taken such a view, unless they go into the "say anything" mode again to win.

I do have insight why he was there. He was there to represent the Atlas Pilots and to make sure that the hearings were conducted honestly and with integrity. Something that the Polar MEC should understand as they claim that is what they do for the Polar Pilots.

"So essentially, it is like a thief that got caught stealing - went to jail and then gets out only to sue you for what he stole from you"

Wow, what an analogy! . . . . I had thought it was more like Polar being almost bankrupt, cold and hungry, brought in from the rain, offered shelter and then raped.

An Air Force reservist friend of mine who fly's C5's into DOV, RMS and KWI had told me that now and then he hears a Polar call sign on the field. When he looks, it's always another Atlas airplane. . . Historically, Polar has flown a lot of AMC flying, and today they fly almost zero of it.

- - - - - MR. Arbitrator - Give unto Polar what is Polar's! - - - -

(1) WhaleFR8 says…..”I do have insight why he was there. He was there to represent the Atlas Pilots and to make sure that the hearings were conducted honestly and with integrity….” [Sounds a little like Alexander Haig after Reagon was shot in 1981----I’m in charge]

(2) WhaleDriver says….”What, you don't like it because he may actually curtail some free wheeling spin of the truth (lying) by the Polar MEC at this and other proceedings? If he's there to maintain some semblance of truth, bravo….”

My, My, My….What idiotic, moronic, and insane statements!!!:yuk::yuk:

Can you imagine how the arbitrator would react to such statements? To be told that he is incapable of managing a fair and impartial hearing is beyond belief.

The arbitrator is an esteemed and well regarded professional who has conducted 100’s of arbitrations over the past 30 years. To imply that this gentleman cannot preside over a fair arbitration on the matters at hand is totally freaking nuts. Says a lot about intellect and creditability of WhaleFR8 and WhaleDriver.

(3) fuego says…..”The simple fact is, the presence of the Negotiation chair of the Atlas membership is to see first hand what can affect the Atlas crewmembers again as a result of this arbitration. Anything less would be irresponsible to the Atlas membership.

A fair statement. If I were the Atlas MEC, I would want to know everything possible that could affect my pilots. My problem would be one of ethics. If I could cut a deal and get in bed with AAWH mgt to gain this insight, I would have to weigh the pros and cons of such a decision. The upside is I get info. The downside is that I would be negatively viewed by my union brethren in the industry for interfering in somebody else’s business. The Atlas MEC chose to get the “info” and the Atlas Negotiating Committee Chairman chose to be the Alger Hiss. :=:=

The Polar union objected to the presence of the Atlas Air Negotiating Committee Chairman at these hearings. The arbitrator agreed that this was a fair challenge and asked AAWH why this “third party” was present. Jim Cato, AAWH mgt, then piped up and said that this mole, sorry, I mean individual, was to be a witness and testify on AAWH’s behalf. The arbitrator ruled saying that if this was so, then the “third party” could stay.

So it really boils down to ethics. The Atlas MEC and the Atlas Negotiating Committee Chairman should ask themselves these questions:

--- What price do I sell my soul for?
--- How low do I stoop to obtain my objectives?
--- Can I look myself in the mirror?
--- How much do I value my word and integrity?

What is the date of the next scheduled arbitration hearing?

"I do have insight why he was there. He was there to represent the Atlas Pilots and to make sure that the hearings were conducted honestly and with integrity."

Isn't that the arbitrators job?

In Bed
 

Is it true that Jim Cato had an Atlas Union member speak in behalf of AAWH?

If this is not "in bed", I don't know what is.

Give us a date, time and place, or are you guys spinning BS again?

Mega dittos WhaleDriver. I just can’t understand why people make derogatory remarks about Mr. Cato.

The FE arbitration now seems to resume again in February.

I suspect it's result may somehow integrate with the closely re-scheduled merger arbitration. A logical arbitrator remedy (if Polar is forced to merge) would be to back pay Polar's FE's again, and dissolve the "no bump no flush" clause as pertains to Polar FE's returning on the FE merge list.

Such conclusion would almost certainly peak Atlas MEC interest.

Cool - dissolve the "no bump-no flush" and we can dissolve the whole list. Then the Atlas Pilots can take their rightful seniority.

Just out of curiosity, how many more times are the Atlas pilots going to catch one of the Polar MEC trying to call in to one of their quarterly meetings? Or catch one of the Polar pilots trying to attend in person? The Atlas negotiating chair was merely at the arbitration to observe. Regardless of what Bobbrobbin are telling you he was not there at the Behest of the company. I doubt the company cares, or would need, an Atlas council person there to testify on their behalf. You guys are really whacked. Better than half of you do not even still work for Polar.

It appears that the Polar MEC (Bobb) and Robin Hair are losing control of their little house of cards or this is just getting under their skin. Looks like a full court press of disinformation is going on again to cover themselves. So I see that Bobb and Robin have been making the usual calls and emails to the normal Polar crowd resulting in the previous posts with seeded lies. They like that since it is not a public disclosure they can be held to. Using select members to spread what they want heard - not what is the truth and then deny that they ever said it to anyone.

You have to sit back and think about who has the better track record of honesty, the Polar MEC or the Atlas council. Just one fine, recent, and more publicly obvious example of typical Polar MEC and council behavior is found here with the alternative dispute resolution here https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/Des...cumentID=41172 in which the ALPA President Captain Prater had to apologize on Polars behalf for their actions of falsely accusing Atlas and 160 named as "scabs". These lies were also encouraged by the Polar MEC/council prior to the Polar strike and continue to this day without remorse for over two years. Since Polar,by majority action, seems to have no moral principles, then it is not much of a leap for more lies to enter here on this thread.

Another note on the attendance of one of the Atlas council observing. Bobb and/or Robin didn't mention that the arbiter was willing to sequester the Atlas crewmember outside the hearing. That would have put the Atlas member outside the hearing to sit around waiting for any leaked info or just go home. The arbiter then said if he did that, he would have to sequester the Polar members not directly engaged or testifying in the hearing until called from outside also. I guess Bobb and Robin didn't want that. Maybe they didn't get a chance to rehearse everything they wanted them to say, needing them to hear the previous persons testimony before giving their own.

But as a the devils advocate. If the Atlas member was to testify (which he was not there for that - just to observe the proceedings since its results may affect the Atlas council), just what could he say but the truth and facts? Is the Polar case that weak?

As to being in bed with management. Polar has a lot to answer for themselves when they were willing to fly struck A/C and freight as denoted HERE in the ADR Presented Evidence (Flash Slide Show-Click on each image to forward).

In all, the transcripts will come out at some point down the road. At which time the Polar contingent will care less if we caught them lying again. Just like in the alternative dispute resolution above along with the other cases.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/p3a/logs.pl

Actually Whale, I just finished reviewing the transcripts:

When Paul's presence was objected to, the Company attorney (Siegel) indicated that Paul's function was as a Company witness.

In Solidarity,

....and who objected? The Polar attorney? (is it Katz?) Bobb was OK with it - as he really doesn't have anything to hide. Robin on the other hand was royally PO'd (makes one wonder what kind of machinations he actually was planning).

Katz and Siegel were sparring and anything that Katz didn't want Siegel did.

I would think that you would know better than to believe ANYTHING an attorney says in the heat of battle.

Only took two days to argue about what to argue about - delay delay delay.


I thought you had a life and weren't going to post here until after Christmas. And here you are reading arbitration transcripts. hmmmmm.....

Transcripts, so early? Do put them up like the Atlas guys have done in the past or should we just go on your word?

It would be refreshing to hear what actually happened, in whole, instead of just what Robin and Bobb wants everyone to hear. As an example, Bobb's VARS message of 12-22-2007 in which he chose selectively only certain parts to emphasize vs the whole story which says it all. I can pick apart most of that VARS. As can ex-ALPA President Duane Woerth to what really happened as he did in the ADR hearing against Polar.

If the present ALPA President has to apologize for a councils actions (Polar), that in itself says it all for that councils character and morals.

Whale

The Company attorney stated to the arbitrator that Paul Alves, the Chairman of the Negotiating Committee for Atlas Air's Crewmembers was present at a Polar vs. Company arbitration as a Company witness. Paul arrived with the Company, sat with the Company, and left with the Company while Polar Flight Engineers suffer...

I made a special exception to bring you the truth, Whale.

Here is the Atlas MEC statement on the Polar arbitration and the remedy sought by the Polar council. Has a link inside to a PDF of the requested remedy Polar is seeking. Also touches on why Paul was there.

https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/Des...cumentID=41286

In RealMedia Audio Click Here

2008
 

My prediction for 2008 is the polar union will win its merger arbitration and then polar air cargo will be sold off. Then the rest of us can get back to business as usual.
Merry Christmas to everyone.

Paul Alves was the Atlas crew member that was fired for not crossing the Polar pick line at the training center.

Just another fine example of how any good deed for the Polar Council never goes unpunished. Paul now faces accusations that he is in bed with management from the Polar side despite his previous proof of union solidarity.

Like those Atlas crews that walked with Polar on their picket lines and found themselves charged with Article VIII's and named as "Scabs" for their efforts. Spending over two years clearing their names. Just recently cleared in the Alternative Dispute Resolution.

I see a pattern here!

And everyone wonders why we can't get along.

And a true gentleman he was.

Joetommy
Fact for 2008 remains the same as for 2007, AAWH is the majority shareholder of PACW with 51% and 75% of PAC certificate due to foreign ownership regulation. Why would AAWH after years of having PAC on live support sell of the golden goose with a recovery in sight. Furthermore, in writing to BB, Randy Clark strongly supports the merger. Both AAWH and DHL want the merger. Also, don't you think if any realistic legal chance existed to stop this from happening that UPS and FedEx would send their lawyers?
I wish both Pilot groups prosperity and growth for 2008 which is realistically, possible, and achievable - TOGETHER.

V1

You said PAC is on "life support" and the "golden goose" all in one sentence(you must be a democrat). Dont kid yourself,, If PAC lost so much money year after year DHL would not have bought half the thing.

Your damn right the lawyers of ALL the airlines are going to be running to this arbitrator if he's stupid enough to rule against an iron clad scope clause in a contract. If I were UPS management I would be at his desk the next day wanting my pilots scope thrown out as well.

I as well wish growth and prosperity for both companys in 08. But not together.

whaledriver101
The companies will not be together in 2008. Only the pilot group will be one entity. The single pilot groups (to be) negotiated contract will be linked to what? PACW?, ATLAS AIR?, AAWH?. No one knows and thats the rub. If the contract is linked to AAWH, then the single pilot group
has exclusive rights to all the flying done by AAWH. WHICH IS NONE.

whaledriver
at 24 to 26 cent a pound, which is the based on a 65% load factor at a 40 cent per pound market rate as published, PAC did hardly cover its operational costs.
DHL made an investment into PACW because of the China and Japan routes. This business transaction creates a Block space/ ACMI hyprite for the next 20years worth several billion dollars. The new rate under this contract is 50 to 60 cent per pound with a load guarantee. Hence the comment. AAWH had PAC on life support for years now the potential golden goose is showing signs of recovery.

Belowmins:
The contact will be with AAWH and cover all certificates of the holding.
Look at the MESA or Republic Airways Holdings. Their single CBA states that all flying done by any certificate owned by the holding will be done by Pilots on the single seniority list.
Asked the ALPA lawyers. This is a much better solution than having two separate lists and CBAs owned by one holding company.
Example:
Trans States Holdings GoJet and Trans States Airlines. Playing one group against the other.

As someone who has significance with RAH, let me interject some differences.

RAH started out as one company that became 3. There was always one pilot group. The sole addition was in the addition of the Shuttle America Certificate, which brought about 90 pilots into the group of about 1200 at the time. This is significantly different than acquiring a second airline intending to merge it into one, then, changing mid-course and desiring to maintain the separate certificates.

Even thought the RAH group is under one contract, that does not mean a unified pilot group. There are pilots from each company that won't speak because "grey is gay" (meaning the S5 pilots ID colors) and "red is dead" (CHQ ID) and alot of pilots at RW won't speak to anyone because a lot have a "holier-than-thou" attitude since they are J4J captains. Also, the way the contract is worded, and the IND FSDO's inability to read the 8400.10, it is far more difficult to transfer certificates than you think.

As someone who's operated under both circumstances, it matters not whether there are 2 independant airlines or 1 under an umbrealla. What really matters is that pilots look out for other pilots. In fighting is exactly what the management wants. The problems that exist now would not be any different than if a merger were to come to pass. There will still be fragmented groups. Even if there is one list, but still two certificates, inspite of what is being sent from the Pulpit in Purchase, you will be tied to one certificate or the other for a long, long time. The "seamless" transition does not exist yet (at least at RAH or MESA). I'm well studied in the subject matter from an academic side as well as personal experience.

Until both groups quit acting like school kids fighting over a pile of dirt, we can have one carrier, one certificate and one list for a long time before anything changes. What MGT is proposing is unique to the industry. It is unlike any previous merger, and it would be wise for us to debate on here all the angles, whether one list is the best or two lists with protected CBAs are best. Don't forget what we do WILL have many future impacts. Right now, I bet ATA-World-NorthAmerican MGT is watching what happens here so they can manipulate their groups.

There's a reason 49% Equity and 25% control was sold to DHL. Polar is a hedge fund proposal away from being sold. Don't forget the institutional investors don't give a rat's ass about "operational integrity" or anything else. They care about ROI. If some rich Harvard kids can make a case to buy if from AAWH, guess what's going to happen? They will buy it then "contract" services from AAWH to run the show