Direct Entry Captains
 

Hey Guys and girls crossed paths the other day with a very sheepish looking DE Captain ex Oasis. Don't give em the time of day I say !, its the least we can do. These guys don't give a flying left about your position so won't get any small talk from me. Meet downstairs for a beer ?, dream on lowlife.

I second that motion.

Ex Gmo Ka Dec Lhr

Wooah

What about all the "Good guys" ex KA UK that had their jobs taken when CX took us over.
Dont tar them with the same brush as the ex GMO!

Fx

"That had their jobs taken"!!!?:confused:
I also find dec lhr difficult to believe but am happy to receive any info.:ok:

Do direct entry Captains have to do a PCA. If not isn't that discrimination.

Of course no PCA for them....still an old boys club. And technically, I believe, they are hired as FO's (for one day, or less); then they get the command slot that "no one else wants".
Of course this only happens if you are in the "club"

Whoa...don't go putting the KA guys in with the Oasis guys here.

Dragonair had it's own 747-400s but CX decided to take at least 4 of those 7 aircraft, repaint them in CX colours and force the KA Captains to have to undergo 'rapid-command' courses to once again be able to fly these very same aircraft! Nobody at KA Freight was vaguely interested in transferring to CX before this corporate decision.

Of course the reason CX took this decision with regards to Dragonair was that KA's then GMO and probably the Personnel Dept made a monumental stuff-up of the freighter (and passenger) operation by tring relentlessly to screw pilots out of their T&Cs or stonewalling much-needed improvements. The modus operandii was 'if you don't like it leave': and that's exactly what happenned! To the point where the whole KA operation was evidently becoming unviable.

So now the deposed KA GMO simply flies of home to a DEC in the UK and the rest of the KA pilots are being forced to do command courses simply to fly the very same airframes they have been poling-around for years.

As feather-Boa says, don't ever say any ex-KA Captain is taking anything from anybody at CX. This was all very unwelcome.

The whole thing stinks, and makes a mockery of even having a seniority list! As always they are the first to wave it around when it suits their ends, while at the same time using back door 'work arounds' to shaft the guys waiting for upgrades!!!

" We gave them command positions none of the current crew wanted " Yeah good one, I'm going to give up my house AND take a pay cut to go into the left seat! Gee I wonder why they had empty slots!!

Myself and a lot of the other F/o's are :mad: fuming about it!! I predict they are going to have serious motivation issues with the guys from here on in!! Why bother putting any work in, when there's bound to be ANOTHER shafting waiting just around the corner!

Just makes you want to :yuk:

Buggs out

Great to see some input and direction from our super cautious - gently does it Union. Gee there's not much we can do about it guys doesn't cut it. F/O's are asking themselves what has this Union done for me, there are alot of guys with the resignation letter pending. Even the girls laugh at us for our lack of b*lls when it comes to dealing with the company. In many eyes the Union has turned into a meek rubber stamp for CX, even apologizing when putting up some opposition. There better be some major changes with ST gone.

Like I said
 

Some time ago. We and the AOA gave up the ship long before this and now we are stuck. We and the AOA are not willing to put up a fight like the girls (and boys) of the F/A union. So we just need to shut up and take it in the tail pipe. I want to thank the AOA and particularly S.T. and J.F. for srewing us. I now know they work for the compnay and NOT the membership.

Only way you lot will change anything is to leave. Nobody leaves so CX just keep turning the screws. AOA? It's a non-effectual joke and due to the constant whining by the SO/FO lobby, doesn't actually represent anyone. There are 'A' scale Captains in the AOA - do they have to take a pay cut to be represented? Or a demotion? Hundreds of Direct entry Captains and extendees taking all those Commands in the fullness of time. Why? Because Cx feels like it and nobody does a thing - except moan on Pprune. Wow! Scary stuff!!

A L R

Thanks. Exactly what I meant, but it was late and after a few beers couldn't be bothered to explain in detail!

Couldn't even spell Whoa!!!!


Fx

Dragonair had 2 B744's, CX leased them a further 2 but they only had crews to fly 3 in all so instead of a further 2 (numbers 5 and 6) the whole arrangement was reviewed ending up as it is now.:ok:

Siberfuchs I have to disagree with you on the fact that Oasis/K.A or re-joiners (G.O. can you believe he's here again, almost beyond a joke) are blameless. It's a question of morals and those guys know very well they are shafting you and I. Keep it simple.

It's a sad day when our last vestige is pprune, not the AOA, and I know I'm preaching to the converted but guys spread the word to your more relaxed collegues, don't be Mr nice guy at dispatch, let these guys know we are not fools and they are un-welcome to say the least. Who did I fly for before CX - none of your bussiness mate.

The AOA should put a vote to the membership for action and take action. This affects all, not just those awaiting command upgrades.

I'll make my thoughts known to the AOA, how many of you are willing to do the same....

I hear guys all the time, complaining on pprune or at the pub, but they cant be asked to take a simple of step of letting the AOA know what they want.

Seniority list, what a joke.... I hope youre all working to rule.

Humber10 I am with you on that and I too will let the AOA know in writing (a quick 2 min yap on the phone does nothing) that I want some reaction. It's make or break time for me, this is the reason we are part of the Union, not for monthly updates on my income protection.

Its already being looked at by the GC:ok:

Call me Skipper - Dare I offer you a little bit of advice? (37 years in professional aviation). If I met you at dispatch and you showed signs of the hostility you suggest I would off-load you, shortage or no, one simply doesn't take that kind of !!!! into the air or down route, it is a flight safety hazard.
It doesn't matter how right you may be and how wrong they may be you must still remain professional and sort your grievance out with those that caused it or allowed it to happen. Your resignation won't bother CX one bit, they will still be there when you retire and your current approach is setting you up for the sack anyway. One day you may be looking for a DEC job yourself, don't answer now but when you have to make the decision, will you turn it down on moral or ethical grounds?
Blast away here on PPRuNe, of course, that is what it is for but be very careful about taking a bad attitude to work, you immediately put yourself in the wrong.
Just advice, that is all.:ok:

Parabellum thanks for the good advice, I hope all reading this thread will keep it professional but curt at work. By the way I have met with some pretty hostile, unprofessional attitudes from the left over the years, but that's ok isn't it (no I didn't bring it upon myself, I did make the effort).

hit the nail on the head there retread7......i have heard many complain about how those taking ASL positions in the 90's delayed command by years and that they should have morally done the right thing. have to admit, if there was a job available and i needed to provide for the wife and kids, i would take the job rather than think "oh my, let me lose my entire livelihood so someone else can get a command".

these guys are taking the jobs because the system lets them.

personally i think it sucks. DEC's delays those cat A'd for the freighter....that in turn delays passenger 400 commands...the whole thing has ground to a stagnant halt for the FO's and SO's. but come on guys, there might be a few oddballs in those new recruits, which we suffer day to day anyway in CX, but cx is to blame for this mess not them.

a simple question to answer.....would you refuse to take a job offered to you by one of the few airlines in this planet that can ride the storms, and hence stick those $'s in your bank account every 26th of the month, just so that your mortgage and livelihood falls apart for the good of those awaiting command. we can ponitificate, call moral high ground, but we all know the resounding answer from all of us is NO WE WOULDN't

First it was 40 Oasis guys, now the Dragonair invasion commences! With around 40-45 KA skippers been given direct left seat upgrades, it seems there is no amount of free upgrades on offer in CX.

We are grateful of course, thanks, but I guess it won’t be too difficult, as most the line training will be with KA, with a rubber stamp by some compliant trainer to get our guys across with minimal disruption.

Seems the companies thought through everything, by keeping the line training away from some of those over zealous Cathay choppers, we should see our rightful B744 commands in a relative peaceful manner (yes they were stolen by CX ).

Bye bye KA, was a nice trip, but hey I couldn’t stand the fact I was stuck on the classic for so long, while others have taken my seat on an aircraft based in my country. It all sucks, but at least I will be a 744 Captain, I will have to thank CX for at least something! And I can give those Cx arrogant 3 bar types a hard time….:}

Yep, ignored them in the BKK hotel bar last week.
Bloody disgusting, some of these people should get a life and stop helping to screw ours. They sucked the CX tit dry over the last 25 years and now don't need the money so can work for true peanuts.

SHAME SHAME SHAME


Amazing some of the "old faces" I see in flt disp lately.:=


I hope the AOA say something soon?

ACMS,

I bet they were heartbroken that you ignored them:}

Why does a former 20-25 year "A" scaler need to take such poor COS and work again?
Get a fishing rod and some golf clubs....

A divorce :confused:

Because they can't handle spending time with their wives!! :oh:

Forced retirement at 55 is now illegal in most states. It is discriminatory and against the law in most of the modern world. Why? Because it's too young to stop work. This situation is just CX trying to modernise and keep up with current practice.
I do agree that extensions should be offered in HKG only or another 'slot' on the base of the extendee should be created to stop blocking popular bases. That situation is something the AOA should address.

I don't have a problem with these guys wanting to keep flying for CX. I would actually like to see most of them stick around.

BUT..............1/...I don't like them accepting rubbish pay, well below what we accept to do it. WAY WAY below. They can accept this pay because they have a sizeable PF sitting in the bank and some already own apartments in HKG and don't need any housing allowance.

In short this is POCKET MONEY for them, CHUMP CHANGE

.....................2/ rapid commands out of seniority are NOT ON. And don't tell me that none of our junior crew want or could take the positions. That's a convenient excuse they all make whan asked why they took a rapid command.
Of course the junior crew don't want the upgrade considering what CX would pay them, why would they:D

TIME for the AOA to take a stand..

two faces
 

there are hundreds of direct entry f/o's who don't give a crap about the s/o's who got shafted and even more freighter crew(including capts)that didn't give a hoot about anyone already at cx when they took a job....wake up and sniff yourselves
:oh:

Time for a Stance
 

It is time that we stop getting shafted by these DEFO's and Rapid Commanders. I say they are barred from joining the AOA, their acceptance of offered employment terms and conditions is and will continue to be detrimental to our case and future negotiations.

The "Oasis" recruits who have really :mad: it all up are people who don't even want to be working at Cathay, so pack up and piss off. If the management think that they will be hanging around for the long haul forget these guys just want income while they tidy up affairs in HKG and move on I mean it would have to be a short term thing if you agree to work under those conditions. I love that fact that all us other employees sit there with reasonably stable rosters, very nice housing allowances bigger than their salaries!! They obviuosly have no self respect or just like the backdoor.

Further to barring them from joining the AOA it is time that the union stood up faced the music and represented the group, we don't need massive number we simply just negotiate for ourselves and AOA members only (non union on your own and no free riding). Then the numbers will come flooding back especially when the company only gives payrises and better conditions to approx 60% of the workforce. This decreases the company expenses by not having to paying out to everyone and it is not really a problem cause there is so many CoS pay scales out there anyway!

One can hope!

Oh we're awake mate.

If everybody was in the Union we would NOT BE TALKING ABOUT THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

It's a defeatest attitudes like this that cause the problem.

"the AOA is useless, so I'll save my money"

The AOA is useless BECAUSE of selfish self serving attitudes like this.

ACMS

I'll second that!!

MACH.88:cool:

guys,

Even with 100% membership, do you really think you'll get anywhere with the current AOA leaders? ST and chums are the reason I have not joined yet and even with a 100% membership ST will remain in the company pocket and a real waste of space.. When the AOA start acting like a union I will be the first to join.



Please feel free to attack my view and comment but that is the truth of the matter.


Ducking for cover now...............

Badairsucker
 

Ready - fire - aim

just yet ANOTHER pathetic excuse.

Stop letting other people do your dirty work mate and JOIN THE BLOODY UNION.

AOA Leadership
 

ST et all have now left the building. The AOA is under new leadership.

MACH.88:cool:

No ACMS, my view on the subject. Grow up and let others put their opinion across without the little rants you like to throw. I want to join a strong union with strong leadership who could improve our conditions etc but with people like your militant self it's no wonder people stay away.



Just a thought, if you were a member of say a gym or golf club and the service was well below par and you were not getting what you were promised, would you continue to pay your monthly dues?

No I would quit and never play golf there again, but this aint a golf club.

If the cost of less than one night out in LKF is too much for you then contact the AOA and they will help you out I'm sure. If you are comparing the AOA to a golf club or a gym then you are very confused and I suggest that you don't use that analogy when you go to Mr Rhodes to negotiate your next contract. But good luck.

But you were happy enough with the contract the AOA negotiated for you that you joined CX but you won't join the AOA? Good one.

Have ANY of these Oasis DE CAPT or KA capts done a PCA...I think NOT !!!:=
:= := := := := :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: