Vell vell, ze are komingk out of der voodvork like ze vorms ze are, ja.
Trüßeeker International I vill ask you a simple question - bekaus you seem like a simple person. Vhy vould ze HKAOA vant you und ze ozzer vorms to join anyvay? Veilleicht - perhaps you müß habe ein very short memory, aber I vill refresh it fur you.
YOU und ze ozzers broke ze ban to join ze CX - und ja, ze standards vere dropped ozervise zey cannot get so many airmen. Zey vere scraping ze barrel und ze pilots daß zey took in ze ban period are zose scraps.
Ach so - you habe already broken ze ban of ze HKAOA, you kan never be trusted as a HKAOA member für zat reason....never.
Ist zat simple enough even für you Trüßeeker International.

Is that German or Afrikaans?

TSI - you do put yourself out on a limb! But funnier still would be being lectured on morals and ethics by the Germans or Afrikaans. Priceless!

As for lowering the standards Horst von Schmitt von Pork Knuckle - the facts are irrefutable. CX have never hired such experienced operators as they have in the last 2years. But you probably turned up with 9000hrs jet transport too!?

When you get emotive and all teary eyed...'dont let the facts get in the way of a good story...or some goose-stepping propaganda?'

;)

& before someone starts bleating about me giving the Afrikaans or Boxheads a hard time - Im not - I just think its funny....oh, and I am part German!

HS.
We assume you are from SA so we wont mention the rugby..

watch this space, rumor has it that letters are already being sent out to those that joined asking them to join the AOA, question is will they want to join...

Your comment about them dropping the standards is hardly worth commenting about, show some proof of that, have a look at the percentage of applicants that missed out, I bet you will find it is just the same as pre 49ers.

I know of many fine folks that were knocked back during this time.

I know of 1 Red Arrows Pilot, 1 767 Captain, 2 767 FO's, 1 1011 Captain, 1 747.200 FO, 2 737 Captains and 4 737 FO's that joined under the supposed ban.....this is in comparison to the Cessna/Beechcraft/ and Embraher pilots who filled the majority of the recruitment ranks as 2nd officers in previous years.
Scraping the bottom of the barrel.......well certainly doesn't look that way on the face of it so I decided to have a chat to a couple of the sim instructors and they report that the amount of sim time required to complete the curriculum was on average below what has been required on previous intakes.
Combine this with the current concern re the lack of experience of our senior FO's and it begs the question who is spinning a web of deceit.

fire wall
Not trying to start a pizzing comp., but to be a SF/O you have to have a minimum of 5 years RHS widebody time. Lack of experience?:hmm:

Der personality of ein applicant ist not determined by ze type of aicraft daß he flügen, und ze nümmer of hours, dümkopfs.

Und zat zey took ze less time in simulator should be so - ja? It müß be bekaus zey haben more exposure befor.
Aber, vot makes a mann a mann ist was ist inside, und his respekt für fellow human beings.

Ich bin nicht Suid Afrikaner.

I'm not starting a pizzing contest either...but..
 

JTR

What you say is bolleaux.............

and well done to Horst Schmitt, you got the young ones bitting a treat!!:ok:

Liam, I will check my maths...

Lets see, its 9 months as a JFO, then year 1,2,3,4 as an F/O... oh yeah you are right, its a minimum of 4 years 9 months in the RHS of a widebody to be a SF/O.

Sorry about that Liam, looks like I made a complete kant of myself by typing before thinking.:}

JTR,

me thinks a few of the lads you are jousting with are ex-military; so try this,

join ASL in 99, sign Integration Agreement end-of 99. Transfer from Classic to 400 in 01 immediately as Relief SFO. Then across to the pax fleet as Relief in 02. Now in 03 doing Command Course on Classic.....so that is command inside 5 years!!

Good luck to Moose...top bloke....keep dodging those bullets.

Even quicker to S/FO for the freighter guys now as the 400F expands as the next wave of integration takes place later in 03

Thanks for the clarification Punchy, and even though I admit knowing SFA about fr8trs, I will be surprised if you tell me it is anything other than 4 years as an F/O till one becomes S F/O, and hence my statement...

"to be a SF/O you have to have a minimum of 5 years RHS widebody time. Lack of experience?"

If on the other hand, the debate is about Command experience, I will just sit back and watch thanks
http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies...dlil/sleep.gif

JTR,

I think Firewall's original point about SFO's really referred to the quality of Relief Commanders; a point often made in the company. There is no requirement to have any number of years experience to be a Relief Commander.

Many pilots know SFA about Freighter Integration and I give you credit for admitting it, however your ignorance could be to your detriment as people join after you with more/similar/less experience but pick up Relief or Commands before you and you wont know why, or wont be aware that a timely email from yourself could have protected your position.

5x5.. was beginning to suspect it may have been semantics.

SF/O vs Relief F/O etc.

The experience level is a topic that is bought up time to time on the Pax fleets too it seems.

Fortunately I am not in a position to be bypassed by any of the agreements that were made, however I see your point, and if I knew of any "timely email" that would have delayed RC, I would have been over it like a rash.

Good on the guys doing a frt command with 4 years in the jet. Can be likened to pax f/o's who joined as S/O and have done 4 years in the RHS also.
Sadly that dark pilot side in some comes out when they see someone 8 years younger, and 5 years more senior (list wise) getting a run at command. Can't speak for the fr8tr, but on the pax fleet I think it is fair to say, if you make the grade, you make the grade!

No point stressing, there will always be someone youger, faster, better looking, smarter, more senior, etc etc. Just give yourself an ulcer thinking about it too much.

Bit off topic, however
 

may be of interest to some.

I was on the Freighter and now RHS on the pax 400. Consequently, I regularly listen to someone on the flight deck talking nonsense about the freighter. Given up trying to correct them, (why rain on their parade), however it is sad when it is a younger guy who is limiting his options.

The company's position is that the Freighter command course holds as much weight as the pax command course. How true this is shall be revealed later this year when the first of the mainline F/Os who took commands on the Freighter come back to the pax fleet. Interestingly, some of them were fairly junior when they went across, but they will be on year 3 or 4 Capt's pay when they come back; guys senior to them will be on year 1 or 2. No question of jumping seniority or any clandestine activity, just a guy who did his homework and sent a timely email and now reaping the benefit.

SFO/Relief Commander seems to be a goal of yours (each to their own :rolleyes) Equally, those who join the 400Freighter (and a lot are joining) will get their Relief fairly quickly, 12-24 months. When they come across to the pax fleet, hopefully after 3 years, they will carry the Relief tick with them. Jumping seniority, no......just making the best of the system.

Back to the main topic, the ban etal, Cathay is a very political company. The career path is varied and changing. Do your homework and make your choice. Ulcer material, possibly,...however if you get stressed about career altering decisions, you are in the wrong job and certainly in the wrong company!! :}

Liam, am sure you are well and truly over all of the frt fleet bashing, however you have to appreciate that some (most) of it comes from the knee jerk reaction when the whole frt issue was forced upon us. Stole my command etc. etc. becomes tedious after a while, so it is easier to throw rocks at the safety and standards issues.

The HKG guys who took a frt command early are not going to come out ahead ($) no matter how you look at it.
Those who did it off a base, maybe so, havent bothered to do the maths as it doesnt affect me.

Wasnt aware that the first PAX to FRT guy (SYD base right?) is past his three year point for coming off the base, and returning to the pax fleet, but yeh, it will be interesting.Not sure if this is directed at me but if so you have missed the mark a bit??

Cant believe it is page 5 of the thread and name calling has barely reached raised voice level so far!:ouch:

JTR,

The freighter bashing has always been easy to deal with because it said more about the person doing the bashing than the issues; as you say it was forced upon us all. Which I would say has parallels to the ban.

What bewilders me is the number of junior guys who are oblivious to how the Seniority/Freighter/Pax blend is working. Whilst it may be of no interest to them, their contempories are moving to and very soon back from the freighter. Further, I think the freighters are now up to 12 aircraft, which represents a large chunk of opportunity within the company.

The first Freighter captain returning is on a Man base. The first tranche were mostly European based on pax fleet and picked up a European base on the classic. I think there is only 1 Syd based Capt.

The HK$ value is probably not relevant because who considers their life in terms of maximising their receipt of HK$; if you did you wouldn't be a pilot!! That said, being 2-3 increments ahead in the Capt. pay stakes for the next 15 years is not insignificant. Basings and aircraft type were big considerations.

The amazing thing about this thread is the number of guys who fell for old Horse Sh!t; I would say they were gullible, however I can't as the word gullible doesn't appear in any English dictionary.

As my friend albert e stated, 'everything is relative, ja?'. When CX was expanding from the L1011 to more 747-2/3s there were ex harrier mates with not enough time to satisfy the CAD command requirements of 3000 hours after 18 months! Flying max hours per month on the Tri jet before the command course just got them in. These guys are now senior chaps in the Co. one of them very senior with EZ......
It's not the seniority that counts, it's the qualities of the guy the seniority is attached to, but that's what this thread is all about........:rolleyes:

....and what qualities would a guy have who would take a command upgrade knowing it was the position of a fellow mate who was sacked for no reason other than being associated with a union ?

you got an answer for that one Fritzy ?:rolleyes:

TSI,
Your record is stuck!!

..and if he takes an upgrade with the sacked persons approval how does he compare with one who takes the job against th sacked persons wishes??

Liam Gallagher (bit cheeky using that name) use the word gullible 'til the cows come home mate. Collins dictionary - very english , Old Chap! defines gullible as easily imposed on, credulous. sounds a bit like FRITZ:D

BB the only record stuck around here is the union's poor record on industrial relations within the pilot group at Cathay....saaavee old chap?

you've been a bit quite of late Fritz...tucking into a piece of choice pork knuckle and schnapz at the local Haufbreaur are we?

Ach Trüßeeker, vhy are you such ein Pimmelkopf?

Ze bann vas NICHT on üpgrade, it vas on INTAKE - Gött im Himmel, Schweinhünd!!
I said to you befor zat you are ein simple personen - vhy müß you alvays continue to prove it!!

Und ze namen of ze bier ist Höffbrauer, Dümkopf.

Zey certainly lowered ze standard for you to get in Trüßeeker!