Polar/Atlas The Saga Continues
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The letters posted by nitty (post#200) were the same as those previously distributed to all of Polar's crewmembers by it's MEC.
Cato's offer of intent appears to only benefit the first 9 out of all of Polar's furloughed FE's, and logically, it had become an invitation to negotiate an expansion - thus benefiting all of the furloughed. . . . . Although moot, would the Atlas MEC have agreed to even this (Cato's original offer)? No one will ever know, as Cato's offer appears designed to have been simply a nose thumbing tease by mngmt (and / or perhaps later - by the Atlas MEC). - - With regards to typical AAWW / labor operations, anybody could see where this was going to go.
Cato's offer of intent appears to only benefit the first 9 out of all of Polar's furloughed FE's, and logically, it had become an invitation to negotiate an expansion - thus benefiting all of the furloughed. . . . . Although moot, would the Atlas MEC have agreed to even this (Cato's original offer)? No one will ever know, as Cato's offer appears designed to have been simply a nose thumbing tease by mngmt (and / or perhaps later - by the Atlas MEC). - - With regards to typical AAWW / labor operations, anybody could see where this was going to go.
Last edited by L-38; 19th Jul 2008 at 18:12.
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I remember once upon a time the same happening (maybe twice?) in reverse of current events except the big obstacle was the Polar MEC/Neg Com. Back when Atlas A/C and flying were being moved over to Polar for management to make a negotiation point to the Atlas crew force.
Essentially back then, the Polar MEC/Neg Com would be happy to have us over at the bottom of the Polar list at best forever-and-always without accrued longevity pay and the same currently offered caveats such as merged seniority when the merger was completed similar to both the current Polar counter offer and management offer just discussed. So I guess you would be right that the Atlas MEC and crews would probably remember that past experience and not have much interest in helping out again when it was to be presented to the Atlas MEC for approval.
So pretty much a dead offer to begin with as you said. Worsened by the Polar counter offer. I think the biggest part was the Polar counter offer. It appears to be another attempt to get another piece of the Harris seniority award Polar didn't already get in the arbitration.
Here is the Atlas VARS in text with it's documents mentioned covering the general thoughts on it as sent to the crews.
Atlas 07-18-2008
Essentially back then, the Polar MEC/Neg Com would be happy to have us over at the bottom of the Polar list at best forever-and-always without accrued longevity pay and the same currently offered caveats such as merged seniority when the merger was completed similar to both the current Polar counter offer and management offer just discussed. So I guess you would be right that the Atlas MEC and crews would probably remember that past experience and not have much interest in helping out again when it was to be presented to the Atlas MEC for approval.
So pretty much a dead offer to begin with as you said. Worsened by the Polar counter offer. I think the biggest part was the Polar counter offer. It appears to be another attempt to get another piece of the Harris seniority award Polar didn't already get in the arbitration.
Here is the Atlas VARS in text with it's documents mentioned covering the general thoughts on it as sent to the crews.
Atlas 07-18-2008
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 20th Jul 2008 at 02:18.
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It is interesting to see, now that the whole document is public, how out of context Cato's words were taken by some on this board. Here is the full paragraph:
"As you can see, our proposal ensures no Polar Crewmember will be involuntarily furloughed or downgraded as a result of Polar’s discontinuing its Classic flying in August rather than October. Moreover, rather than face a furlough with no chance of recall for at least twelve months (the estimated time before the merged CBA and seniority lists are implemented), if ever, our Polar Flight Engineers will be able to continue their employment uninterrupted, and at a pay scale higher than they enjoy today. And those Flight Engineers who do not elect to take a position at Atlas will not be disadvantaged, indeed they will be advantaged, as they will receive pay continuance for now work through October, the time at which Polar will park N516MC in any case, if not before."
For those that don't remember, the boldfaced sentence above was included in a post by L-38 where he intended to indicate that Cato thought the merger might not happen. However, if you read the thing in context (removing the comment in parenthesis) you will see that the if ever comment is talking about the Flight Engineers chance of recall ".....for at least twelve months, if ever...." Granted the sentence structure is pretty poor, but the meaning is clear. Just wanted to post this to show how out of context certain things are, that have been broadcast by some of the Polar leadership.
"As you can see, our proposal ensures no Polar Crewmember will be involuntarily furloughed or downgraded as a result of Polar’s discontinuing its Classic flying in August rather than October. Moreover, rather than face a furlough with no chance of recall for at least twelve months (the estimated time before the merged CBA and seniority lists are implemented), if ever, our Polar Flight Engineers will be able to continue their employment uninterrupted, and at a pay scale higher than they enjoy today. And those Flight Engineers who do not elect to take a position at Atlas will not be disadvantaged, indeed they will be advantaged, as they will receive pay continuance for now work through October, the time at which Polar will park N516MC in any case, if not before."
For those that don't remember, the boldfaced sentence above was included in a post by L-38 where he intended to indicate that Cato thought the merger might not happen. However, if you read the thing in context (removing the comment in parenthesis) you will see that the if ever comment is talking about the Flight Engineers chance of recall ".....for at least twelve months, if ever...." Granted the sentence structure is pretty poor, but the meaning is clear. Just wanted to post this to show how out of context certain things are, that have been broadcast by some of the Polar leadership.
Last edited by Beaver_Driver; 20th Jul 2008 at 16:52.
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Mr Cato is the master of the contract double entendre! Anyone familiar with the "business or better" travel clause will know exactly what I mean. Anyhoo there is no need to mislead or confuse ourselves or eachother with cynically edited quotes!
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Yo Beaver (post #204) . . I suppose that you can interpret Cato's "if ever" that way. . I however, had interpreted it another way.
Per nitty -
Perhaps the only possible future resolve to such "bad air" would be to create two fresh new MEC's, but then even that may be moot now.
(I confess that at that time - R Fell was a little too hard line for my tastes, as I personally did not really like the man. Fell's MEC was elected prior to Polar being acquisitioned).
Per nitty -
So I guess you would be right . . the Atlas MEC . . would probably remember . . . and not have much interest in helping . .
Perhaps the only possible future resolve to such "bad air" would be to create two fresh new MEC's, but then even that may be moot now.
(I confess that at that time - R Fell was a little too hard line for my tastes, as I personally did not really like the man. Fell's MEC was elected prior to Polar being acquisitioned).
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I would expect a single IBT carrier of us both now more likely. I don't think recalling and electing two new MEC's will be much of a starter now. ALPA ignoring the movement just goes to show how much they care about Atlas and Polar crews.
The single carrier responses to/from NMB are listed on the Atlas for teamsters site under it's documents section. I imagine a decision will happen soon by the NMB.
Maybe load shedding the leadership on both sides will move us forward. If moving forward is not the interest of some of the Polar membership, I guess they will have to be dragged kicking and screaming judging from the number of cards submitted by both.
The single carrier responses to/from NMB are listed on the Atlas for teamsters site under it's documents section. I imagine a decision will happen soon by the NMB.
Maybe load shedding the leadership on both sides will move us forward. If moving forward is not the interest of some of the Polar membership, I guess they will have to be dragged kicking and screaming judging from the number of cards submitted by both.
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Yo Beaver (post #204) . . I suppose that you can interpret Cato's "if ever" that way. . I however, had interpreted it another way.
Understandable. That always seems to happen when partial quotes are cut and pasted out of context. Perhaps the letter was read in a hurry and the meaning taken one particular way - then posted with the meaning you interpreted made clearer by the way you partially quoted it.
As others have said in the last few posts, Cato is famous for "weasel words" in his LOAs and contractual language. If the truth be told, his grammar in that post is not up to his usual par. I think that was probably typed by his secretary and not edited too well by him before it went out. As I said the sentence structure is terrible; and one has to break it down into grammatical parts of a sentence to understand where the "if ever" qualifier fits. I can see how it wasn't done purposely and my thanks to you for admitting that.
bd
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I think the silence is the acceptance of the Teamsters coming. Noticed that Capt. Prater sent out a letter to the Atlas and Polar crews finally on the decertification. Teamsters side came out with some stuff on it also at Atlas for Teamsters.
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Probably more, "In search of equal representation that the smaller union sister receives."
A union is only as good as it's members. We have pretty good quality of those on both sides. It's when the National headquarters starts picking favorites among it's councils to support financially and otherwise that we get what we have now.
A union is only as good as it's members. We have pretty good quality of those on both sides. It's when the National headquarters starts picking favorites among it's councils to support financially and otherwise that we get what we have now.
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There's rumblings that the money train is about to stop.
I guess the Polar MEC is working up another grievance, which will naturally end up in arbitration. There is some noise coming from national that they've had it. If Polar wants to go to arbitration anymore, they can pay for it themselves, as in assessments. We'll see what kind of hero's BobbRobbin are when the members have to start paying for their antics.
Also, low level rumblings that the Polar MEC have been notified of the results of the latest arbitration. No written findings yet. Only word is, no transfer of aircraft. No indication, pro or con, of monetary awards in the rumblings.
I guess the Polar MEC is working up another grievance, which will naturally end up in arbitration. There is some noise coming from national that they've had it. If Polar wants to go to arbitration anymore, they can pay for it themselves, as in assessments. We'll see what kind of hero's BobbRobbin are when the members have to start paying for their antics.
Also, low level rumblings that the Polar MEC have been notified of the results of the latest arbitration. No written findings yet. Only word is, no transfer of aircraft. No indication, pro or con, of monetary awards in the rumblings.
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As they are in concert with that of the nation's trucking company's, at least the Teamsters are focused when it comes to ground freight movement. . . . when strike time comes, nothing domestic moves, period.
Yes, the Block (FE) arbitration was due out 30 days after June 30. Don't know how you do it Whale, but as in the past, you've proven to sniff out the first of arbitration result rumblings.
Yes, the Block (FE) arbitration was due out 30 days after June 30. Don't know how you do it Whale, but as in the past, you've proven to sniff out the first of arbitration result rumblings.
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I think it is more appropriately explained by the fact that the Atlas side has a regular and substantial presence and participation of many of our council committee chairmen and volunteers at ALPA Herndon despite the lack of National support for us. Not just the MEC chairman and Negotiation Chairman as with the PAC Council. We are not a one or two man show at ALPA. So we get a lot of info probably before the PAC council chairman get's it. Probably because he would have to put his beer down and come in off the deck of his boat to answer the phone.
Second. Since both the Holden and Bloch arbitrations were going to affect both groups, we are in the award delivery chain also.
Second. Since both the Holden and Bloch arbitrations were going to affect both groups, we are in the award delivery chain also.