I'm confused. Didn't you, along with the other underground communications committee, say that the Atlas MEC and management are sleeping together? You better call back and get the right posting Bobb or better yet Robin wants posted.

Whether the MEC had a hand in it or not, Atlas crews have won compared to Polar. Still not enough in my opinion.

Guess you didn't get the memo and it's not from the arbiter. WhaleFR8 referenced a number of the documents and releases.

If you want the truth, you need to seek it out. Do not wait for it to be presented to you by someone that wants to tell you what they want you to hear such as Bobb H., Robin Hair or on these threads. Verify it via an independent source with nothing to gain from it. Of course, if you like what Bobb and Co. is telling you don't bother. I wouldn't want to interfere with the dream.

I find it kind of funny that Bobb H. has not made a new VARS to crow about the seniority list award. He has been quick to claim victory in the past.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/merger/logs.pl

That is one fine piece of fiction there merc. Flies in the face of everything I read. It seems Polar has out argued you several times. Now I suggest you read the Polar scope clause before you write anything else. This one is in the hands of the arbitrator and we are awaiting a much delayed answer. And, as I wrote earlier, the longer it is delayed the more the chances are that the decision went against the company. It happened on the last two grievances and I belive it will on this one too. If that happens, o-o-o-o-ey, that will really shake things up!

Tiger Guy
 

MercP:
Do you have a little trouble counting? The Polar pilot list shows 269 pilots not 170 as you say. Then there are about 60-70 PF/E's. Good spin on who's fault the list is. Not only the arbitrator against you. looks like the two pilots on the board as well. Whoops! I forgot Amundsen and Weiss. Dam those guys, they did it in 2001. Any chance you could have then taken out and shot? A least have then tarred and feathered.
So Bourne and Caputo were too busy to get involved with anything as minor as the seniority list merger. Nice going let your merger committee carry the can.

The company told us that the Polar pilots were going to number 190 after the furloughs - of those, there were just shy of 170 who were line pilots due to 20 or so who are full time union, military and/or LTM. I believe that is where merc's number came from.

The 60-70 PFEs are on the list as you say but will be re-furloughed and will most probably never come back due to the no-bump/no-flush clause and the fact that the classics are on the way out.

WhaleFR8 covered the 170 thing. The FE's may be back on the payroll, but that will only be for a short time until they are properly furloughed instead of terminated.

As far as Amussen and Weiss, they were trying to keep things together while everything Atlas crews had was being moved to Polar and AACS as leverage against us and furlough crews. They just showed poor judgement in their negotiation skills on that secret agreement in 2001 which tied our hands in 2006 somewhat and on a number of other things in our current CBA. My beef with Weiss is that he flat out lied in several ways about the seniority merger LOI. Was kept secret at first, then later said it never happened, then later said it was only a rough draft, and then some other BS technicality thing later. Then we finally see the hard document signed by them all. That left us open to getting sandbagged out of his petty pride over the mistake he wanted hidden.

I think under section 45, the merger committee is required to work independent of the MEC during the merger process. Of course, they communicate I'm sure. Tell the truth, after listening to what some third party people said, we were lucky to not get stuck with the Red-Blue (Polar) list.

We did get the "no bump, flush, or system rebid." Without that, as in the Red-blue list, we would have had many Atlas guys on the street instead of Polar guys . We got a little bit better list integration than the Reb-blue list also. If you compare relative seniority and taking into account the "no bump, flush, or system rebid", we didn't do all that bad after dissecting the award from the arbiter. Still sucks, but not all that bad considering Polar originally had a signed agreement to essentially kill us until Bourne withdrew from it when he found out about it. That also helped in the arbitration BTW.

So, for whatever spin you want to count that as.

Tiger Guy
 

MercP
You have to be kidding me you were going to leave out the guys who are over in Iraq and those doing their military duty? I know the military would have something to say about that. What were you doing going to the company for information? The company is to have NO imput whatsoever.
Why did you think you could leave out furloughed pilots? If I were a pilot neutral I would also take a negative view of any group that would have the gaul to try that. Possibly that is why the list came out the way it did.
What I understand about the F/E's is J.C. tried to terminate them because he could not furlough them. You seem to relish that fact they may be furloughed. Personally I never want to see anyone loose their job.

Lost numbers are somewhat relative when 5 to 6 A/C are added to the equation.

Tried the math and couldn't duplicate it the way you stated a couple of different ways. Maybe you or I miscounted.

Maybe your just fishing on who I am. Why don't you just pull that trigger and lets see what happens? I'm really used to guns going off in close proximity to me and I still have the marks from the last couple of times. Rhetorical and physical.

This is a little off subject, but it didn't seem to bother the Polar guys to list guys on military leave in Iraq and medical leave as SCABS during your strike.

Maybe I missed something? Where did I say anything about "going to the company for information?" In general, they won't talk to me any more. I might publish some of their public releases at best.

As far as "Why did you think you could leave out furloughed pilots?" The "no bump, flush or system rebid" part of the arbitration award did and the fact that Polar does not have any -200's for FE's thus allowing for their furlough. I can get into the potential awards of the Alliance grievance if you want, but Bobb might not like that. Especially since we have a clue on how it will come out.

I don't relish anyone getting furloughed or fired. It is contrary to my being and many Atlas guys will vouch for me on this. I just have less sympathy for those at Polar considering how they sh!t on us in a number of ways unity wise.

Sure they were meant to be left out - the company staffing model cannot include them until they come back. There are actually only about 5 MIL if I remember right - the rest are like Homerbob - on long term medical. How do you suppose the company can include them in a staffing model.

Point of fact is that J.C. under oath said he wanted to furlough your FE's and Bobb, bob,a nd bobbin would not hear of it - they actually insisted that the FE's be kept on or terminated. - Go figure!

Tiger Guy
 

J.C. said WHAT under oath, now that IS funny. That SOB can't remember the last time he told the truth. I can't tell you how little credit I give to that statement.
The "No bump, NO flush " Merc seems so proud of, is standard merger policy. No big deal. All mergers should have that.
Only five military, were you planning to leave them out? A crewmember can not loose seniority while on military service. He has to be given a number and that is his on return. A furloughed crew member should gets his number and can't bump working crew but if he is the most senior on furlough he is the first recalled and slots into his number.
From what I hear those F/E's are collecting their pay. Go Figure
I don't want to see anyone furloughed or terminated. I have no respect for a person who wishes that on any crewmember at any airline.

Take a breather. Soak up some O2 and rejoin the formation.

Yes, JC probably did want to furlough the FE's, but he was heavy handed in the way he went about it. JC, (in his typical style) dictated to the FE's an insulting choice with no options, then gave them a slim time line to collectively decide. The insulted FE's thus voted (in effect allowing JC to fire them, gambling that their injustice would eventually be righted).. . . . Bobb, bob, and bobbin had nothing to do with it other than to humbly transmit the FE's decision back to JC.

Today, the FE's arbitrated win was simply the result of poor (JC) management technique.


http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/quote.gif

Right now they are not sure how many aircraft, if any, could be forced back onto Polar's certificate. I said it once and I will say it again, the arbitrator's ruling is way over due and conventional wisdom is that it probably went against the company again, and it takes a lot longer to arbitrate a decision against a company than it is against a union. It is gonna get interesting that is for sure. By the way, every flight from ICN to ANC done by Atlas is a Polar classic flight. I checked it out on the company web site. And Polaroids have no work! You gotta be kidding!!!!

For those interested that do not know the Polar contract. For Cato to furlough the FE's as suggested by a few atlas types, let me educate you to the contract.
In order to furlough the FE's they have to furlough all the FO's and even some Captains to get to the number 1 FE. Then the company has to send out letter to everyone and reinstating those who are FO qualified, and there are a few FEs that fill that bill. The furloughee has 7 days in which to respond. Then whomever is called back will have to have a sim ride and a line check before qualification. That effectively will shut the company down for a while. That is why Cato tried what he tried. This is irrespective of the scope grievance which like I said, is indicating the company lost a gain, at least I hope so. Although I will never grace AAWH's property again as an employee, I take great pride in making them toe the line in regards to the CBA, thereby sticking it to them.

As I understand it, an arbitor is not empowered to make business decisions. He may be able to make it so painful that they change a business decision on their own.

Fer sure!
 

Wr8 has it correct; an arbitrator cannot force a company's hand and make it change its business plan. The 'painful' part is where the arbitrator has authority. While having no idea how many of the 57 terminated FE's decided to take the offer to return to the payroll (and the uncertain future that accompanies that decision), AAWH is on the hook for somewhere in the neighborhood of $400k a month if 50 or so of them returned. (A rather expensive neighborhood, considering you don't even get to live in the house you're paying for...) That seems to be a rather hefty price to pay for JC's poor business decision, not that I'm a business major, but...

It seems to me that if Atlas Air is still flying Classics full of Polar (even if it's disputedly Polar's freight or not), the wise thing to do would be to return those FE's to work and at least get some work for the money AAWH is paying them. But then we are talking about AAWH after all, aren't we?

But it also seems that many of them (if not all) are perfectly happy to collect a paycheck while allowing Atlas Air to reap all the 'glory'. Working for a living is a real drag, eh? :-)

Fr8_hound

Wow.!! drink that coolaide. Is that the reason Atlas bought Polar? Because Polar was losing money?. Let's get it together. This kind of conversation is exactly what mngmnt wants to hear.

No Atlas didn't buy Polar just because it was loosing money, but because they could do it for $80 Mil. Them loosing money was just a bonus!

Merry Christmas to all Atlas and Polar crewmembers, lets make 2007 a great year, and stand together against managment!

And to all the other Freight Haulers here on the forums, Happy Holidays!

Unity is Our Strength in '07!
 

Ditto again! Lets join forces not just for the good of our company, but for the good our industry! GO FRIEGHT DOGS!:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D