section six
 

You see 101, in case it isn't plain to you yet, there can be NO section six unless the other party (the company) comes to the negotiations. One certainly cannot have negotiations by themselves now can they.

Since the company has said that we ARE going to merge one way or the other, they will not come to the table with Atlas negotiators no matter how prepared we are, or how much we might wish them too.

Since we cannot get the company to come to the table (remember THEY seem to think the merger is still on) we cannot negotiate a new contract which is now over two years past its amendable date. So basically the Robin and Bobb show has cost us at least a pay raise and possibly some good quality of life fixes. And it gets worse with every passing day.

So in addition to the two Atlas aircraft that are being currently destroyed by the Polar pilots (just like 496MC was); and in addition to the profit sharing money we lost when Atlas upstreamed it to the holding company and used it to buy Polar; your MEC is costing our pilots hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost pay and benefits.

Do you wonder why the Atlas pilots are so pissed off?

This all sucks worse than a vacuum cleaner.

Why don't you guys just give it up? If the union membership is so upset with the Polar MEC you wouldn't know it by the postings on our web site. I am beginning to believe the vitriol coming from the Atlas side is in response to the unfavorable rulings they have endured and the fact that Astar and Polar MEC's may (note I wrote "may") merge into one group. Just sit back shut up and let this whole thing work itself out without pontificating on this web site. I am for closing this thread down. It serves no purpose and has gotten away from the intent of the first post.

"So in addition to the two Atlas aircraft that are being currently destroyed by the Polar pilots (just like 496MC was)"

How so?

When 496 left Atlas for Polar it was in pretty good shape and had been pretty well taken care of. When it came back from Polar (the first time) I was one of the first ones to fly it. There were scuff marks all over the walls, the carpet was torn up and the light fixtures and switches in the bunks were broken or missing. The cockpit was a pig-sty, the chiller did not work, the oven was filthy and did not work; the hot cup even worse. The carpet was torn up and filthy. The blue room was filthy and the galley in general was so dirty and full of old food and catering it took us almost an entire flight to clean it up. The cockpit controls were chipped and the center pedestal was so dirty it looked like it had not been cleaned since it left Atlas.

The Polar pilots have the same tools that the Atlas pilots have to keep the airplane clean. None, other than not taking the airplane until it is properly ground serviced, or writing up inop items such as the galley equipment. But in all my time at Atlas I have never flown an airplane that was in worse shape; especially not a -400 that was only about 8 years old.

Perhaps fixing the blame on the Polar pilots is wrong - but if the shoe fits?? We will certainly know when we all start flying the same airplanes; or when 416 comes back to Atlas.

Layinlow are you still at Polar???

Nah layinlow,, keep the thread open. Its got everything you want from bikini businesses to messy airplanes. And,, all the crying in between.

You are correct though. We are probably closer to merging with Astar than we ever were with Atlas crewmembers. And when that happens it will finally be over. All over,,,,,,,,,,,,,except for the crying.:)

ah hahahahahahahahahahahahaahahah

rotfbsomnlmao

http://bestsmileys.com/lol/4.gif


I noticed you didn't answer any of my questions. How do you negotiate with someone that will not come to the table because they insist the merger is still on (and after all it is their company - not Bobbbs)

PPrune at the Soaps!

Is this the story's plot -

Polar labor is rebelliously attempting to dodge daddy (er step-daddy) AAWW's shotgun wedding attempt with Atlas labor, because realistically or unrealistically, Polar has a lusting eye set on DHL/ Astar instead?

Or is it that loftier Atlas labor would very much like to jump into bed with voluptuous DHL, however the Polar Labor punk is in the way?

As the Fan Turns
 

Neither really. AAWWH is a publicly held holding company which in turn owns both Polar and Atlas. AAWWH has said they are merging the two subsidiary companies. That is THEIR choice not Bobb and Robin's.

Bobb initially said "Great" we want to merge. Now, after the seniority list is negotiated, he suddenly doesn't want to merge. AAWWH could do the DHL contract with any number of companies out there. They could sub-lease, they could fire everyone and start a new company; they could even buy a non-union company and give the whole deal to them. They own the leases on the planes, and they own the certificates and landing rights. Those certs and rights and planes DO NOT belong to the Polaroids no matter how much they might wish it. So if Bobb and Robin keep screwing around, NEITHER group will have the DHL contract. And maybe AAWWH won't either.

Atlas pilots don't really give a Bos grunniens hindquarters whether they merge or not. They just want to negotiate their contract and want their planes back, one way or the other. They are just more realistic about the mindset of the company.

A bonus would be never having to deal with Bobb and Robin again.

Astar really has nothing to do with it. This is all part of the Deutsch Post/DHL plan to rule the cargo world. The two groups, if they ever get together, are going to be but a small part of the big plan alongside Astar, Abex, Lufthansa and DHL and probably others. If Polar and Atlas don't get together, however, then chances are that Deutsch Post/DHL will go to someone that is easier to work with. I wonder if that has already happened.

You keep leaving out that Polar has scope and successorship under their current CBA. Why should they leave that off the table? AAWWH has been the one who has changed the face of this merger. Bobb is just reacting to the change in the concept since the seniority list is mergered. No Scope protection...No Merger. Why should we leave our livelihood up to the good will of Cato and Co?
I really don't understand the personal attacks. Is it illegal to have an outside business when you are an ALPA rep? Doesn't' Atlas' MEC chairman have outside business interests? Also why would you think that FO's at Polar have no representation? Ask one of the so called "Cato 42" who consist of a lot of screwed over by ALPA ex TWA guys if they have gotten good representation by the Polar MEC. Also Polar has one of the most junior friendly contracts in the industry. Sacred days off and no junior assignment for one.

Why mention the Polar scope and rights of succession? It would only gum up their argument.

As The Fan Turns (Refined)

Whale suggests that resistant Polar labor will willingly throw a wrench into the merger machinery, because of an unfavorable seniority inheritance.

Others suggest that Polar is bulking because of it's reluctance to lose it's tenuous scope lifeline.

Is it possible / realistic that DHL, when tired of wrestling with Polar labor, will walk away from it's hefty investment?

Unfortunately, it appears that Polar's (labor) merger resistance, has unintentionally stalled Atlas's contract negotiations. Collateral damage?

How so? There is no argument. Bob will be the first to tell you he is trying to prevent the merger, That is plain to all of us. However, the Polar scope clause does not give him the right to do so - though he and Robin are certainly trying.

So are you still at Polar layinlow?

Most contracts have an escape clause, or a non-performance clause, or at least a date that it will all be accomplished by. So yes - I think it is entirely possible that DHL/Deutsche Post will dump a recalcitrant pilot group based on at least non-performance. Don't you.

DHL has indicated that it wants a merger. This fact alone will make Bobb's agenda difficult. No doubt that Bobb is gutsy to take on such a battle (not a bad character trait for a protective labor leader, no?).

Not sure how fragile the DHL relationship is, as we are not privy to DHL's escape decision's / particulars. That is probably the bigger question.

What makes you an expert on this topic? How do you know what a judge will rule? The fat lady is far from singing in this case. Why don't you just pull up a chair and keep your mouth shut.

ummmm - well because I have read the Polar contract and I have heard Bobb's VARS messages and heard what he said to the ALPA executive council. I wasn't trying to portray myself as an expert. Only answering a question (your question I think).

Are you still at Polar?

Maybe you need to go fly that 172 around the bay a little bit and cool off.

Lest we forget, companies decide if they are going to merge. Unions only negotiate the terms of employment. So DHL deciding to merge with Polar is decided by the company not the union groups leaders. It makes a good message to use for their troops though. Makes them think they are doing something.

Polars previous urgency to merge was reflected in past messages by Bobb from about a year ago. Saying that it was the Atlas union side delaying. Now that Polar didn't win everything in the Seniority List Arbitration they have decided to to take their ball and go home by delaying the process. Now Bobb and Robin are using a pre merger negotiation demand to delay the process that was pretty much resolved by the arbiter on the Seniority List Arbitration.

On the front of getting personal. I remember many Polaroids doing the same about one of the Atlas MEC. He sold his share eventually since the union demanded most of his time. If the Polar membership wants to spend the money (100 pay hours a month) for their MEC to sit in the Bahamas on his houseboat while running his bikini shop and only attending to union matters when absolutely necessary, that is your memberships problem. He isn't needed that much for the union stuff anyway, Robin Hair of the negotiation committee makes all of the decisions for Bobb.

Bobb more or less just does VARS messages which are full of misstatements or out right lies which are caught very quickly by facts. But it plays well to his membership which are given few of the actual facts. Can't have the membership thinking for themselves you know. BTW he doesn't fly despite it being rumored that he does. Not current.



Oct 2 Atlas Message in RealAudio

Web page of same

Court Order Compelling Arbitration in PDF
http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/hiring/logs.pl

Per Oct 2 Atlas message - "On the merger front, the Association has informed us that that management won its lawsuit against the Polar MEC to compel them to arbitration regarding whether they are required to complete the merger."

Merc, You seem skilled at producing legitimate documents. The understanding was that management's recent lawsuit was specifically about prioritizing it's order of filed grievances ahead of those of Polar's . . . . . Management did not win this - Polar did.

A discrepancy here. Please help clarify.

Obviously a respected member of Atlas labor, you seem generally credible. If so, reporting from Polar's bedroom as such, is from a place where I suspect you don't belong.

OK with that.There you guys go again. Take a moment and actually read the order.

It directs the parties to present their case to the arbitrator within 30 days on whether it should be expedited or not. Bottom line, it’s not tied up in court and it’s up to the arbitrator to decide if it has merit to be expedited. I see it only at best, as a minor victory for the foot dragging Polar MEC. I think AAWH is happy to see it move along and not be tangled in litigation. The Polar MEC has indicated what they think the outcome will be by not making themselves available for a simple conference call with the arbitrator.

This is an unprecedented move by the Polar MEC and the arbitrators are aware of the Polar tactics. Holden mentioned to the neutrals that it was known that Polar was had a "take it or leave it attitude" and it is wearing thin.

Remember, early 2008 is no big deal. It’s obvious that the merger is not going to happen in the next six month's, so DHL appears OK with that.

Why shold it me amended? Even if everyone agreed to a deal tomorrow, it would be summer '08 before the merger would be completed. I didn't say it wasn't going to happen.

merc,

I guess I didn't communicate all of my thoughts completely. :ugh:

Make sure I don't miss to much (not as condensention, just to make sure I'm not erring on this quick deal).

The company decides one day, hey let's merge both certificates and create one seniority list. Sounds good enough. Then they get real smart and fly an Atlas bird into Japan. Ooops....pissed off the Japanese. We'll just smooth it over, then do it again. Wow!!! They impounded the airplane!! Appearantly the Japanese decided that Polar route authorities must be flown by Polar-operated airplanes, and the brain trust decided to keep seperate certificates (which kinda changes the deal substantially from one combined operation, to TWO airlines, one of which would be easy to spin off).

So, my intent was this: Instead of a intra-union arm wrestling match, why don't OUR MEC's agree to disagree, but instead focus the beating on Purchase? Why don't both of our MEC's went to Purchase to open section 6 together, and chase down two industry leading contracts for the crews? Let's get our scopes, pay and work rules where they need to be, then worry about our internal integration issue. The list is made and done. Whether it is enacted is an academic discussion for another day.

Both contracts should have scope clauses that I previously described. It's not make Polar fat at the expense of Atlas. That was never my intent. We don't compete against each other in the business world, so it's only the company's benefit that we compete in our internal world. That can be done if our MEC's unify and deal with the company first.

The whole "I benefit over you" is complete crap. If I gave the impression that PO should benefit by poaching from 5Y, I was misunderstood. We punch the clock everyday, and we want our employer to be successful and lucrative and keep sending the checks. All the pilots should benefit.

Until the MEC's show leadership on the issue that all the AAWH pilots are looking for the same things (Job security, pay and work rules), and focus their energy on attaining those in contracts and LOAs, I don't see the in-fighting ending. And the more we fight with each other, the more Cato wins.

I think you overestimate the expanse of Bobb's bathing suit empire. Besides what is the problem with having a side job or business? Doesn't D. B. have a restaurant or car dealership or both? And isn't J. C. raking in a lot of dough as an underwear model?

merc and whale: When you resort to personal attacks....you lost the argument. And you two seem to do that a lot.

Personal Attacks
 

Well lets examine that statement. First place I think CR2 would have stopped this thread if we had gotten out of hand but lets look at one of your compadre's posts.
Sounds like a personal attack to me. I remember many attacks from you guys on that particular individual.

Every time you don't want to answer a question or if you think the argument is not going according to Robins plan you start this kind of thing. Stick to to facts! Answer the questions!

The Atlas MEC has tried many times to do exactly what EjetCA has said. They tried to work with the Polar MEC and the Polar Merger committee on many issues. All to no avail. The intransigence of the Polar leadership makes it near impossible to get anything done. EjetCA you talk about our scope clause - but we can't even get to our second contract section six until Bobb and Robin stop their delaying tactics.

The bottom line is exactly what Bourne said in his latest message. If Bobb and Robin thought they had a case, they would actually WANT this grievance to be expedited. The fact that they want to "put it on the bottom of the pile" of grievances (many of which are ones that the Polar MEC refused to move forward, not the company) speaks volumes. Robin knows he cannot prevent a merger. He knows that if AAWWH wants to merge the two companies, then that is their prerogative. He is only trying to delay the process. I think he truly wants to burn the company down. I think he wants to put the DHL contract in jeopardy in hopes that once it is totally gone to others then Atlas will sell Polar separately.

By the way, NONE of the Atlas MEC members have a second job or business but that is typical of the information you guys get fed from the Bobb-n-Robbin show.

And I still want to know layinlow and Miami freight - do you still work for Polar?

If Polar has such a good case then why the delay? If the scope protections are so great then why worry about putting the grievance on the bottom of the pile?

Argue your case on its merits. I bet none of you look good as a underwear model either so lets just stop that kind of talk and discuss the important points - if you even still work for Polar.

I've been a little busy so sorry for my delay again.

I too have a company on the side. Thats OK since I don't get paid by my union. Even if I did get flight pay loss for working for them, I wouldn't pull stunts like using a union cell phone as the main contact number for a charter service in Homer AK like one of the past Polar MEC's. If your membership feels fine with paying for it, that is Polar's membership concern. What's a few $5K a month phone bills.

I do remember a number of "personal attacks" being conducted by the Polar equation here on Atlas and their MEC. Just find it funny that it's a problem now.

WhaleFR8 pretty much summed up the rest of it, so why repeat it.

I'll just hang out and post when I have more info to put up. Shouldn't take too long. One side always has something to say contradictory to published verifiable facts that needs to be posted for those intentionally not informed by their leadership.

"but we can't even get to our second contract section six until Bobb and Robin stop their delaying tactics. "

Ive never seen so much crying in my life. Bunch of babies. You actually think its the MEC of a different certificated airline thats keeping another airline from its second contract??? Getting your second contract is your own responsibility. Tell your MEC to get to work and stop blaming others for your predicament.

Polar has one of the best MEC's in the business. Do alot of hard work for their members. Glad we have them.

"If Polar has such a good case then why the delay?"

Hmmmmmmm,, Whats the hurry??

I guess you forgot that ALPA National approved a PID for the merger, the Company says there is going to be a merger, and Polar wanted an expedited merger not to long back. I guess someone didn't get something they wanted and now are trying everything to delay or get out of it.

Seperate Sect. 6 negotiations are just going to be repeats of the past ones. Many here seem to have a short and selective memory of those events.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/hiring/logs.pl

They did not have to be that way.

Hear that sound?............It's the hammer about to be dropped by Cato if the conference call doesn't happen.

What Bill Flynn thinks, in case Bobb doesn't feel like passing it around. Yep, I agree he is management.


We got a copy on the Atlas side.

(scanned two pages and Bobb address removed)

http://cptaudio.com/merger/flynn1.png
http://cptaudio.com/merger/flynn2.png

Well I think that just about settles that! Any questions?

Peanuts
 

Sorry but the Polaroids are NOT the 101st Airborne. Not now, not ever. And General McAuliffe had more leadership ability in his left big toenail than anyone involved in this tiny scuffle.

..... But you go ahead and send that very reply to AAWWH management.

No...it really doesn't. And a poorly written letter rushed out the door late on Friday (if its' Friday, it must be Cato) won't change anything. We'll all find out soon enough, with or without the threats...

Polar crewmembers don't want to AND don't have to. CYA.

p.s.-I've seen his "hammer", it's not too big.

Doesn't that comment belong in Jetblast.


http://bestsmileys.com/flasher/3.gif

It is very odd that he neglects to mention that when the merger was initially proposed that there was to be ONE operating certificate.

Since they "restructured" Polar and signed an agreement with DHL that there would continue to be two separate and independent operating certificates.

Again, one of the cornestones of the deal changed, yet it is not recognized.

I must admit there are several notes that divide the pilot groups, and even further allies the Atlas Crews with Management, almost an (US vs. Them) vs. THEM.
My interpretations:
1) Polar got gutted because they were unprofitable in their present form. So we went in, made some tough decisons, found an anchor customer in DHL and have made it a viable entity, to exploit the 5th freedom rights, Japanese Landing rights and align a brand with DHL
2) Atlas is a MUCH larger company, so why should Atlas crewmembers care about PO pilots?
3) The growth carrot is dangled with an implication that if AAWH fleet doesn't grow, it's the pilots fault. Do you honestly think the share holders care if AAWH grows if there is one or two pilot groups?
4) DHL potential? BS...Is Flynn lying to the shareholders or the pilot group? (I know who I'd bet on....)

Don't let managment make your decisions for you....

Fly Safe :}

Don't you mean the Polar MEC? While having conversed with a number of the Polar membership having to DH on us in the past. Your membership seems to disagree with you and the Polar MEC. I guess that means there is going to be a new "snake" LIST at Polar.

I believe it is the writing of Bill Flynn, without influence of Mr. Cato. Mr. Cato's style is distinctive and is easy to pick out over the number of years having to deal with him and the CEO's he controlled in these issues when they wrote letters in the past.

I don't even want to address that one. I believe that falls under "don't ask and don't tell".

Guess I could say the same about the Atlas membership...on the road they have nothing but positives to say about the Polar MEC and negatives about their own...go figure.

You are correct. Cato's "style" is distinctive. And predictable.

Ahhhhhh yeah...the hammer...if you work here long enough, he is bound to show it to you sooner or later. Can't help himself...compulsive. Damn my eyes...

Well you didn't have to follow him into the WC in Purchase!

http://bestsmileys.com/scared/8.gif

Sorry but I don't believe your story about the Atlas guys - they are too well informed to believe that the Polar MEC is anything but a roadblock to a new contract and a pay raise.

How would you know anyways - are you listening to staphylococcus again?

What the Atlas pilots have recognized in the past is that the Polar PILOTS are solid - what they are just finding out is that Robbobbin have really just kept all the Polaroids in the dark; especially the FOs.

All councils and MECs have their internal problems. At least the Atlas MEC talks to their pilots - and has the integrity to tell them the real truth. One only has to compare the letter posted above by MERC with the latest BobbVars. Someone ain't telling the truth.

Do you really suppose that the CEO of the company is the one lying about the merger?

So the real truth is that the Polar Pilots are not solid, just un-informed.

You have a unique position being on the negotiating committee. Put yourself in a junior FO's position. Is the Polar MEC acting with integrity or do they have their own agenda?

Man, I'm glad I moved on from that place.

JC is going to keep you under the current Atlas CBA until 2015.

You heard it here first!