ALPA finally pushes Atlas-Polar Merger
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Fr8Dog - your screen name speaks volumes.
Well I too think you and those of your ilk are out of your F>>>> minds. I am sick of the lies and propaganda that has been broadcast all over the net through third parties and we all know who the players are, no point in naming them. Apparently the lack of balls and stupidity of the Atlas group has no limits. You are willing to work for years, perhaps decades, in a haze of jet lag, unable to plan a life, unable to count on days off, held hostage in airplane cockpits and isolated hotels, eating bad catering, breathing toxic air for many hours per month?? Is that what you want? Guess so. What's the F>>>>>>ing point ? Glory? the "thrill" of flying a 747 ??? Money?? HuH??? If this group were not so naive and had a set of balls this situation would not exist. Now that the process of decertifying ALPA is in play, we will soon be in a much weaker position, exactly what Cato and the boys want, yet you think its more advantageous. Right.
If anyone would bother to read and educate themselves, on what is really going on, and not rely on the company sponsored propaganda network, perhaps the bigger picture would be visible. Maybe. But group think, fueled by the usual disinformation, is in full flower, and it must smell really good-roses I am sure.
Management does not HAVE to behave like this, its a choice, its not about money but power, period. They are winning. The Atlas group is in the process of committing professional suicide, setting a new low for the industry that will accelerate the race to the bottom-no doubt that other management teams will follow suit. There are no good outcomes for labor.
If the pilots are separated from the Polar certificate, its history within days maybe sooner. Then what FR8-puppy ??? Then you really think we are in a better negotiating position? The Polar group will be replaced with another leasing company, staffed with a bunch of up and up and coming aviators, ex-commuter types, that will work for 40% percent of what we make and be willing to work 30 days a month to "get their the career going" or some equally idiotic self delusional reason. And thats if this cluster . . . . is even around. There is something big and ugly in the works that management is very keen to implement. We have been sold out. The Polar guys may be tacked onto the bottom of the list and furloughed but at least they stood up for a sustainable life style, unlike our group. I am sure I am not the only one that is appalled at our corrupt union leadership.
Well I too think you and those of your ilk are out of your F>>>> minds. I am sick of the lies and propaganda that has been broadcast all over the net through third parties and we all know who the players are, no point in naming them. Apparently the lack of balls and stupidity of the Atlas group has no limits. You are willing to work for years, perhaps decades, in a haze of jet lag, unable to plan a life, unable to count on days off, held hostage in airplane cockpits and isolated hotels, eating bad catering, breathing toxic air for many hours per month?? Is that what you want? Guess so. What's the F>>>>>>ing point ? Glory? the "thrill" of flying a 747 ??? Money?? HuH??? If this group were not so naive and had a set of balls this situation would not exist. Now that the process of decertifying ALPA is in play, we will soon be in a much weaker position, exactly what Cato and the boys want, yet you think its more advantageous. Right.
If anyone would bother to read and educate themselves, on what is really going on, and not rely on the company sponsored propaganda network, perhaps the bigger picture would be visible. Maybe. But group think, fueled by the usual disinformation, is in full flower, and it must smell really good-roses I am sure.
Management does not HAVE to behave like this, its a choice, its not about money but power, period. They are winning. The Atlas group is in the process of committing professional suicide, setting a new low for the industry that will accelerate the race to the bottom-no doubt that other management teams will follow suit. There are no good outcomes for labor.
If the pilots are separated from the Polar certificate, its history within days maybe sooner. Then what FR8-puppy ??? Then you really think we are in a better negotiating position? The Polar group will be replaced with another leasing company, staffed with a bunch of up and up and coming aviators, ex-commuter types, that will work for 40% percent of what we make and be willing to work 30 days a month to "get their the career going" or some equally idiotic self delusional reason. And thats if this cluster . . . . is even around. There is something big and ugly in the works that management is very keen to implement. We have been sold out. The Polar guys may be tacked onto the bottom of the list and furloughed but at least they stood up for a sustainable life style, unlike our group. I am sure I am not the only one that is appalled at our corrupt union leadership.
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Originally Posted by whaledriver101
Fr8dog,, layinlow is right. You CAN have the QOL you desire but you WILL have to take a stand. One of the things that is a concern among the Polar pilots is the "lack of spine" among the Atlas crewmembers.
We had plenty of spine to go on a sympathy strike for Polar despite their previous actions to gain at Atlas crews expense until the Federal Court ordered us back to work. We did it when no one else would. Then we get blamed for all of their lack of planning.
i.e.: https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/Des...cumentID=41015
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Ahhh.... How easy would it be to take comfort in the general panic and fury found in the Polar posts. The look of fear in their eyes, as they are going down, and they know it. This is akin to WAR, and the tide is finally turning our way. But, I'm not that kind of guy.
Soon, we will all be unified under the Teamster banner, for-better-or-for-worse. Then, we can begin a new chapter in our lives, as a whole.
Soon, we will all be unified under the Teamster banner, for-better-or-for-worse. Then, we can begin a new chapter in our lives, as a whole.
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OK stop it!!!!! This has been over and over and over. The question was going back to the "old days". How far do you want to go back? Go back too far and your right where you are now, crappy pay, crappy hours, crappy management who promote time whoring. How about a little QOL here. Fr8, you say you cannot go back. Well, let me tell you something there mister, there are a lot of carriers that are not even close to the level you are at Atlas. If you want to look at the CBA at Fed Ex, or UPS, I can most ceratinly accomdate you. The difference is that, one they work for a decent company, not the the one you work for. A third year FO makes more than most of your Captains, with more days off, written in stone scheduling, and a ton of other benefits. So you don't have to go back, just grow a set and quit blaming someone else for your troubles.
I sat at the Symphonia with a many of your bretheren and my good friends and toasted many a caprainia and learned of the regime you work under, pre and post Chaudry, and you know what, they hated both, and we are talking 8 years ago!!
I sat at the Symphonia with a many of your bretheren and my good friends and toasted many a caprainia and learned of the regime you work under, pre and post Chaudry, and you know what, they hated both, and we are talking 8 years ago!!
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Fr8dog
I hate to say it FR8DOG but I agree with the Polar guys. I think their take on your last post is correct. After the CBA was signed the word was "it's OK for a first contract".
Well, now we are looking at a second contract and OK is not good enough. Many of the Atlas crewmembers are working 23 or 24 days a month, days off are moved at the whim of scheduleing, Stansted continues to operate as a union busting operation, the list goes on and on.
Atlas Air stock is tradeing north of $60.00 a share. Management tells investors on their conference call that they hold down costs by having the crewforce work 25% overtime.
Come on now FR8DOG. Lets not just roll over.
Well, now we are looking at a second contract and OK is not good enough. Many of the Atlas crewmembers are working 23 or 24 days a month, days off are moved at the whim of scheduleing, Stansted continues to operate as a union busting operation, the list goes on and on.
Atlas Air stock is tradeing north of $60.00 a share. Management tells investors on their conference call that they hold down costs by having the crewforce work 25% overtime.
Come on now FR8DOG. Lets not just roll over.
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Propaganda
From what I and a number of third party witnesses remember of history, every time Atlas stood up for themselves they were quickly betrayed by their sister council on a number of levels. Such as when Polar requested relief from the agreed upon struck work rules to further gain more Atlas flying/aircraft.
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joetommy: Reality Check.
Any Atlas pilot working “23 or 24 days a month” is doing so voluntarily. And I don’t come across any.
Days off can only be moved if the majority of your award was reserve, and then only 4. This is common contract language.
Stanstead as a base is shrinking, AABO is shrinking faster.
“overtime” is time over guarantee. Like a Delta pilot working 80 hours with a guarantee of 65.
You Polar guys have worked yourselves into a frenzy over a bunch of exaggerated half truths—at best.
For the record, this middle-of-the-pack Atlas pilot will be home for 15 days in May.
And rob rilly; go ahead and send me more pointless, insulting PMs if it makes you feel better.
Any Atlas pilot working “23 or 24 days a month” is doing so voluntarily. And I don’t come across any.
Days off can only be moved if the majority of your award was reserve, and then only 4. This is common contract language.
Stanstead as a base is shrinking, AABO is shrinking faster.
“overtime” is time over guarantee. Like a Delta pilot working 80 hours with a guarantee of 65.
You Polar guys have worked yourselves into a frenzy over a bunch of exaggerated half truths—at best.
For the record, this middle-of-the-pack Atlas pilot will be home for 15 days in May.
And rob rilly; go ahead and send me more pointless, insulting PMs if it makes you feel better.
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742, so how many names do you use here..? Never sent a pm to you as 742 !!! You blew your cover ..................(FR8Dog) You need to be more careful !
Cowards = SC*B which ATLAS Crews Are !!!
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Originally Posted by rob rilly
AH, more Nitwit propaganda ! All you know is what your MEC said, nothing in writing to back any of that up ! Atlas crews eat anything they are fed, and it's time to start spitting it out. DB, JC, TH,and KM have really fed Atlas crews S**T, and kept you in the dark.
So I would suggest looking at what your told from your leadership with apprehension until you get outside confirmation. Considering how the Polar group tends to be treated like mushrooms as far as information (kept in the dark and fed what ever S**T your leadership wants). I can understand why you think the way you do.
On the topic of the thread.
I just heard that the ALPA National promised delivery of the Atlas-Polar seniority list is being stalled by Polar now. That stalls the merger process--yet again. Delivery of the list starts the merger clock. Funny how Polar won that seniority list arbitration and they now don't like it.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 21st May 2008 at 16:29.
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No Proof
Like I said, and thanks for backing me up. NO PROOF, just your lies about it......
See, you heard, but provide nothing in hard copy. You at Atlas keep proving my point, that you have no written PROOF ! Heard = Rumors
By Nitty Gritty :I just heard that the ALPA National promised delivery of the Atlas-Polar seniority list is being stalled by Polar now. That stalls the merger process--yet again. Delivery of the list starts the merger clock. Funny how Polar won that seniority list arbitration and they now don't like it.
Last edited by rob rilly; 21st May 2008 at 17:32.
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Oh just cut the c#*p and get on with what thsi all started out as. Personally, as a furloughed Poloroid, I am finding some of these posts getting tiring. What Fell did, or did not do or in this case tried to do, has no bearing on Atlas signing a flawed CBA. Fell darn near lost his position and the rank and file was livid with his proposal, that did not go anywhere by the way. Admit it, you blinked, and it is water under the bridge now. Even the question of who scabbed, and who did not scab is mute. The problem we have, and will continue to have, is AAWH trying to circumvent the Polar CBA. That is the only subject now. Obviously the Polar MEC and the rank and file members have read the plans and have subsequently rejected Cato's ploy. How it affects the Atlas union is of no interest to me at this point. I do not want to see anyone lose their job and I do want to see the Quality of Life issue deteriorate for either unon. If I were an Atlas crew member I would hope that the Polar MEC win everyone of the grievances so we can get onto the process of merging the list and get down to serious and extremely tough negotiations on a new and much better CBA. And as for Atlas going the Teamsters route, I think you are making a fatal mistake and will rue the day that you did. I have a little birdie in the back of my head that says Bourne is pretty self serving in this and is getting a lot more out of the change than the Atlas membership. I could be wrong and if so will apologize. I ask you this, if the Teamsters are not all they're cracked up to be who is hurt the most, Bourne or the Atlas council? That is your decision not mine, so which ever way you go I hope it works out.
But getting back, a union, any union wants one overriding thing. That whatever contract is finally signed the company adheres to what they agreed to. Obviously AAWH is not following the Polar CBA. That is the bottom line and I am really disappointed that another union cannot see the merits of Polar's position. They may not like it, but forcing a company to stick to what they agreed to is paramount in my book. If the company had followed the scope clause this would have been all over by now, we would have been merged, and a new contract in place. But no, we have to fight with each other while Cato laughs..
But getting back, a union, any union wants one overriding thing. That whatever contract is finally signed the company adheres to what they agreed to. Obviously AAWH is not following the Polar CBA. That is the bottom line and I am really disappointed that another union cannot see the merits of Polar's position. They may not like it, but forcing a company to stick to what they agreed to is paramount in my book. If the company had followed the scope clause this would have been all over by now, we would have been merged, and a new contract in place. But no, we have to fight with each other while Cato laughs..
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One would have to ask "why wouldn't one blink" when another airline is waiting to grab your flying and then claim it under their scope clause at a later date. Pretty good plan by your group and describes what kind of trade unionists your are. At least Bob F. asked for permission to sc*b from council 072 during the last 20 minutes before strike release, letting us know his plans. In the end, Bob Fell got burned. Eventually he got fired for stealing from the company or should I say abusing sick leave. Kind of a shame it couldn't have been done when he was caught stealing from ALPA, but I believe Mr. Henderson covered him on that one. You know, when he was using his ALPA paid for cell phone number at $5K per month as his business contact for his charter business in the Homer AK Yellow Pages. One would hope that the Polar membership is not like this, but hey you all elected both of them.
Yes Cato laughs at us. He has found that he only has to dangle the right carrot in front of one group to generate their greed to affect both councils.
You suggest that Atlas crewmembers should hope Polar wins all of it's grievances. You forget to mention that it would be at the Atlas crewmembers expense of jobs/aircraft in your filed remedies let alone Polars negotiation positioning. Atlas crewmembers having had over 200 jobs given up to Polar in the past during our negotiations for management to make a point to Atlas crews doesn't seem to mean much to you. Then claim that flying forever and always under your scope.
Merging would stop this whipsawing combining the contracts. Many on one side just want it all and are doing just about everything they can to get it.
Moving to Teamsters will be pivotal and long overdue, pointing us towards true trade unionism. I and everyone at Atlas realizes why Polar is so abhorred by this. The Polar crewmember discussions on your own alpa web board just reinforces it. A number at Polar wants it all and all their way at everyone else's expense.
Despite having said this, I would like to thank the Atlas and Polar crewmembers that have seen things for what they are and sent in authorization cards for Teamsters. The authorization card can be downloaded at http://atlasforteamsters.com .
rob,
The list was supposed to be delivered last Thursday per Pres. Prater. Hasn't happened yet. Imagine that! Funny for a guy demanding proof while never providing any of your own. As to the other parts for proof, just use your search function. Multiple downloads can be found on just Pprune.
Yes Cato laughs at us. He has found that he only has to dangle the right carrot in front of one group to generate their greed to affect both councils.
You suggest that Atlas crewmembers should hope Polar wins all of it's grievances. You forget to mention that it would be at the Atlas crewmembers expense of jobs/aircraft in your filed remedies let alone Polars negotiation positioning. Atlas crewmembers having had over 200 jobs given up to Polar in the past during our negotiations for management to make a point to Atlas crews doesn't seem to mean much to you. Then claim that flying forever and always under your scope.
Merging would stop this whipsawing combining the contracts. Many on one side just want it all and are doing just about everything they can to get it.
Moving to Teamsters will be pivotal and long overdue, pointing us towards true trade unionism. I and everyone at Atlas realizes why Polar is so abhorred by this. The Polar crewmember discussions on your own alpa web board just reinforces it. A number at Polar wants it all and all their way at everyone else's expense.
Despite having said this, I would like to thank the Atlas and Polar crewmembers that have seen things for what they are and sent in authorization cards for Teamsters. The authorization card can be downloaded at http://atlasforteamsters.com .
rob,
The list was supposed to be delivered last Thursday per Pres. Prater. Hasn't happened yet. Imagine that! Funny for a guy demanding proof while never providing any of your own. As to the other parts for proof, just use your search function. Multiple downloads can be found on just Pprune.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 21st May 2008 at 20:59.
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Ya'll seem stuck on destruction. What Laid says makes sence, but it seems like this whole thread is based on what the MEC's say. Ya'll just need to look at what your MEC's batting average is with the Arbitraitors, because as I understand in the process they are the final word in any grievance. The Polar folks could lose, but the arbitraitors merged senority list is final, period. That means even if ya'll go to the teamsters some Polar folks could now displace the Atlas folks on the senority list. Wake up your being used!
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Yes, the merged seniority list if final. No way around that. Whether we are ALPA or Teamsters. Funny how the Polar side doesn't like that award now. The Teamsters push has nothing to do with the seniority list arbitration. Even the web site say's so on a few of it's pages.
I'm guessing that the Polar MEC has other self serving reasons for holding this merger up let alone attacking the Teamsters effort. That is probably why the big effort on Polar's part here to bad mouth it.
You tell me.
I'm guessing that the Polar MEC has other self serving reasons for holding this merger up let alone attacking the Teamsters effort. That is probably why the big effort on Polar's part here to bad mouth it.
You tell me.
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Originally posted 28 April:
This is about a favorable outcome for Bourne and his inner circle, as engineered by Cato to end Polar. Period.
Honorable representation of his crewmembers is not on Bournes list of To Do items. Look for the following:
1...HARD press for Teamster representation (w/ Cato support).
2...Move for Single Carrier (w/ Cato support).
3...Subsequent vote to pull Polar from ALPA (w/Cato support).
4...Bourne installed at Teamster National.
5...Caputo/Alves/Allen Atlas Teamster positions.
6...Continuous blame of ALPA and Polar for concessionary contract from all of the above (and WhaleFr8) rings suddenly hollow with Atlas membership-
AND THE REGRET AND DISAPPOINTMENT WILL CONTINUE...
At least Dave will still be eating in the same expensive DC restaurants on the membership dime.
*******************************************************
Add Fr8Dog and NITTY-GRITTY to WhaleFr8...
The list? It will be attacked and a staple job will be attempted.
This is about a favorable outcome for Bourne and his inner circle, as engineered by Cato to end Polar. Period.
Honorable representation of his crewmembers is not on Bournes list of To Do items. Look for the following:
1...HARD press for Teamster representation (w/ Cato support).
2...Move for Single Carrier (w/ Cato support).
3...Subsequent vote to pull Polar from ALPA (w/Cato support).
4...Bourne installed at Teamster National.
5...Caputo/Alves/Allen Atlas Teamster positions.
6...Continuous blame of ALPA and Polar for concessionary contract from all of the above (and WhaleFr8) rings suddenly hollow with Atlas membership-
AND THE REGRET AND DISAPPOINTMENT WILL CONTINUE...
At least Dave will still be eating in the same expensive DC restaurants on the membership dime.
*******************************************************
Add Fr8Dog and NITTY-GRITTY to WhaleFr8...
The list? It will be attacked and a staple job will be attempted.
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Not a merger
Nitty...
I will tell you.
This is what you guys are missing. Polar had no problem with a true merger. What Cato and company is doing is a CREW LEASING SCAM. This is all about erasing any union crewmembers from 121 certificates and making any scope protection null and void.
You don't need much imagination to see where AAWH is headed with this. After what Cato has already done and tried to do to Atlas Air, I would think you guys would see the light and be supporting Polar's MEC. We have no big dispute with the Atlas MEC in general, just that they are hypnotized to Cato's violin music.
I will tell you.
This is what you guys are missing. Polar had no problem with a true merger. What Cato and company is doing is a CREW LEASING SCAM. This is all about erasing any union crewmembers from 121 certificates and making any scope protection null and void.
You don't need much imagination to see where AAWH is headed with this. After what Cato has already done and tried to do to Atlas Air, I would think you guys would see the light and be supporting Polar's MEC. We have no big dispute with the Atlas MEC in general, just that they are hypnotized to Cato's violin music.