Quote:

allow the engineers to buy some spares before they are needed, pay the company's bills on time. (nothing to do with not having the money). etc.etc.etc.etc.etc......(ad infinitum)

And just a final thought from me,
Say Again, if I were your chief pilot and you walked into my office itemising such complaints I would send you packing.
Once again you're not coming across as a team player, I presume you're a good pilot, you'll need to be because if you're going to involve yourself in the politics of other departments then there's going to be those waiting to piss on your party.
Where does this mentality come from, 'I'm a pilot, I'm the most important person in the airline, it's my duty to involve myself in everybodys business'?
You're probably not this type of person whatsoever but that's the impression you're putting across. Again I say that I presume Emerald is your first airline, I say this because you seem to be under the impression that all other airlines have stocks of rotable spares on the shelf for when next needed, you're living in a dream, and very rich, world Slowly.
To get on in any company, not just Emerald, might one suggest you concentrate on flying the aeroplane, leave engineering to sort out their politics, accounts department likewise and you do what you're paid to do.
Nothing personal, I don't even know you, it's just the way you come across.

Phileas,

You must be MOB coming up with a post like that. People need jobs which is the only reason lots of them put up with Emerald and the complaints are a symptom of this.

Does being a team player involve knowingly doing something illegal and by such action being part of it? (eg complicit with being rostered into discretion).

If I were Chief Pilot and someone came to me complaining about constantly being rostered into discretion I wouldn't send them packing seeing as it is forbidden by CAP371. I would hope that I already knew of it and had done something to stamp it out. If I could not influence things in that area I would have to consider my position as well as get straight on to the CAA. Mind you, if the mobster has made up his mind and issued an edict that FTLs are wrong and should be used as a guide only, then that's the way it WILL be so perhaps I'm being a little hard on my hypothetical Chief Pilot.

Just an observation

Civil Servant,
Next time, try reading my post before responding to it. It may be fair comment about being rostered into discretion, it is illegal for a pilot to be rostered into discretion before reporting for such a duty.
My post referred to complaints regarding engineering spares, paying bills etc. If one has a particular complaint that affects the way they perform a particular duty, such as discretion, then fair enough but there's such a thing as going too far, and that's when people stop listening to such an apparent 'busybody'.
Discretion is exactly what it says, it is at the discretion of the individual whether they exercise it or not. It is apparent that individual(s) are agreeing to exercise such discretion and then coming here to bitch about it afterwards. Some might regard that as being 'two-faced'!
Of course, if they declined, as is their right, to exercise discretion in the first instance they'd only have engineering and accounts to bitch about. Why not leave the engineers and accountants to do their own bitching and one concentrate on flying his aeroplane.
I'm not even going to answer your allegation that I 'must be' MOB, that just shows a mentality that anyone who doesn't agree with your personal opinion(s) leaves themself open to such an allegation.

Phileas

I have no connection with Emerald other than browsing through this thread. I've no wish to be personal old chap, but you do seem to come across with highly self-righteous views in this 'debate'.

If I felt that engineers and accountants and ops people were not making a full contribution to the team(through either personal weakness or management/organisational failing), then I'd feel quite justified in airing my view. To imply that pilots should simply do what they're paid to do and keep it zipped on other issues is, in my laymanistic view, unrealistic and unhelpful. Equally, I'd expect the engineers, accountants and ops people to voice THEIR opinions over perceived unsatisfactory elements of the Company that are not within their bailiwick. It's life, it's healthy, and it makes for a better team in the long run - when properly managed.

The culture which you espouse doesn't seem to be helping within BA right now?

Ladies & Gents, don't let this degenerate into a slanging match. I'd also like to warn about using real names.

:suspect:

Jindabyne,
So how is it constructive to air 'dirty washing' in public?

I don't know the first thing about flying a plane, should I start to criticize how pilots perform their duties? Is this 'healthy' and will it lead to a better team?

I don't think so!

Phileas

Missing the point. I'm not talking about how the engineer tightens a nut, or how the pilot flies his aircraft - it's more about how they contibute in general terms to overall Company performance. Individual skills are not the issue in this discussion, are they?

the only way emerald operates is on the goodwill of the staff at the sharp end.

by and large crews will carry defects not in the log to get the a/c round the houses on a particular night schedule.

engineers wont snag a/c if at all possible till the end of the flying programme.

ops will make sure there are crews available even if it means waking people up at 0300hrs

and all the other unsung heroes of emerald will do there very best in demanding conditions to get the job done

but would MOB be impressed with all this?......i doubt it.

his view would be "well you have a job dont you"

his idea of aircrew and engineering is that they are a neccesary evil within the aviation industry.

trouble is he wont tackle his staffs problems he wouldnt dare come on here or address his staff directly and explain things he would rather hide behind his puppets and let them do the dirty work.

all IMO of course and what do i know in mobs words im just another f***** d****** member of staff

the big problem is it could be a fantastic place to work but its managed into mediocrity by so called "industry experts"

Germstone,
You speak a lot of truth there but would you really expect any Chief Executive to come here to discuss matters with his staff?

I would add however that the 4 complaints you have listed are somewhat commonplace within the industry. I'm not suggesting that every airline operates this way, just that such practices are not unusual.

The difference in your situation however is that rather than get a pat on the back, you get a slap on the head and driven into the ground more than you were previously.

Look on the bright side though, you're probably using Emerald as a stepping-stone in your career, things should get better!

I've read a lot about being rostered into discretion. Such a practice is illegal but so is the practice of those Captains who have other jobs and don't declare their duty hours in accumulation with their flying duties.

It's a long time since I've read CAP371 but I recall it clearly stating to the effect that ALL duty hours shall be recorded and rest periods / days off shall be free of ALL duties. Whilst this is no excuse for rostering into discretion it does show that some, I repeat some. individuals only choose to quote the regulations when it suits them.

These particular individuals would be operating illegally, probably, on a daily basis if they're not utilising their rest periods etc. as per CAP371.

Not taking anything away from yourself though Germstone, yours was a pretty accurate post.

hi

appreciate that response Phileas

mainly a dig and kick up the ass for the upper management at emerald. ARE YOU LISTENING????

with very little effort and good feedback from the troops they could make the whole place a much better and slicker operation.

but are they prepared to listen???...... the answer is sadly no.

they would rather bury there heads in the sand and let the whole operation muddle through as always!

I read this recently:

'if the mobster has made up his mind and issued an edict that FTLs are wrong and should be used as a guide only'


The FTL's are as per the Operations Manual, not necessarily CAP371. The Operations Manual is approved by the 'Campaign Against Aviation', if it is said these FTL's are wrong then the Operations Manual needs amending, of course such an amendment will need to be approved by the CAA.

Until such time as the OM is amended then you should operate to what it dictates, it is not advisory, it is mandatory!

I'm not sure what an 'edict' is but if it's something that is intended to override the OM then surely it should be a 'Flight Crew Notice', which I believe should also be copied to the CAA.

I believe that such a Flight Crew Notice, or even an edict, cannot be issued by the Chief Executive, it needs to come from the Head of Flight Operations, if you have one!, or his deputy.

Not suggesting stupidity here but are you sure people are being rostered into discretion, I only say this because I have known commonplace confusion regarding such things as split-duties and FDP off-duty times. An FDP ends at final on-blocks, it's the DP that ends 15 or 30 minutes later, that's not discretion!

Unfortunately Phileas, the fact that I am a "team player" comes across by the fact that I DO give a monkey's about what happens to the other departments. After all, aren't we all trying to achieve the same goals?

If I went to the CP and mentioned about spares, then he would be correct in not acting directly, the state of the spares inventory is down to the engineering manager, NOT the Chief Pilot.

Phileas is not the MOB, though he is known to peruse and often post on PPRUNE, I find it sad that our 'dirty laundry' has to be aired in public on an anonymous forum, just to try and get some action.

Having a decent amount of spares may not be that usual, but most airlines usually have more than a couple of spare tyres, which we don't even have very often!

Why should any company be happy about being a stepping stone? Having a stable workforce can only ever be a good thing, currently the vast majority of flight crew (non LPL based) are looking to move on. Not because of the job or pay, but because of the contemptous way we are treated on a regular basis. For example, down in the Coventry base the toilet block lights failed, despite repeated requests nothing has been done and that was over 3 weeks ago!! How happy would you be at 1 in the morning trying to pee in the dark! :oh: If the HSE ever made it into that hangar............

With referance to FTL's, as a professional pilot, you should know the rules and if you are rostered illegally, then you should do something about it BEFORE the duty starts. This has happened to me on occasion and with a phone call to Ops, it is usually sorted out. If you know the rules, then no matter what pressure they try to put you under, you can always refuse, safe in the knowledge that you are in the right. It may cause much wailing and gnashing of teeth, but that's their problem. My licence is worth far more to me Emerald is.

Should we be put in this position, no of course not, but the onus is on us to make sure what we do is correct.

Phileas, I can assure you that people are regularily rostered into discretion on Flight Duty, NOT total Duty time. I've lost count of the times I've seen people fiddle their FD, not a practise I condone at all.

Why should any company be happy about being a stepping stone?

Say Again,
It is the nature of the beast. From the day a commercial pilot steps into the industry his goal is to be flying a big shiny jet, preferably during daylight.
Any turbo-prop operator, particularly a geriatric turbo-prop operator flying night freight, has to accept that such pilots aren't going to stick around any longer than is necessary.
The exception to the rule will be those nearing retirement age or the ones with other occupations. This is no excuse for treating staff with contempt but it is the nature of the beast.
From the sound of it, you are not 'originally rostered' into discretion but are 'roster changed' into discretion. I can speak with some authority when I say that there is a lack of understanding of the regulations within Operations, not saying all, but some.
Emerald cannot attract Operations staff of experience, partly thru reasons that have been flogged to death already, partly thru being off the beaten 'aviation' track, a lot to do with salaries and lets face it, and much the same as a pilot who wants to fly a shiny jet, can an Operations guy consider his ultimate goal to be working in a portakabin with bars on the windows!
Accordingly, Emerald struggles to find experienced senior Operations personnel and the assistants, well some are better than others but they're just young guys, plonked in the chair and told to get on with it.
Unless things have changed, staff training, well what staff training and by whom? Much the same as your situation, it's results that count and how those results are achieved, well who cares!

That's exactly the situation in relation to rostering! Though it does seem as if a shake up is happening currently, and every time I speak to them there is a new person around, we'll see what happens.

Your point about Emerald always being a stepping stone is valid up to a point. For many, it will always be just that, but some have no intention of moving on, particularily in Liverpool.

I object to the way all the staff are treated, just because they aren't expected to stay for very long, but, if people were trated in a non-bullying manner and with some basic respect, then the issue of staff turnover would be greatly reduced, especially amongst the Op's bods, who quite frankly have an almost impossible task on occasion.

i think the above post sums emerald up to a tee


all departments make the impossible happen but do we get any thanks? do we get regular pay reviews? (at least 4 years since any rise).............no the beatings wil continue until morale improves.

i have no axe to grind emerald pays my mortgage bills etc etc but leaves me very little to have any sort of standard of living and as mentioned basically ive taken a pay cut 4 years running....that is unless inflation has been zero!

some basic improvements in working conditions and practises a resonable pay rise across the board and some appreciation of the staff that make emerald profitable.

would pay dividends in the long run

i say again "ARE YOU LISTENING EMERALD MANAGEMENT"

I'm a first timer at prune so please be gentle!
As far as I'm concerned all I'm looking for is a bit of stability. At present I feel the morale is rock bottom.
Stability was achieved with Streamline so why can't it be done with Emerald?
At Streamline we were sufficiently crewed so that we could have a rolling roster which enabled you to plan for the weeks ahead, which in turn provided you with a social life! (I've definately forgotten how that used to feel). A call from ops outside of standby hours or on days off would be to ASK not TELL you to do a shift, which usually resulted from either crew sickness, a/c tech or possible charter (not cock ups from HQ).
I could go on and on and on but I don't want to give the perception of being a streamline lover/emerald hater. Believe me I truly believe Emerald has the potential to be a decent airline. Oh well here goes........

Possible solutions to boost morale:
1) Rolling roster for cvt and ltn (not difficult)
2) Expenses and duty pay paid on time
3) SOME NOT ALL ops staff to possibly attend our CRM sessions and have a grasp of the FTL'S. Remember manners don't cost anything.
4) Standardise contracts-come on it's been long enough now. (2 pilots do the same job but 1 gets paid 4.5k less per year.
5) A light bulb for the cvt toilet.

Other than that it's happy days my fellow buddies!

A light bulb for the cvt toilet.

that ones easy go out buy one and fit it yourself(in true emerald fashion)...put receipt in

wait for it to be authorised

wait for it to go to accouts

wait for it to be processed

payment arrives maybe 1-2 months after


ahhhhhh maybe thats why nobodys been and bought one

1-2 months, that's quick! I've stuff that's still 3-4 months outstanding and that's pretty normal.

FTL/Common Sense Lesson 1:

1. At what point may a crew member opt to exercise discretion:

A. Once that duty has commenced?
B. During the commercial planning stage?
C. Before that duty has commenced when Ops are in the sh1t?

2. When does a crew member legally need 11/12 hours
uninterupted rest?

A. Immediately after a duty period?
B. Immediately before a duty period?
c. Whenever the damn phone stops ringing?

3. If a crew member is on regular nights at what time might it be sensible to call him for a roster change so as not to interupt his sleep(s), let us say off duty at 0400, next report 2200?

A. Before 1200?
B. Between 1200 and 1600?
C. After 1600?

4. Define 'suitable accommodation'?

A. A 2 star hotel in Runcorn adjacent to the dual carriageway
and railway line to London?
B. A cheap guest house on IOM?
c. A quiet room where the levels of light and temperature may
be controlled?

i can't understand youz lot who write so much about emerald. save your efforts and repeat after me

a right shower of ????

Guys

I know we have had to wait but this is all about to get sorted. Or at least it will get our best shot.

'Say again', 'Phileas', 'germstone' et al - if you are Em crew and signed up with Balpa, you will get all the details soon. Will be looking for your support when we (the crews) start trying to sort these problems out for real. If you are not members, please join!! If you don't see any changes in the next few months, feel free to quit. But right now we need you all in.

It will though be interesting to see how many pitch in and help me and how many just like to stand and complain!

Guys, if you need to, PM me. Otherwise hang on a few more days. ;)

I wouldn't pin too many hopes on Balpa, they're very good at taking your money but protecting the workforce, just ask any Dan Air pilot that was there at the end!

I'm not. I'm pinning my hopes on me, you and the rest of the crews having the getup to do something given the opportunity.

It's better to try and fail than to p*ss in a toilet with no light - as Confucious may have said, had he been at CVT!;)

some interesting posts coming in.

ok as crews with balpa being quite small in numbers in the scheme of things at emerald.

any way we can bring the full weight of the workforce into the proceedings.

As I feel the only way forward is to have the whole workforce make there feelings known and force the issue as emerald management will never listen to distant voices but a big shout from the troops may promt them to sit up and listen.

4 years with no pay review is like treating the staff with contemp and also is a massive insult to the hard working staff which make emerald profitable

Germstone - drop me a PM if you want to know more and are not in Balpa. Unless you are the MOB that is - then we'll be speaking soon anyway.;)

Phileas, nice one!:ok:

H&T, I'll be interested to see how it goes, I'm not bailing yet and my BALPA subs are up to date, go get 'em buddy!

2 points of interest,

1) All the lights in the toilet at CVT are out suggesting a more serious problem than just a bulb, maybe a fuse?

2) Even when the lights were working, there was a disgusting smell of rotten p**s outside the hanger door, particularly in dry weather, maybe the next groundschool should include toilet training sessions for those too lazy to get the key to the loo.

dear emerald aircrew

please check out the thread below as it relates to the way your aircraft are looked after......or not as the case may be.



http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hlight=emerald

one of the engineers wanted you made aware as a moderator had moved the thread.

We know mate - we have to fly them!:(

CVT Bog lights
 

At great expense the illuminations have now passed their MOT and the lights are now on all over Europe. End of p dark

HOORAY


emerald now have something that works.........!!!

H&T check your PM:ok:

Just out of interest say again slowly how long have you been working for Emerald Airways? You see I couldn’t help but notice that you registered on 28th March 2000, but have only recently started making posts on Emerald Airways. Also you posted at the end of 2003 that you where in search of your first airline position (I’ll spare you the link).

I think you should be careful about what you say on a public forum as it doesn’t take a genius to work out who a Shed pilot in the company 7 or 8 months or so may be. Narrows it down quite a bit doesn’t it. Now before you accuse me of being MOB I will just state I am not, nor am I connected with Emerald Airways in any way. Also I must say as a relatively new employee of Emerald I find it incredible that after such a short time you have developed such disdain for the company who has given you the opportunity which will no doubt lead to bigger things.

Also you are on VERY dodgy ground claiming that you are, quote, “regularly rostered into discretion”. Sorry but I don’t accept that for one minute. If that was happening on a regular basis the CAA audit which occurs every six months (don’t forget the random spot checks which can, and probably do occur) would put Emerald in deep !!!!. Being rostered into discretion is illegal. If they are rostering into discretion the ops staff will also have to go back and change the rosters of the pilots, which incidentally have to be kept on file, to avoid being bubbled by the CAA. Best make sure you have a COMPLETE understanding of FTL’s, FDP's and the nature of discretion before you approach the authority with that little chestnut.

Now if I have incorrectly assessed your profile I do apologize, and feel free to correct me.

Impressive,
I believe, rather than being rostered into discretion, it is moreso instances of untrained Operations staff, on or near to the day, re-rostering the pilot without understanding the regulations.
A simple explanation of 'excuse me sunshine, is that not illegal?' to the Ops guy would be sufficient and which is understood to be happening but it's much more sensational to say 'rostered into discretion', a little bit like 'BA crash landing in Entebbe', attention seeking I guess.
Yes, Emerald does have it's problems but many of them are 'industry standard', much of the complaints seem to be guys in their first airline believing they are the only ones hard done by and once they move on from Emerald the streets will be paved with gold!

Phileas

It's a little unfair to say that guys in their first airline job have no right to complain!

Whether its your first or last job with an airline or any other company for that matter, you have a right to decent treatment. Many of the problems with Emerald are not industry standard - I don't know of any other airline that does not provide food, drink and toilets for it's crews.

When you join Emerald, you are fully aware of the salary. What you are not aware of, for example, is that the company will arbitrarily change the command requirements to suit a complaining minority, without consulting the pilots, thereby taking away commands from several who were due and qualified.

All we want is reasonable treatment. The average burger flipper at McD's gets treated better than we do.:yuk:

H&T,

Quote: It's a little unfair to say that guys in their first airline job have no right to complain!

I didn't say that nor anything of the sort, I was merely making a point that many, not all, of the complaints are not unique to Emerald.

Quote: I don't know of any other airline that does not provide food, drink and toilets for it's crews.

A toilet where, on the aeroplane? Food & Drink, well try a low cost Irish carrier just for starters, drink OK but food, many airlines have stopped providing food, like I said, many such problems are not unique to Emerald.

Like I accepted, Emerald has it's problems, you've continued to itemise some of these which I'm not in a position to comment on but some of the other complaints are industry standard.

Impressive, if you read my post properly, you will see that I mention that our rosters get changed and put us over our allowable flight duty period. If this is not being rostered into discretion, then I don't know what is, but as I have stated before, the onus is on all of us as crew to make sure what we do is 'legal', so as Phileas mentions a quick call usually sorts it out albeit with the occasional argument. If you know the ops manual properly and the FTL's, then you shouldn't have a problem though.

Emerald is not my first company, but even if it was, as H&T says, why should you put up with shoddy treatment. I've been there a bit longer than 7 or 8 months too!

I personally couldn't give a monkey's about crew food and drink, the issues I have I've already stated.
I really would like to see the company prosper, even if from purely selfish reasons, but I feel like I'm staring into the abyss sometimes when you see the unrest, unfortunately if it carries on like this, I can see the awful prospect of Emerald getting into serious difficulties as we lose contracts because we don't have the staff or available machines to complete what is asked of us and that suits no-one.

Just out of interest, what is your understanding of fdp's and discretion? The flight duty period starts when you report for duty 45 mins or 1 hour before the flight depending on the contract and ends when you go off duty back at base or in the hotel if away. Discretion is used solely as a means of getting a duty finished that has ALREADY BEGUN!!! You cannot legally roster someone into discretion. It is illegal and Emerald would lose their AOC if found by the CAA to be doing such practices. This i know to be true from links i have to the CAA. They do not condone illegal rostering in any form and regular checks, which incidentally are often done without warning, are carried out. I think you are getting confused about what is and isn’t allowable. Ops/ Crewing can ask a crew to do a duty/ favour, and if this request is within 12 hours then they are perfectly within their rights to refuse. Normal practice for airlines is to give 12 hours minimum notice of a duty so technically anything within this could be seen as a favour. Your duty does not however start when you receive that call unless you are actually on standby. Ops could legally not give you a roster that jeopardized your rest at base etc as they simply aren’t allowed. All duty times and rest periods are entered into a database that flags up inaccuracies in fdp/ dp/ rest and this CANNOT BE FIDDLED! Discretion is only used once a duty has begun, and a max of 2 hours is allowable. Also anything over 1 hours discretion and/ or 1 hours reduction in rest must be submitted to the CAA in writing, and so regular rostering of the kind you suggest would instantly be flagged up and your company would be in deep !!!!. So therefore if wx is !!!!e or the aircraft is tech you can as a crew elect to use your discretion and continue. You also can elect not to as is within your rights, and i would suggest that if you feel you are being illegally rostered into discretion you tell your operations/ crewing department and let them sort it out.

Impressive,
It is not so unusual for a pilot not to clearly understand FTL's and you yourself have just proved this point.

The FDP does not end when one goes off duty at base or when one reaches the hotel if away from base.

The FDP ends when one is 'on blocks' on one's final sector thus any discretion would end at that point. Thereafter, and under normal circumstances, there is a nominal period of perhaps 30 minutes between end of FDP and off duty.

If away from base and travelling to a hotel then this is covered under FTL's 'travelling time'. Under normal circumstances what time one may reach a hotel bears no reflection on the FDP, DP or discretion.

If your 'links' to the CAA say otherwise then they are talking from their butt!

This has already been covered with the Emerald Guys and previously established, before your recent posts, that Emerald are not producing illegal rosters but it is untrained Operations staff changing rosters without checking or indeed understanding the FTL's.

Say Again claims this to be illegal rostering and I guess from his personal point of view, that he finds he has been rostered illegally, he feels justified to say this but, Emerald are not producing illegal rosters, they are however not training their staff correctly if at all!

What Phileas says is also my understanding. What time you get to the hotel or go off duty doesn't affect your FDP, but it does affect how much rest you need. For instance if you have done a 15 Hr duty you need 15 Hrs rest, though your Flight Duty may only have been a couple of hours. There is nothing 'illegal' about this, but you do have to have enough rest.

You cannot be asked to go into discretion, or rostered into it and our original rosters do not ever do this, Unfortunately as the roster are about as accurate musket mistakes happen constantly. A culture has seem to have been built up where crews will change their on duty times in order to not have to file discretion reports, so very few get filled in. I don't like that one at all.