L-38
Good to see someone who has done his homework.

..Thanks'.

They may be furloughed and reinstated iaw the CBA but they sure are not being paid. What happened to the guarantee?

All just a matter of time.

Well for all you Polar guys that are not sharing in the furloughs with your Atlas brothers and sisters, you will probably be glad to hear that another 20 engineers and another 100 pilots will hit the street. Expect the announcement in the next couple of days.

Fr8Dog
Having spent two and a half years and two arbitrations, in a terminated, reinstated, furloughed, reinstated although unpaid status, the Polar PFE's aren't happy about anyone being put in a similiar position.

I hate to hear when anyone hits the streets Fr8. It is heart breaking, and maddening. In this environment it may be hard to do but I hope that everyone finds another seat somewhere.

PFE to FO
 

Well, even if you get your tickets does not guarantee anything. Myself, I went and got my ratings, got upgraded and now because I am an FO, I will be in the streets after 10 yrs in atlas. But again, this is nobodies fault but our own because we could it have one seniority list like Polar, but no, we voted (I could not vote, I was furlough at the time) for 2 list instead. I am so happy for the unity we have in Atlas, I think and I always thought Polar had it right!!:D

Fr8-

We had guys on the street when Atlas didn't just a couple of years ago.

It's not about sharing anymore. It's about two seperate seniority lists until a combined CBA is reached. That's when the real mess will begin as sorting out furloughs out of seniority are probably going to show.

As far as a seperate list for F.E's let this be a lesson about F'ing your buddy to get what you need. What a crock of poo that was. Shame on whoever set that mess up. It's terrible to see a guy/gal with all those years of service get kicked to the curb just because he improved himself by advancing to the front of the airplane. And yes, it's bad to see anyone get kicked to the curb.

Take a pay cut upper management, middle management. That'll cut some cost. What? You're worried you can't live on a high six figure salary? Yeah, that's what I thought. Your ears all of a sudden went deaf didn't they?

And yes, I speak from experience. Three furloughs and a job loss by no fault of my own.

I wish everyone well.

Heard a rumor that Polar is closing their Narita operations down. Guess that DHL - Polar Express deal is not working out so well after all.

Do you loose those NRT route authorities after a period of non use?

I thought we were all on the same team now nitty, since we MOVED ON and all...:ugh:

People are losing jobs and you can't drop the pettiness for awhile. :=

Yes you do, Nitty . . . . I was once told that FedEx had used an empty C-208 Cessna Caravan at NRT, just to operate a daily landing so as to keep their NRT slots (not sure of the validity of this).

Polar's PVG slots are also now in question . . . if all true, watch as AAWW's stock tank's even further.

Actually, legit questions for the future and merger of the groups.

As to "on the same team", that doesn't seem to be coming around to one contingent here unless it selectively suits them.

I don't see any messages (except 1) from the Polar side coming through the union and a pretty non participatory polar/atlas conference call by the same person of the Polar representation. All I hear about are how the Polar guys are not going to pay dues, NOT JOIN THE UNION, and file for a DFR (that should cost some bucks) when DH'd with them. If roles were reversed and I worked at Polar under ALPA, I could see the formation of a new LIST being passed around to union carriers. I'm curious how the new IBT union will deal with it?

So you will have to forgive me. Your response seems even more petty in view of how one group is continuing on and then mentioning "SAME TEAM" in the same breath.



L-38

Thanks for the info.

I don't think it is that the polaroids will not pay the dues, it is just they will not have an automatic check deduction. I think there is a lot of mistrust as to what the IBT will do in representing the whole group. Do not get to hard on the polar guys until the proof is in the pudding. As distastful as it may be, in the end they will step up to the plate. Isn't that what is wanted in the end?

The mistrust began with ALPA National representing only one minority group (polar) that happened to vote for that current president. Favoritism at its best and not fair representation among the two councils.

That resulted in where we are now. At the IBT through the decertification process and under the NMB determination that we are a single carrier. Easier and cheaper than doing a DFR against ALPA National. Representing the WHOLE ATLAS/POLAR GROUP is not accomplished by representing just the Polar interests alone as was done under ALPA. It's the combined Atlas/Polar group now. That doesn't seem to suit the Polar group reflected by their lack union participation now. Being a union member at selective times of convenience is not being a union member.

I'm curious if Prater knows he screwed the pooch by doing what he did or is content on just blaming someone else. Most likely the latter.

PVG still open, going to restart ops there soon. Also, I heard that the merger is off. FAA won't allow it. Polar (DHL) filed with the Sec to separate from worldwide.

I hope you are wrong about this

Total BS, SEC has NOTHING to do with the OWNERSHIP of Polar by AAWH.

Hope your right jocko. Fact is,, there is not one Polar pilot that wants to merge with the "Atlas girls". Not one.

Sounds like someone has been talking to B.H. again. Look at what that collectively got you the last time at Polar.

Guess it's time to quit then.

I see the whole thing is going to start again!

We need Rodney King naaaaaaa never gonna happen.

Tom, Please do not let these a.h.'s raise your b.p. it is just not worth it.

doesn't make sense UNLESS the fleet is further reduced.


Ummmm .. I think that is what he was suggesting.

Can anyone shed light on how the new Titan Airline will change things?

Titan Airline?
 

Don't know of a "Titan Airline." Titan Aviation, on the other hand, is another wholly-owned subsidy of AAWH that provides numerous services (primarily dry leasing) except crewing--AAWH will do that.

I suspect they will be the leasing agent for any AAWH tin that they cannot utilize (or can't utilized do to legal constraints, ie, GSS).

From their site: "We are focused on the acquisition, sale, dry leasing, sales leaseback, marketing and servicing of commercial aircraft and related equipment."

Don't let all the fancy Photo Shop doctoring of Atlas Air aircraft fool you.

Titan
 

747 Newguy, How refreshing to see a post with some commonsense! :ok:

Atlas
 

Looks like more pilots and FE's will be hitting the street. I got my letter on the 17th of Feb,saying so long. However two days before, I got a call from NewYork saying Atlas is going Down to 1 747-200(7 fe's) and will be putting 100 pilots on the street. Lets hope this does not happen. That said they did not say who the pilots would be Atlas or Polar or both. Its not looking great for any of us.

Plain and Simple

AABO has got to GO!!

There has never been a better time to get rid of AABO than now. These individuals have enjoyed for several years the good life.

A "senior" 9 year old Captain was making up to 40,000 US more than a "junior" 11 year mainline Captain.

Based on that their salary, of course the have enjoyed a HIGHER profit sharing for the last several years.

In essence, they are all gateway WITHOUT having to pay taxes.

Company paid FAA medical twice a year.

Super Seniority for bidding, and displacing Atlas mainline.

The list goes on, and on withe the added bonus of NOT having to pay any union dues.

NO PILOT AT AABO has ever been furloughed!!!! or DOWNGRADED!!!

If allowed to continue these individuals will soon be also SENIOR to ALL POLAR PILOTS!!!!

Plain, and simple

AABO has got to GO....

And with all due respect, you need to go back and learn the history.

Using the current LOA to blame Bourne is like using the signature on the Securities Exchange Act to blame the 1929 stock market collapse on FDR.

Polax52 is 100% INCORRECT...his is a recitation of revisionist history from his former MEC leadership. In fact, the STN LOA was signed and T/A'd by the previous Atlas MEC headed by Greg Amussen, a friend of the former Polar MEC Chairman Bob Fell. When that T/A failed, the NMB allowed the new MEC, headed by Bourne, to only fix enough things in the failed agreement to make it pass. The STN LOA was not among them.

By virtue of the new contract being ratified in total, Bourne was required to sign the entire document. You cannot pick and choose what sections of a contract to sign and refuse to sign.

As to his new representation by the Teamsters, Captain Bourne works for Mr. Hoffa. It's fairly obvious to anyone who reads the public filings that your previous leaderships arbitration claims are full of hot air in regards to your belief that you can control your certificate and ownership. One can surmise that the legal department of the Teamsters was not born yesterday either and will soon advise you of the same. Which will leave Polar crewmembers with a dilemma. Either to suck it up, admit they were hoodwinked by their former leadership and get on with their careers, or refuse to be represented, in which case they simply should not join the union and refuse to pay their dues.

If history is a guide, they will capitulate, just as they did in 2005 when their Chairman, in a stunningly brave move, caved in to management less than 36 hours into a 30 day cooling off period which ended up costing their crewmembers over 200 jobs.

Getting back to the Titan, why was this company incorporated in the Republic of Ireland? Why not the UK or NY? Why are many cruise ships flaged in places like Liberia? Why is Delaware a place to set up a personal business not intended to succeed in the long run the US?

Perhaps, I am buying into to the photo graphics of what might be a new carrier under the IAA. Ryanair is pretty content about thier set up there and maybee I am thinking too much....

Instead of the horsecrap that passes as facts on pprune, one could just click on these links (Wall Street Webcasting - Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings and http://www.atlasair.com/holdings/AAW...2002-09-09.pdf) and listen to what the kool-aid is for the month.

In it you will find some interesting info regarding Titan, and other fun stuff. Make sure you look at the slides only link too, as there are a couple of changes from the ones put on the presentaton.

Of course, as tight as capital is these days, they might not actually lie to analysts and investors, thus pissing them off, and them removing equity positions and lines of credit.

Or just continue fighting battles that are, satisfactorily or not, settled. It's like a bunch of old people down here in heavan's waiting room arguing over a shuffle board game played 20 years ago.

CR2...thanks for the updates from your side.

All relates to the country / state with the most favorable tax rules, I believe.

Many, if not most internationally operated companies, create offshore leasing companies to minimise tax exposure. Good way to upstream money without paying hefty taxes in the unfriendly taxed country of the parent corporation.

I'm surprised Atlas took so long with creating Titan. Maybe someone was lining their own pockets with the existing onshore leasing companies that held the leases of A/C to Atlas/Polar. I remember three past ones. Atlas Leasing I, II, and III. Don't remember how those fell out after the bankruptcy.

I've done the offshore leasing company myself. It's legal and helps shelter your onshore company from more hefty taxes.

I would only get concerned about Titan if it gained an airline certificate to operate the A/C. GSS has proven to be more of a problem if they choose to do so than Titan would be now. Exampled by how AAWW was going to move struck Polar A/C to GSS and then take the GSS A/C and give them to Atlas to operate during the Polar strike. They thought that was going to work to the point of them initiating compliance checks on the A/C envolved. That was up until the Atlas crews initiated their illegal sympathy strike for Polar (the one that ended up with a couple of Fed court orders saying to return to work).

Of course, I remember the past conspiracy theories with Focus and Tradwinds also.

Off the Titan webpage (Titan Aviation)

Emphasis added by me for effect.

Scope will be key in the combined CBA. If you didn't believe it before, anything less than a scope clause that binds ALL the parent company crewing to our seniority list and CBA will watch the next iteration of AACS/AABO take our jobs.

Oh, more fun facts: http://www.atlasair.com/holdings/02-...r%20Slides.pdf

The title of the first slide is just silly.....:ugh:

The key is getting scope under the Holding company and the companies controlled by or partially owned by, not just the individual airlines. Maybe something similar to Republic's contract.

Otherwise, they only have to start up a new spin off airline every time they want to circumvent a CBA. As proven by AAWW a few times over.

As to AABO/AACS, they could use them to start another crew leasing company outside of Atlas Air Inc. and STN. They just could not do it with the Atlas Airlines, Inc. They could start using them for another airline such as GSS via some base in Ireland. Crew leasing by AABO to GSS and A/C moved over and it's done.

Titan adverts the GCC,, in the next bullet they advert Ground Services,,,hmm. most of AAWW's Ground Pounders have been hosed at least as bad if not worse than thier crews. Seams the trend started as soon as Polar came onboard.... I'm just sayin'''''''.
Except for JFK and PIK my guess there isn't a Ground Services guy who wouldn't butt-jab AAWW and giggle.
So much for the ol' synergy arguement.

Oddly enough, Ryainair is an Irish company that falls under the IAA. I believe the IAA is the only JAR member state left that hands out validations to fly EI/JAA aircraft with a type rating from ANY ICAO state. They also have many non EU nationals such as Americans (North and South) flying legally with validations and EU/UK visas set up by Brookfield Av or Ryanair itself. Is it a coincidence that France, Germany, Spain and others do not?

Who is to say that the the aeroplane painted in photoshop will not have a EI reg on it (or did it?) and could be nothing more than a system that is being duplicated from Ryanair or as it's founding forfather who specailzed in what Titan is as advertised?

Understand the tax reason part of it all but when it comes to lack of power and success in Ireland recently with Ryanair; ALPA, BALPA, IALPA, and etc., could it leave a future pilot group to be left in the dark like those who fly at Ryanair as history has sadly proven?

For those who are wondering about scope, this could be a real catch me out! Is wise to buy into "psyops" of press releases genereated by some PR guy or look into the past of the last time there was a scenario like this in Ireland? The ultimate outcome was Ryanair today as you know it....