Teamsters shreading Polar quality of life contract
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What's wrong guys? Can't get your head wrapped around the idea that we ALL got sold out by DB & your beloved Teamsters? There will be NO VOTE on this piece of sh*t. You guys are clueless when it comes to arbitrations! Quality of life/work rule improvements - NONE. Maybe a small pay bump, but if they already did this, count on SCOPE to be out of the question & still be neutered by a NO STRIKE clause. The company's only negotiating proposals have been "Atlas book" unless they wanted to throw more holes in it.
Rather than be the Holier than thou spelling/grammar police; I'd suggest you hunt down SR and press him for the TRUTH. For that matter, call BK. He will tell the TRUTH to any & all Atlas or Polar pilot.
You may find it interesting to find out why we have the sub-par legal team up against the company's A-Team. Or better yet; why we have the arbitrator that we do. Before you spew any more hatred towards the Polar side...go ask direct questions to your reps (if you can even get ahold of them). Go get the details for yourself. We'll be waiting...
Rather than be the Holier than thou spelling/grammar police; I'd suggest you hunt down SR and press him for the TRUTH. For that matter, call BK. He will tell the TRUTH to any & all Atlas or Polar pilot.
You may find it interesting to find out why we have the sub-par legal team up against the company's A-Team. Or better yet; why we have the arbitrator that we do. Before you spew any more hatred towards the Polar side...go ask direct questions to your reps (if you can even get ahold of them). Go get the details for yourself. We'll be waiting...
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In this business you only get what you negotiate. The company ain't giving up one wooden nickel unless its more painful not to. I see thread after thread full of subterfuge, misdirection and babble from everything from mis-spelling to past union arguements. But the facts are we are giving concessions away while the company is rolling in money. Line pilots I know only care about two things. How many days at home and whats the pay. Both pilot groups are taking it in the shorts. How you can defend that is beyond me.
Cheers
Cheers
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In this business you only get what you negotiate. The company ain't giving up one wooden nickel unless its more painful not to. I see thread after thread full of subterfuge, misdirection and babble from everything from mis-spelling to past union arguements. But the facts are we are giving concessions away while the company is rolling in money. Line pilots I know only care about two things. How many days at home and whats the pay. Both pilot groups are taking it in the shorts. How you can defend that is beyond me.
Cheers
Cheers
So do tell us. Your guys got you zip in '05 and you're still taking it in the shorts. How's that working out for ya?
Who's buying you this week? BK telling the TRUTH? About what? More of Boobie's revisionist history?
Tell you what. Keep listening to him as he sells you and your jobs down the river. And if it's that bad here? Hey, Tradewinds is hiring. I bet they'd love you.
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The Polar strike happened to save the work rules. Grievences happened to save the work rules. The company HATES the Polar work rules. With proper work rules, the lower pay rate nets the same total $$$ as Atlas; if we all worked the same number of days, we can make more. Atlas book is garbage with absolutely NO WORK RULES. Do me a favor & READ both contracts side by side. Atlas has nothing. Name calling is childish & you my friend are a tool. The Teamsters is not a panacea that will bring you wealth & riches. In fact they are selling us (combined) out in record time, When DW & BK get voted down by the Atlas guys & Teamsters we all lose. We are going to be issued a sh*t contract in the end. Who will you blame then & why? Polar has won plenty of grievances; that's why they hate us. You guys don't have the intestinal fortitude to fight for a damn thing...although your grammar may be correct.
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I noted the locals President, J. Muckle, came out with a statement. Most likely to counter the back alley attempts by the Polar TEC to shoot the local and negotiation's committee in the foot, let alone violating the agreement of the negotiation terms. The Polar TEC wants to blow it up and this is their chosen method as they have attempted in the past. I guess they want to roll the dice with an arbiter making all the decisions on the contract for both groups during the upcoming merger arbitration. Alaska Airlines crews didn't do very well with an arbiter making the decisions and it cost them. The Muckle statement seems to put to rest a lot or at least as much as could be during ongoing negotiations of the purposely selected portions of the sect. 25 TA released by the Polar TEC to create more useless animosity again.
What B.K. and D.D. on the Polar side spread around behind the scenes seems to be select pieces of information for their group to start or get a reaction and create more discontent. Not something useful like, discontent in the management ranks but between the union groups again. Seems to be a repeat of history on how the Polar union side wants to conduct business inter-union again.
Listening to the Polar group during scheduled conference calls only confirms the Polar TEC separatist actions. It is clear the Polar group is given the wrong information. Many calls by the Polar side during conference calls are "when are we going to be able to strike!" Which is not an option in this merger at all. You guys need to realize that you have been told a lot of BS consistently through the years. History has proven this out also, which also has driven us to this point.
Always enjoy first time posters when new issues internally come up from the Polar side of the argument. It's almost like we have seen the writing before somewhere else.
What B.K. and D.D. on the Polar side spread around behind the scenes seems to be select pieces of information for their group to start or get a reaction and create more discontent. Not something useful like, discontent in the management ranks but between the union groups again. Seems to be a repeat of history on how the Polar union side wants to conduct business inter-union again.
Listening to the Polar group during scheduled conference calls only confirms the Polar TEC separatist actions. It is clear the Polar group is given the wrong information. Many calls by the Polar side during conference calls are "when are we going to be able to strike!" Which is not an option in this merger at all. You guys need to realize that you have been told a lot of BS consistently through the years. History has proven this out also, which also has driven us to this point.
- History such as why we decertified ALPA because of Polar's inequivalent representation purchased by Polar voting for Prater.
- History such as why the Atlas crew group got Battle Star's under your ALPA for conducting the only sympathy strike in ALPA history for another cargo carrier, but nothing but scab accusations by Polar when others flew your freight.
- History as the mentioned, "No Strike" clause at the risk of Atlas crewmembers jobs not crossing a line was determined by a federal judge that we didn't have to cross if someone at Polar held a legal picket line instead of just putting signs in the dirt around the airport which your MEC failed to mention to you.
- History of the Polar MEC lying about the three temporary restraining order's against the Atlas crewmembers by a federal judge. Of which, one upheld the particulars of the "No Strike" clause allowing our crewmembers not to cross.
- I can go on with documentation on much more such as their actions against Atlas crewmembers and not just strike stuff, but I'm tired and need another beer.
Always enjoy first time posters when new issues internally come up from the Polar side of the argument. It's almost like we have seen the writing before somewhere else.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 21st Aug 2010 at 19:13.
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Oh, now that's rich! Oh, yes sir Masser sir...I be just sittin' right here in da back 'o da bus & be keepin' my mouth shut. Uhm hmmm! The great arrogant geniuses have spoken. Sounds like a great basis for a DFR (Duty of Fair Representation) lawsuit. Let's see, 17 days extendable 3 for both line holders & reserve. Polar was 16 days extendable ZERO for line holders & 3 for reserve only. You must not like time off, huh? "Progress" was made in negotiations because you guys have successfully negotiated against yourselves. I'm sure the company never backed down from their non-proposals. I'm pretty confident that the "protections" being built in will have so many holes in them that you can fly a 747 through them. Not only that, but the company will "interpret" your so-called protections another way & tell you to grieve it. I hope I'm wrong, but I seriously doubt it. I hope you guys enjoy this sh*t sandwich for the next 10 years till it's time for another contract. Bottom line is that we both should be in seperate Section 6 negotiations right now & "merge" those contracts. Then there would have been leverage. D.B. saw to it that didn't happen. This would almost be laughable if it wasn't so painful & destructive. Guess what...once you caved on the days, you won't get them back later. Good on you! You guys are true men of genius! ;-)
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Hey Beachjet... where exactly did you get your information regarding the scheduling TA? I haven't seen anything released officially from the TEC or the negotiating team. Why beat each other over the head until we see exactly what it says? Maybe you have someone on the inside, perhaps a TEC co-chair?
Tell us where you got your information, please.
bpp
Tell us where you got your information, please.
bpp
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Hey Beachjet... where exactly did you get your information regarding the scheduling TA? I haven't seen anything released officially from the TEC or the negotiating team. Why beat each other over the head until we see exactly what it says? Maybe you have someone on the inside, perhaps a TEC co-chair?
Tell us where you got your information, please.
bpp
Tell us where you got your information, please.
bpp
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Call your reps & demand answers & not spin. In fact, call S.R. & D.B. & ask them why we don't have an experienced arbitration attorney like Dan Katz up against Segal. Ask them why we have the arbitrator we have rather than one of the FIRST list the company sent over. They gave them a pass because "they didn't mean to send that list"! Bullsh*t!
I get it...you guys hate everything Polar. The gap was 16+0 and 17+4. Line holders at Polar could NEVER be extended involuntarily. Hell, look around the industry. Even Evergreen has 16 days, two weeks of vacation takes out the whole month for guarantee, lower 48 trans-con is business class or better & outside the lower 48 business class or better. Not bad, eh?
Ya'll want to hurry this train wreck up. OK, Ready, Fire, Aim! We'd be better off with the arbitrator. Obviously you guys have never taken the time to read the Polar contract; I've read both cover to cover. This is only the first step. What happens next with Scope? Ask the A-Star/ABX guys how the big pay rates work without Scope. Go get the details on my first 2 items. You guys should be pissed off about the real answers.
Ciao
I get it...you guys hate everything Polar. The gap was 16+0 and 17+4. Line holders at Polar could NEVER be extended involuntarily. Hell, look around the industry. Even Evergreen has 16 days, two weeks of vacation takes out the whole month for guarantee, lower 48 trans-con is business class or better & outside the lower 48 business class or better. Not bad, eh?
Ya'll want to hurry this train wreck up. OK, Ready, Fire, Aim! We'd be better off with the arbitrator. Obviously you guys have never taken the time to read the Polar contract; I've read both cover to cover. This is only the first step. What happens next with Scope? Ask the A-Star/ABX guys how the big pay rates work without Scope. Go get the details on my first 2 items. You guys should be pissed off about the real answers.
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The great arrogant geniuses have spoken. Sounds like a great basis for a DFR (Duty of Fair Representation) lawsuit.
We on the Atlas side were actually told by ALPA legal staff we had grounds for a DFR against ALPA because of their actions under Prater. It was easier, quicker and cheaper to decertify them and we did. All because of Polar's and ALPA's actions. Taking our red headed step child (Polar) with us under the single carrier determination by the NMB which was filed by the Atlas crewmembers. Not that we wanted you, just strategy to keep Polar from being used against us as in the past.
My personal opinion is that your getting more representation than your group deserves considering your numbers to the whole group and not even considering your groups actions in the past. That aside, your group is just pissed that they no longer get preferential treatment as before. When splits happen on these issues the Local president (Muckle) gets the deciding vote and that is what happened. Don't it suck when there is a level playing field. Hell, I want to work only twice a month and none of those days on Saturday, but do I realistically expect that to happen? NO!
Judging from your groups past negotiating ploys and tactics, your group doesn't know how to negotiate looking at the results from your last contract and especially the time it took. So yes, sit in the back of the car and shut up The adults are talking. Your group has little understanding of what is realistic and just want to blow up the merger thinking someone wants your company.
I for one am tired of this constant whipsawing of Polar against Atlas and Atlas against Polar crews by management. The merger solves this. Thinking otherwise is being naive.
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OK, let's talk about the fact that the Teamsters had the perfect opportunity to put both Atlas & Polar into Section 6 because both of our contracts were beyond the ammendable date. We both should have had the same openers (not just the best of our current contracts...FedEx & UPS as well). Then it would be easy to "merge" the same contract & we'd have the leverage of the end-game of the Railway Labor Act (strike). D.B. wouldn't let that on happen. One horse out of the barn.
Alright, instead we go for the best of both. Polar work rules & Atlas payscale. That would have been beneficial to both, no? How long is this contract going to be & then how long to negotiate the next one beyond the ammendable date? For now, the value of the Polar work rules is gone for one less day of extension on your side. Not even the 16 days were kept. Guess what...it's much easier to get pay increases than getting the days back. Horse two gone.
I'll tell you what. I don't want to fight with you, so let's look at the positive shall we. We can talk about the exorbitant, windfall of a pay raise we will get for your one less day. Keep in mind you guys might, just might get a small pay bump for that one day while the wretches on the other side will be getting a HUGE raise.
Seems fair considering the quality of life work rules that had the company pretty much hemmed up will be destroyed. I'll be sitting here in da back 'o da bus. Drive on my brutha!
Alright, instead we go for the best of both. Polar work rules & Atlas payscale. That would have been beneficial to both, no? How long is this contract going to be & then how long to negotiate the next one beyond the ammendable date? For now, the value of the Polar work rules is gone for one less day of extension on your side. Not even the 16 days were kept. Guess what...it's much easier to get pay increases than getting the days back. Horse two gone.
I'll tell you what. I don't want to fight with you, so let's look at the positive shall we. We can talk about the exorbitant, windfall of a pay raise we will get for your one less day. Keep in mind you guys might, just might get a small pay bump for that one day while the wretches on the other side will be getting a HUGE raise.
Seems fair considering the quality of life work rules that had the company pretty much hemmed up will be destroyed. I'll be sitting here in da back 'o da bus. Drive on my brutha!
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OK, let's talk about the fact that the Teamsters had the perfect opportunity to put both Atlas & Polar into Section 6 because both of our contracts were beyond the ammendable date. We both should have had the same openers (not just the best of our current contracts...FedEx & UPS as well). Then it would be easy to "merge" the same contract & we'd have the leverage of the end-game of the Railway Labor Act (strike). D.B. wouldn't let that on happen. One horse out of the barn.
Lets DO talk about this, genius. Polar has been hollering for Separate Section 6 discussions since the merger was announced. Why? Because Polar still contends there is NO MERGER. Separate Section 6 discussions would, in their mind, only confirm it. Despite the fact that the entire airline has been merged and the carrier has been ruled a "single carrier." But not in your brilliant legal minds.
But let's go a step farther; or backward in this case. In 2005, when your MEC DEMANDED to be allowed to re negotiate your CBA prior to the merger, everyone said the same thing. Take what the company offers in $$, use it to strengthed your work rules. Get a deal and then we can go forward, combine the best of both and get a great CBA. Great job you did there. Once again, everyone was out to get poor, misunderstood Polar. The geniuses of the industry who caved in 36 hours into your cooling off. Who once again are being abused.
Alright, instead we go for the best of both. Polar work rules & Atlas payscale. That would have been beneficial to both, no? How long is this contract going to be & then how long to negotiate the next one beyond the ammendable date? For now, the value of the Polar work rules is gone for one less day of extension on your side. Not even the 16 days were kept. Guess what...it's much easier to get pay increases than getting the days back. Horse two gone.
Let's talk about amendable dates. Had your leadership not pissed off the company, Cato would have been gone in late '05...FACT. Thanks to Boobie, you guys breathed life into him. Why? Because no management is going to be seen as letting one of their own go because of a union. Especially one whose leadership is as psychotic as yours. Then there was your little issue of crapping on the only pilot group who walked out for you. Did FedEx? UAL? CAL? ANYONE????...
We could have; and in hindsight, should have, let you vaporize yourselves. You crapped on our people. Your leadership wanted to stop flights that supported Hurricane Katrina...and OUR TROOPS. How much support would anyone in ALPA had given you if that had gotten out?
We could have had a contract in '06...'07...could have stopped the decert DEAD IN IT'S TRACKS. When you whine about the IBT, look in the mirror. YOU are the reason. YOUR leadership coerced Prater into sandbagging the merger, despite the Executive Boards direction. They got tired of Bobbies cowboy boots and black back of "facts" that were feedlot dung. IBT?? You brought that on. Well done.
Call your reps & demand answers & not spin. In fact, call S.R. & D.B. & ask them why we don't have an experienced arbitration attorney like Dan Katz up against Segal. Ask them why we have the arbitrator we have rather than one of the FIRST list the company sent over. They gave them a pass because "they didn't mean to send that list"! Bullsh*t!
Tell us. How many times have YOU called S.R.? (Don't forget, phone's have records that can be checked)
And let's DO talk about Dan "Mr. Preparation" Katz. Who asked to Atlas side IN FRONT OF THE ARBITRATOR for documents that he didn't know existed that SUNK YOUR CASE. And whined when Jeff Freund said "no."
Let's TALK ABOUT his "expert bankruptcy witness." Whose sworn testimony showed that his "expertise" was five years of beer drinking at Auburn (his words) sitting in bankruptcy court and reading the WSJ.
We can talk about his lack of preparation, his P.O.'ing the arbitrator with being caught in lies. Yes, let's talk.
Let's talk about the document that he claimed no knowledge of from 2001 when your MEC was notified by the company that the merged Polar would only be 150 or so pilots and FIVE -400's. Confirmed by YOUR contract administrator, Ev Barber.
And lets talk about how he tried to get a third party to get an Atlas consultant to do work for him, not disclosing who it was for.
Yes, the BRILLIANT Dan Katz. Ask the Airways guys or anyone else he's represented how good he is.
I get it...you guys hate everything Polar. The gap was 16+0 and 17+4. Line holders at Polar could NEVER be extended involuntarily. Hell, look around the industry. Even Evergreen has 16 days, two weeks of vacation takes out the whole month for guarantee, lower 48 trans-con is business class or better & outside the lower 48 business class or better. Not bad, eh?
Nah, we don't hate you. We're just amazed on a daily basis how with such geniuses you have running your show, you haven't taken over the airline industry, hell, the WORLD!
The only thing I can't figure out is this. Why haven't you filed a greivance against Atlas for a scope violation on the Houston Shuttle? Your argument for struck work was that it included cargo from anyone who had EVER shipped a package on Polar.
So using that logic, I'm assuming somewhere along the line, you carried a casket or two. PASSENGERS!!! And now ATLAS is VIOLATING your scope by flying passengers!!!
Ya'll want to hurry this train wreck up. OK, Ready, Fire, Aim! We'd be better off with the arbitrator. Obviously you guys have never taken the time to read the Polar contract; I've read both cover to cover. This is only the first step. What happens next with Scope? Ask the A-Star/ABX guys how the big pay rates work without Scope. Go get the details on my first 2 items. You guys should be pissed off about the real answers.
Here I'll happily agree with you. This would have been MUCH better without an arbitrator. So WHY didn't Boobie get it done? The ONLY persons to blame for that are your own. The ARBITRATOR IS YOUR DOING.
B.K. has picked up the baton and it now is his doing. He's been told his greivances have no merit, so he goes around spreading feedlot dung.
Yes, we understand. Everyone is picking on poor Polar. You are the BASTIONS of integrity. Every mothers son and daughter wants to grow up to be a Polar pilot.
And since no one is giving you what you want, you’re going to show all of us who’s in charge and hold your breath until you turn blue.
OK...
Lets DO talk about this, genius. Polar has been hollering for Separate Section 6 discussions since the merger was announced. Why? Because Polar still contends there is NO MERGER. Separate Section 6 discussions would, in their mind, only confirm it. Despite the fact that the entire airline has been merged and the carrier has been ruled a "single carrier." But not in your brilliant legal minds.
But let's go a step farther; or backward in this case. In 2005, when your MEC DEMANDED to be allowed to re negotiate your CBA prior to the merger, everyone said the same thing. Take what the company offers in $$, use it to strengthed your work rules. Get a deal and then we can go forward, combine the best of both and get a great CBA. Great job you did there. Once again, everyone was out to get poor, misunderstood Polar. The geniuses of the industry who caved in 36 hours into your cooling off. Who once again are being abused.
Alright, instead we go for the best of both. Polar work rules & Atlas payscale. That would have been beneficial to both, no? How long is this contract going to be & then how long to negotiate the next one beyond the ammendable date? For now, the value of the Polar work rules is gone for one less day of extension on your side. Not even the 16 days were kept. Guess what...it's much easier to get pay increases than getting the days back. Horse two gone.
Let's talk about amendable dates. Had your leadership not pissed off the company, Cato would have been gone in late '05...FACT. Thanks to Boobie, you guys breathed life into him. Why? Because no management is going to be seen as letting one of their own go because of a union. Especially one whose leadership is as psychotic as yours. Then there was your little issue of crapping on the only pilot group who walked out for you. Did FedEx? UAL? CAL? ANYONE????...
We could have; and in hindsight, should have, let you vaporize yourselves. You crapped on our people. Your leadership wanted to stop flights that supported Hurricane Katrina...and OUR TROOPS. How much support would anyone in ALPA had given you if that had gotten out?
We could have had a contract in '06...'07...could have stopped the decert DEAD IN IT'S TRACKS. When you whine about the IBT, look in the mirror. YOU are the reason. YOUR leadership coerced Prater into sandbagging the merger, despite the Executive Boards direction. They got tired of Bobbies cowboy boots and black back of "facts" that were feedlot dung. IBT?? You brought that on. Well done.
Call your reps & demand answers & not spin. In fact, call S.R. & D.B. & ask them why we don't have an experienced arbitration attorney like Dan Katz up against Segal. Ask them why we have the arbitrator we have rather than one of the FIRST list the company sent over. They gave them a pass because "they didn't mean to send that list"! Bullsh*t!
Tell us. How many times have YOU called S.R.? (Don't forget, phone's have records that can be checked)
And let's DO talk about Dan "Mr. Preparation" Katz. Who asked to Atlas side IN FRONT OF THE ARBITRATOR for documents that he didn't know existed that SUNK YOUR CASE. And whined when Jeff Freund said "no."
Let's TALK ABOUT his "expert bankruptcy witness." Whose sworn testimony showed that his "expertise" was five years of beer drinking at Auburn (his words) sitting in bankruptcy court and reading the WSJ.
We can talk about his lack of preparation, his P.O.'ing the arbitrator with being caught in lies. Yes, let's talk.
Let's talk about the document that he claimed no knowledge of from 2001 when your MEC was notified by the company that the merged Polar would only be 150 or so pilots and FIVE -400's. Confirmed by YOUR contract administrator, Ev Barber.
And lets talk about how he tried to get a third party to get an Atlas consultant to do work for him, not disclosing who it was for.
Yes, the BRILLIANT Dan Katz. Ask the Airways guys or anyone else he's represented how good he is.
I get it...you guys hate everything Polar. The gap was 16+0 and 17+4. Line holders at Polar could NEVER be extended involuntarily. Hell, look around the industry. Even Evergreen has 16 days, two weeks of vacation takes out the whole month for guarantee, lower 48 trans-con is business class or better & outside the lower 48 business class or better. Not bad, eh?
Nah, we don't hate you. We're just amazed on a daily basis how with such geniuses you have running your show, you haven't taken over the airline industry, hell, the WORLD!
The only thing I can't figure out is this. Why haven't you filed a greivance against Atlas for a scope violation on the Houston Shuttle? Your argument for struck work was that it included cargo from anyone who had EVER shipped a package on Polar.
So using that logic, I'm assuming somewhere along the line, you carried a casket or two. PASSENGERS!!! And now ATLAS is VIOLATING your scope by flying passengers!!!
Ya'll want to hurry this train wreck up. OK, Ready, Fire, Aim! We'd be better off with the arbitrator. Obviously you guys have never taken the time to read the Polar contract; I've read both cover to cover. This is only the first step. What happens next with Scope? Ask the A-Star/ABX guys how the big pay rates work without Scope. Go get the details on my first 2 items. You guys should be pissed off about the real answers.
Here I'll happily agree with you. This would have been MUCH better without an arbitrator. So WHY didn't Boobie get it done? The ONLY persons to blame for that are your own. The ARBITRATOR IS YOUR DOING.
B.K. has picked up the baton and it now is his doing. He's been told his greivances have no merit, so he goes around spreading feedlot dung.
Yes, we understand. Everyone is picking on poor Polar. You are the BASTIONS of integrity. Every mothers son and daughter wants to grow up to be a Polar pilot.
And since no one is giving you what you want, you’re going to show all of us who’s in charge and hold your breath until you turn blue.
OK...
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I would also like to add a note that most of beechjet's points were addressed repeatedly during many of the Polar/Atlas conference calls. Calls that were originally just Polar conference calls until the Atlas side got wind of them. Then they became joint calls. Probably why we don't have many anymore. Too many guys in official positions to call BS if it starts getting too deep and the Polar TEC may have to answer correctly vs what they have been saying behind the scenes to their group.
IslamoradaFlyer and my answers seem to follow the answers by those of the Atlas/Polar TEC joint calls. While the Polar TEC remained quiet for the most part on those calls once they became joint Atlas/Polar calls, none of the Polar TEC countered/corrected the answers reflected in IslamoradaFlyer and my answers here on the conditions of the merger. My guess is due to the fact that the Polar TEC tell their group something completely different and wrong or encourage it behind the scenes where the Polar TEC cannot be held accountable for it by the local. You can tell during those calls when the Polar membership questions come up that they have been told something else entirely on the merger.
IslamoradaFlyer and my answers seem to follow the answers by those of the Atlas/Polar TEC joint calls. While the Polar TEC remained quiet for the most part on those calls once they became joint Atlas/Polar calls, none of the Polar TEC countered/corrected the answers reflected in IslamoradaFlyer and my answers here on the conditions of the merger. My guess is due to the fact that the Polar TEC tell their group something completely different and wrong or encourage it behind the scenes where the Polar TEC cannot be held accountable for it by the local. You can tell during those calls when the Polar membership questions come up that they have been told something else entirely on the merger.
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Ohhh, I got BOLD & COLORS! I must be hitting several nerves at once. Neat. I apologize for not getting back to you sooner, I was out celebrating my windfall.
Let’s just see where to jump in. First off, I never said that we should be in Section 6 to stay separate. That part is over with the single carrier status. The fact remains that we both have “expired” contracts under the RLA. What I said was we both should have entered into Section 6 with the same openers & use the law & leverage it affords us to advance both sides & then combine. Polar is not the reason for the arbitrator. Dave Bourne signed the agreement with the company as the Head of the Teamsters that spelled out binding arbitration.
The fact of the matter is Atlas has NEVER entered into Section 6 to make advances to your very first contract; which your guys agree have no work rules. Polar did & the negotiating stance of the company was “Atlas work rules & Polar payscale” with their arms crossed. We can argue till we’re blue in the face about anything & everything, but in the end Polar was able to keep the contract intact & achieve a small (10%) pay bump. Granted, it’s not up to the Atlas level, but we did save the ENTIRE contract. You guys have never tried to advance your side or fix your work rules in Section 6. Instead, you listened to Cato & the company & blamed Polar.
Cato’s job was to simply move the ball & divert attention so the company would never pay one more nickel to the crewmembers. He did his job. It’s always employees v. company with the bargaining agent (at the time ALPA) representing the one group. Argue over the conflict of Atlas/Polar/ALPA all day, but in the end ALPA had the obligation to fight for & represent both of us separately as individual carriers. You guys should have been in Section 6 with them. Having the agreement of binding arbitration based on 2 expired contracts was the company’s wet dream. They get to decimate the Polar work rules & reward Atlas with only a small increase in pay. This is the train wreck.
Make no mistake, for the last 2 years Polar has had no representation & you guys have been driving. Sure, some of our guys have been “involved”, but our input has never been welcomed. If it was, it was later disregarded because the “adults” knew better. This whole charade is frustrating to both sides & it will continue for at least another year to get through arbitration. So much for the 6 months you guys promised, huh? In the end we will have an arbitrated abortion that will be laid squarely at your feet, NOT POLAR’S.
For the record, I do not hate Atlas crewmembers. I’ve met many that are fantastic people. I’m done with your childish name-calling. At some point there will be a point to take this contract (beyond it’s amendable date) to the end game of the RLA. Can I count on you to fight then or you won’t care because you’ll be retired & not care about what you leave behind?
Let’s just see where to jump in. First off, I never said that we should be in Section 6 to stay separate. That part is over with the single carrier status. The fact remains that we both have “expired” contracts under the RLA. What I said was we both should have entered into Section 6 with the same openers & use the law & leverage it affords us to advance both sides & then combine. Polar is not the reason for the arbitrator. Dave Bourne signed the agreement with the company as the Head of the Teamsters that spelled out binding arbitration.
The fact of the matter is Atlas has NEVER entered into Section 6 to make advances to your very first contract; which your guys agree have no work rules. Polar did & the negotiating stance of the company was “Atlas work rules & Polar payscale” with their arms crossed. We can argue till we’re blue in the face about anything & everything, but in the end Polar was able to keep the contract intact & achieve a small (10%) pay bump. Granted, it’s not up to the Atlas level, but we did save the ENTIRE contract. You guys have never tried to advance your side or fix your work rules in Section 6. Instead, you listened to Cato & the company & blamed Polar.
Cato’s job was to simply move the ball & divert attention so the company would never pay one more nickel to the crewmembers. He did his job. It’s always employees v. company with the bargaining agent (at the time ALPA) representing the one group. Argue over the conflict of Atlas/Polar/ALPA all day, but in the end ALPA had the obligation to fight for & represent both of us separately as individual carriers. You guys should have been in Section 6 with them. Having the agreement of binding arbitration based on 2 expired contracts was the company’s wet dream. They get to decimate the Polar work rules & reward Atlas with only a small increase in pay. This is the train wreck.
Make no mistake, for the last 2 years Polar has had no representation & you guys have been driving. Sure, some of our guys have been “involved”, but our input has never been welcomed. If it was, it was later disregarded because the “adults” knew better. This whole charade is frustrating to both sides & it will continue for at least another year to get through arbitration. So much for the 6 months you guys promised, huh? In the end we will have an arbitrated abortion that will be laid squarely at your feet, NOT POLAR’S.
For the record, I do not hate Atlas crewmembers. I’ve met many that are fantastic people. I’m done with your childish name-calling. At some point there will be a point to take this contract (beyond it’s amendable date) to the end game of the RLA. Can I count on you to fight then or you won’t care because you’ll be retired & not care about what you leave behind?
Last edited by beachjet; 23rd Aug 2010 at 07:56. Reason: paragraph spacing
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Beechjet:
Everyone get's the same worn out message. Polar has done nothing wrong and was always right. Atlas and the industry are all wrong. So there's no sense reminding you how your MEC volunteered to cross our picket lines in '02. How Boobie said in '03 that 250-300 Polar job losses were "acceptable collateral damage" for him to never wear an Atlas uniform. How he demanded that Polar be allowed to negotiate a contract first in '05. And he caved in on you. How he attacked the very people who were the only ones in the industry to support you. And how he used Prater in '07 and '08 to block the JCBA. And how he used over one million dollars of ALPA members hard earned dues money paying Dan Katz to represent Polar on greivance arbitrations that legally should have been handled by ALPA Legal, not Dan Katz. The same ALPA Legal that told Prater they had no merit and exposed ALPA to a DFR from Atlas pilots for the harm being caused. (and Katz blew anyway) That's a million bucks ALPA could sure use now.
So it all moves to the IBT and Boobie starts up the Victrola again at the first meeting in ILM. Armed with his flightbag of revisionist history that no one would take three days to listen to. Then to DC, accusing IBT of nefarious deeds. Their legal department got the docs and reviewed them because the Airline Division recused themselves so Boobie wouldn't be able to scream coverup; he did anyway.
IBT Legal said there was no merit. Yet, your leadership keeps beating the drum and dragging their knuckles.
Tell you what. And I say this with all sincerity. If you, and collectively the Polar pilots REALLY want to get something positive done, tell BK to quit throwing sand in the gearbox. The merger is done. No "special rights" for Polar if any part of the airline ever gets sold. Why? Because the pilots don't own it.
There could have been a much better deal in '07. And '08. Fact is, the JCBA could have been voted upon. Your comment that it was signed away is pure fallacy. Truth is, your leadership said flat out they would reject any JCBA; meaning it would go to arbitration. Had they not been so incompetent, there could have been a strong CBA and we'd likely be renegotiating it now.
So seriously, if you really want to make this work and get something decent; understanding that what was "leaked" could have been used for leverage for something better..until it was leaked..tell BK to stop negotiating in public.
Because at the end of the day, the only careers that he will screw up are yours. And he hasn't got that right.
Everyone get's the same worn out message. Polar has done nothing wrong and was always right. Atlas and the industry are all wrong. So there's no sense reminding you how your MEC volunteered to cross our picket lines in '02. How Boobie said in '03 that 250-300 Polar job losses were "acceptable collateral damage" for him to never wear an Atlas uniform. How he demanded that Polar be allowed to negotiate a contract first in '05. And he caved in on you. How he attacked the very people who were the only ones in the industry to support you. And how he used Prater in '07 and '08 to block the JCBA. And how he used over one million dollars of ALPA members hard earned dues money paying Dan Katz to represent Polar on greivance arbitrations that legally should have been handled by ALPA Legal, not Dan Katz. The same ALPA Legal that told Prater they had no merit and exposed ALPA to a DFR from Atlas pilots for the harm being caused. (and Katz blew anyway) That's a million bucks ALPA could sure use now.
So it all moves to the IBT and Boobie starts up the Victrola again at the first meeting in ILM. Armed with his flightbag of revisionist history that no one would take three days to listen to. Then to DC, accusing IBT of nefarious deeds. Their legal department got the docs and reviewed them because the Airline Division recused themselves so Boobie wouldn't be able to scream coverup; he did anyway.
IBT Legal said there was no merit. Yet, your leadership keeps beating the drum and dragging their knuckles.
Tell you what. And I say this with all sincerity. If you, and collectively the Polar pilots REALLY want to get something positive done, tell BK to quit throwing sand in the gearbox. The merger is done. No "special rights" for Polar if any part of the airline ever gets sold. Why? Because the pilots don't own it.
There could have been a much better deal in '07. And '08. Fact is, the JCBA could have been voted upon. Your comment that it was signed away is pure fallacy. Truth is, your leadership said flat out they would reject any JCBA; meaning it would go to arbitration. Had they not been so incompetent, there could have been a strong CBA and we'd likely be renegotiating it now.
So seriously, if you really want to make this work and get something decent; understanding that what was "leaked" could have been used for leverage for something better..until it was leaked..tell BK to stop negotiating in public.
Because at the end of the day, the only careers that he will screw up are yours. And he hasn't got that right.
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This constant harping like a 5 year old wanting candy on going back to separate section 6's is getting old. Brought on mostly by B.H. regularly at those previously mentioned conference calls when they let him have time on the phone. The negotiation council then has to go over it again which usually breaks down into R.D. and everyone else getting nauseated and saying "that water is under the bridge and has been covered many times with him on calls and meetings."
So that ship has sailed.
But to entertain the thought and the logic if it did happen your way, do you honestly think it would work? In the beginning we had separate negotiations going on Atlas initial and Polar section 6. Polar instead of staying on the same track and timeline as Atlas in negotiations for dual job action leverage, Polar voted for a 18 month delay in negotiations if they got some extra pay from the company. Thus taking our dual job action leverage away. Paving the way for the company to use us against each other by moving A/C back and fourth and furloughing since the company had a year and a half between our countdowns to strike ------- oh Hell, why do I need to repeat it all again. Just read the slide show that was evidence at one hearing or another. The stuff above starts around slide 4 and also shows even more examples. Requires shockwave plug-in your browser.
(Click on each image to cont. No "back" button, you'll just have to reload and start from beginning. Sorry)
ADR Panel Slide show
For all practical purposes, your group cannot be trusted to do the right thing during any kind of attempted coordination. History has shown that. Your leadership has jumped at every opportunity to make a quick gain at Atlas crews expense and have never shown any solidarity for anyone else in action while always demanding it of others. So I see your logic as a repeat of history. We both agree we don't want to be merged to each other, but I don't want Polar to be a tool used against me anymore. Judging from the votes for the IBT, the rest of the Atlas group feels the same way.
That is why the decert happened and why the Polar situation has been dealt with in this manner. To keep you from being used against us any more. So to speak, the Polar leadership has brought this on themselves by their actions and it has bit them and the Polar group in the ass.
So that ship has sailed.
But to entertain the thought and the logic if it did happen your way, do you honestly think it would work? In the beginning we had separate negotiations going on Atlas initial and Polar section 6. Polar instead of staying on the same track and timeline as Atlas in negotiations for dual job action leverage, Polar voted for a 18 month delay in negotiations if they got some extra pay from the company. Thus taking our dual job action leverage away. Paving the way for the company to use us against each other by moving A/C back and fourth and furloughing since the company had a year and a half between our countdowns to strike ------- oh Hell, why do I need to repeat it all again. Just read the slide show that was evidence at one hearing or another. The stuff above starts around slide 4 and also shows even more examples. Requires shockwave plug-in your browser.
(Click on each image to cont. No "back" button, you'll just have to reload and start from beginning. Sorry)
ADR Panel Slide show
For all practical purposes, your group cannot be trusted to do the right thing during any kind of attempted coordination. History has shown that. Your leadership has jumped at every opportunity to make a quick gain at Atlas crews expense and have never shown any solidarity for anyone else in action while always demanding it of others. So I see your logic as a repeat of history. We both agree we don't want to be merged to each other, but I don't want Polar to be a tool used against me anymore. Judging from the votes for the IBT, the rest of the Atlas group feels the same way.
That is why the decert happened and why the Polar situation has been dealt with in this manner. To keep you from being used against us any more. So to speak, the Polar leadership has brought this on themselves by their actions and it has bit them and the Polar group in the ass.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 25th Aug 2010 at 02:52.