Increased flying in EU for US pilots
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Increased flying in EU for US pilots
IPA is meeting with EU reps this week concerning the next two rounds of open skies. IPA wants the new agreements to include increased EU flying for US (UPS) pilots. EU reps said that they were not opposed to the idea but that they would likely get flak from EU pilots.
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And we need increased US flying for EU pilots. We don't need to hear the rubbish about cabotage and such. EU = Single economic area, just as the US. If US carriers are allowed to ply their trade around here, EU carriers should be allowed to have FULL reciprocal rights.
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PPruNe is mainly a European pilots web site. That's why I'm visiting. There are more posts from the UK and Germany and West Samoa than on other sites. Whilst AirlinePilotForum is mainly a US based site. Although all are welcome to exchange ideas. I welcome everybodies comments. But like being in somebody elses house. One should show the utmost of respect especially when in others back yard.
This is why I find Brown Tail Whales comments inflamitory at best. It does nothing to harbor International good will. But simply says were gunning for your jobs.
I would suspect that Brown Tail Whale is a very senior pilot on the 747 Classic in Louisville. Maybe the majority of his career is over, and it's been a good, no great ride. I certainly feel that we got the last good job in the industry. But for me too, one day it'll all be over.
Wether or not UPS takes over the routes from Star Air, and MNG, and Blue Cargo or that new one Solinair remains to be seen. It's not in my hands and really won't affect me, like I doubt it'll affect Brown Tail Whale one iota either.
I have no interest in flying a Boeing 767 from Louisville to Philadelphia to Stanstead to Cologne to Madrid, to Cologne to Malmo, to Helsinki, to Malmo, to Cologne, to Barcelona, to Valencia, to Barcelona, to Cologne for a weekend layover, to Dubai, to Bombay, to Dubai, to Cologne, to Newark, to Louisville. I very much doubt anybody with high seniority would either. When we can sit in Louisville.
I've got absolutly nothing against any subcontractor personally. I enjoy talking to pilots from varied backgrounds. We are all just trying to stay employed during these very dificult times. It's not the pilots who make business decissions. It's companies and governments. Remember the U.S Air Force pilot who got in serious trouble for saying that he had a lot more in common with a North Vietnamese Mig-21 pilot, that his own government. That's the way I feel. I have more in common with pilots from other nations than I have towards my government or employer or fellow citizens. Although my allegance has to go to my own seniority list first.
This is why I find Brown Tail Whales comments inflamitory at best. It does nothing to harbor International good will. But simply says were gunning for your jobs.
I would suspect that Brown Tail Whale is a very senior pilot on the 747 Classic in Louisville. Maybe the majority of his career is over, and it's been a good, no great ride. I certainly feel that we got the last good job in the industry. But for me too, one day it'll all be over.
Wether or not UPS takes over the routes from Star Air, and MNG, and Blue Cargo or that new one Solinair remains to be seen. It's not in my hands and really won't affect me, like I doubt it'll affect Brown Tail Whale one iota either.
I have no interest in flying a Boeing 767 from Louisville to Philadelphia to Stanstead to Cologne to Madrid, to Cologne to Malmo, to Helsinki, to Malmo, to Cologne, to Barcelona, to Valencia, to Barcelona, to Cologne for a weekend layover, to Dubai, to Bombay, to Dubai, to Cologne, to Newark, to Louisville. I very much doubt anybody with high seniority would either. When we can sit in Louisville.
I've got absolutly nothing against any subcontractor personally. I enjoy talking to pilots from varied backgrounds. We are all just trying to stay employed during these very dificult times. It's not the pilots who make business decissions. It's companies and governments. Remember the U.S Air Force pilot who got in serious trouble for saying that he had a lot more in common with a North Vietnamese Mig-21 pilot, that his own government. That's the way I feel. I have more in common with pilots from other nations than I have towards my government or employer or fellow citizens. Although my allegance has to go to my own seniority list first.
Last edited by 5XSoup; 11th Dec 2008 at 17:08.
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Isn't PPRUNE owned by a company in Scottsdale Arizona? The last time I checked Arizona was in the USA.
So your "house" is in someone else's country. Too funny.
But like being in somebody elses house. One should show the unmost of respect always, but especially when in others back yard.
Last edited by Beaver_Driver; 11th Dec 2008 at 17:07.
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I think what everyone needs to remember first, above all, is that no matter what the heartless and witless bureaucrats decide, the pilots will simply do their job as directed.
It's not personal.
It's not a deliberate sneak attack on other's jobs. We're not foxes (Euro or American) stealing eggs from the nest.
The pilots have virtually no sway in the these matters, so how about if everyone just ditches their regional pride and go write a letter to their appropriate bureaucrat rather than throwing mud on colleagues from across an ocean.
It's not personal.
It's not a deliberate sneak attack on other's jobs. We're not foxes (Euro or American) stealing eggs from the nest.
The pilots have virtually no sway in the these matters, so how about if everyone just ditches their regional pride and go write a letter to their appropriate bureaucrat rather than throwing mud on colleagues from across an ocean.
BrowntailWhale:
That is perhaps understandable (from a cargo perspective), but the US appears to have so much more to lose, and it could open up a nasty "Pandora's Box" which could slowly doom the younger pilots over here. One's unleashed, those demons could never be pushed back into the box.
The economic situation is bad enough.
At my age many of us could say "who cares about them?", but along with the younger generation (except for the lower-time FOs), many of whom realize that they will spend careers in RJs (many RJs already Are their B-737, F-100, DC-9, while being paid about 75% less after just a few years...), it might also sell many more future pilots "down the river", who are still in high school.
That is perhaps understandable (from a cargo perspective), but the US appears to have so much more to lose, and it could open up a nasty "Pandora's Box" which could slowly doom the younger pilots over here. One's unleashed, those demons could never be pushed back into the box.
The economic situation is bad enough.
At my age many of us could say "who cares about them?", but along with the younger generation (except for the lower-time FOs), many of whom realize that they will spend careers in RJs (many RJs already Are their B-737, F-100, DC-9, while being paid about 75% less after just a few years...), it might also sell many more future pilots "down the river", who are still in high school.
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Indeed we will all just do as we are told. And we cannot, as pointed out have much sway in the decision making process. BUT, I would like to see the reaction from US pilots if EU pilots were allowed to operate without restriction in their economic area (or perhaps I wouldn't....I can picture the picket lines and protest in front of the White House/Senate/wherever right now).
EU pilots are less likely to react in that way, despite the fact that it will inevitably have a similar effect on pilots jobs here as it would if we were allowed to operate in the US.
EU pilots are less likely to react in that way, despite the fact that it will inevitably have a similar effect on pilots jobs here as it would if we were allowed to operate in the US.
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"economic area" is not the same as being a sovereign nation. And the EU is not a nation.
It may be someday, and I think the world will be a better place when it happens. But it has not happened yet. And until it does, flying from Italy to France will not be the same as flying from Florida to California.
In the meantime there is no historic basis to pick and chose between the obligations and rights that come from nationhood; it is a package deal.
It may be someday, and I think the world will be a better place when it happens. But it has not happened yet. And until it does, flying from Italy to France will not be the same as flying from Florida to California.
In the meantime there is no historic basis to pick and chose between the obligations and rights that come from nationhood; it is a package deal.
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The brotherhood of pilots. What can be more noble and awesome? It brings tears in my eyes when I see the profound love and respect for our profession.
It reminds me a last incident when I was telling to a fellow pilot about a possible job I was about to get. Later to find out, my good fellow brother in profession used the infos to underbid pay me. Such a good brother. And that is not the only case.
It reminds me a last incident when I was telling to a fellow pilot about a possible job I was about to get. Later to find out, my good fellow brother in profession used the infos to underbid pay me. Such a good brother. And that is not the only case.
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So what are the Brotherhood supposed to do about your wish to come to the US and take our flying whilst not allowing us to fly point to point in Germany or point to point in the UK. We already allow you to fly point to point in our "economic area" It's called North America and you can fly from Mexico City to Miami, Toronto to Chicago, or even Vancouver to Atlanta. No different than us flying between two countries in the EU.
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I have been reading all the msg,s and must come to the conclusion that the Americans still dont get the message, nor do I think they ever will.
We in the EU are fed up being told by the US, where and how we may do our job while at the same time invading the EU with N reg. a/c which only FAA pilots are allowed to fly.
If the tide is turning and the Eu is fighting back, I say good on them, it,s time they knew what it feels like.
We in the EU are fed up being told by the US, where and how we may do our job while at the same time invading the EU with N reg. a/c which only FAA pilots are allowed to fly.
If the tide is turning and the Eu is fighting back, I say good on them, it,s time they knew what it feels like.
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Once again and just because you do not understand - THE EU IS NOT A COUNTRY. It is a conglomeration of countries all with their own leaders, rules, regulations, ability to levy tariffs for overflights, and most importantly their own ability to negotiate treaties. You need a serious lesson in geography and civics.
Get rid of the royal family. Get rid of the Pound and start using the Euro only, limit the power of Parliament, ratify the various treaties of the EU and subjugate your borders (and indeed your entire way of life) to the rule of the EU, then you will be the same as the US and can compare flying between countries in the EU with flying between states in the US. Until then you are comparing apples to oranges.
Get rid of the royal family. Get rid of the Pound and start using the Euro only, limit the power of Parliament, ratify the various treaties of the EU and subjugate your borders (and indeed your entire way of life) to the rule of the EU, then you will be the same as the US and can compare flying between countries in the EU with flying between states in the US. Until then you are comparing apples to oranges.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 12th Dec 2008 at 21:05.
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WhaleFR8
I don't want to dispute your arguments (many of them can be used against the States as well, if you think about it), but there is one thing very clear in your message: you telling all of this just because you assume that EU will not become a country, at least not in you life.
Tell me honestly, what is the difference for you personally (as FAA pilot) if EU is a joint venture between 27 states or it is a single country? I think there is no difference. The truth is very simple: YOU DON'T WANT EU PILOTS IN THE STATES DOESN'T MATTER WHAT. If EU will become a single country I'm sure you will find some new arguments why EU airplanes should not fly in the States.
I don't want to dispute your arguments (many of them can be used against the States as well, if you think about it), but there is one thing very clear in your message: you telling all of this just because you assume that EU will not become a country, at least not in you life.
Tell me honestly, what is the difference for you personally (as FAA pilot) if EU is a joint venture between 27 states or it is a single country? I think there is no difference. The truth is very simple: YOU DON'T WANT EU PILOTS IN THE STATES DOESN'T MATTER WHAT. If EU will become a single country I'm sure you will find some new arguments why EU airplanes should not fly in the States.
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Not true. I could care less as long as there is reciprocity - as long as we can come over with Southwest and fly point to point in individual European countries.
The EU members assume that just because they have formed a marketing conglomeration of countries that all of the sudden they have some special rights to fly point to point in what they see as a very lucrative market. Yet when you mention the fact that the EU is similar to the North American coalition (Mexico, Canada, and the US; who are all sovereign countries) they are not interested. They only want access to the US market. Not the North American market which they can already access.
You want your cake and be able to eat it too. You want to be separate governing bodies with separate histories, cultures, and identities, yet you think you should have the same privileges (or same restrictions on others flying in your airspace) as a real country just because you have formed a loose marketing coalition.
This is NOT what the United States is. We are a sovereign country - all states are governed by one federal government. That government made treaties concerning the freedoms of the air, many many years ago. We have one currency, one system of laws, one system of tariffs and one identity. The individual states cannot restrict cross border trade, levy tariffs, or make treaties with other sovereign nations. There is a huge difference. US airlines and pilots cannot currently fly point to point in Germany or France or the UK. German, or French, or English airlines and pilots are denied the same thing in the US - they cannot fly point to point in the US.
It is simple. The US is a sovereign country. The EU is not (yet). I am sure it will be someday - but how are you going to convince the Brits to give up the royals or the Pound. It's gonna take a while.
The EU members assume that just because they have formed a marketing conglomeration of countries that all of the sudden they have some special rights to fly point to point in what they see as a very lucrative market. Yet when you mention the fact that the EU is similar to the North American coalition (Mexico, Canada, and the US; who are all sovereign countries) they are not interested. They only want access to the US market. Not the North American market which they can already access.
You want your cake and be able to eat it too. You want to be separate governing bodies with separate histories, cultures, and identities, yet you think you should have the same privileges (or same restrictions on others flying in your airspace) as a real country just because you have formed a loose marketing coalition.
This is NOT what the United States is. We are a sovereign country - all states are governed by one federal government. That government made treaties concerning the freedoms of the air, many many years ago. We have one currency, one system of laws, one system of tariffs and one identity. The individual states cannot restrict cross border trade, levy tariffs, or make treaties with other sovereign nations. There is a huge difference. US airlines and pilots cannot currently fly point to point in Germany or France or the UK. German, or French, or English airlines and pilots are denied the same thing in the US - they cannot fly point to point in the US.
It is simple. The US is a sovereign country. The EU is not (yet). I am sure it will be someday - but how are you going to convince the Brits to give up the royals or the Pound. It's gonna take a while.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 12th Dec 2008 at 21:35.
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We in the EU are fed up being told by the US, where and how we may do our job while at the same time invading the EU with N reg. a/c which only FAA pilots are allowed to fly.
Regarding being fed up by US, it would have been better if you said that after WWII or during Cold War. How short people memories could be? It's so easy to bite and spit the feeding hand when there is no need for it anymore.
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countbat
Tell us a little bit more about it...
What a typical American arrogance and short memory.
But anyway tell us why you still want to fly between those 27 misarable 3rd world countries, why you don't just stick to your perfect world around Louisville?
EU is 27 countries in which many shouldn't be even considered yet part of civilized world
What a typical American arrogance and short memory.
But anyway tell us why you still want to fly between those 27 misarable 3rd world countries, why you don't just stick to your perfect world around Louisville?