bow inn

i think we should all listen to your wife....she does speak with a tongue full of common sense

Lets not get too carried away..........

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwN...eature=related

Well actually I do...............He lives in the Gateway, and it's not cheap.

He was a Capt in AHK, he did come accross to CX around 2000 and now he's undergoing training on the 400.fleet, most likely it seems the Freighter.

All I was doing was asking a question, you guys really do get worked up.

Everything I said is 100% true and I don't have a problem with the guy if what he has been given is following seniority, infact he probably deserves it.

There are a lot of highly experienced Pilot's flying freighters for us, did I ever say any different?

I was trying to workout how he was able to live in the Gateway on a 400 freighter command HKG that's all.

So settle down you lot.

It wont effect my command, I ALREADY have one thanks, but it might have screwed a lot below me that don't.:=

You don't think CX would ever bend the rules do you? Nah wouldn't happen I think:D

ACMS:
"All I know is that this guy was with AHK from '95. He was a Capt on the 742 classic and in 2000 he must have joined the CX seniority list. Now he's got a 744 Pax left seat based in HK on a fairly good housing allowance.
"

See previous remarks re tosserdom.... :cool:

Albatross
 

"If they're so wonderful how come so many of them shot through to HKG for a pax F/O job when their freighter command came up?"

Your choice of answers

a. Money.... chance to experience expat living... the same reasons you did...
b. The AOA told them to, thereby, depriving some yet to join SO, who once built an Airfix kit, his rightful place on the CX seniority list.

ACMS... if you took an nanosecond to ask or listen; you would know that Command seniority is now 1 Jan 2000 and therefore the first of the ex-ASL pilots are senior enough to hold pax commands... surely you have no problem with that or are you with Albatross.... who thinks seniority should run from date of application or date of building first Airfix kit:rolleyes:

Alba Dross,

I think I sense a little jealously in your tone. Maybe you're intimidated by these chaps previous experience.

You appear to be a very bitter man. If you had flown the freighter, then you would have experienced a very demanding roster. 12 day patterns and only 4 to 5 days off in between, makes a serious dent in your lifestyle. When their 3 years were up on the freighter, many elected to become FO's on the passenger fleet in Hong Kong. A change is as good as a rest. In exactly the same way that an SO chooses to accept the opportunity to move to the right seat as a JFO. Why are you so bitter about this particular group of pilots?

If it bothers you so much, look up this individuals telephone number in crew direct and give him a call. That way, you could get your facts straight and not open your self up to such criticism. Don't assume, check!

I think if the company is holding off pax slots due economic conditions and leaving guys waiting for years then the AOA shouldn't have been pushing to get freighter guys into the pax fleet at the same time. One group of crew screwed the other.

Albadross.....you seem to have a complete misunderstanding of the whole DEFO issue. Before 1st jan 2000, there was just ASL flying the freighter. ON that day, ASL pilots were allowed to join the bottom of the seniority list. just like you and i did when we joined. the ones that didnt join generally did so for reasons like a quicker freighter command or the chance to work until they were 60 (as opposed to 55 in our CoS).

every other freighter pilot who has joined cathay since then has joined the cathay seniority list on his date of joining. they do not move to hkg to take an SO's chance of an ugrade, they move to hkg to take a pax position that was by right theirs. SO's do three years making beds, then upgrade. DEFO's on the freighter do three years on the freighter then upgrade to the pax fleet. it is the same thing based on seniority and has been for 8 1/2 years.

ASL? most joined cathay in 2000, of those who stayed, most of them have either retired or joined oasis or similar, leaving how many? 10? and they were integrated to the pax fleet this year not after begging the AOA to become a passenger pilot...no...because the company could not crew the freighter with the FACA in place. remove ASL, no FACA, we all fly the freighter.

just take this away from this.....most freighter pilots choose to fly the freighter because they dont want to be an SO or would rather have a basing. they move to the pax fleet by rights, not taking anyone elses place, just in pure seniority having served a minimum of "3 years on the freighter fleet". so to the ASL bashers out there, get a grip of the facts. To the SO's who think that DEFO's on the freighter should not join the pax fleet....well the move is theres by rights!

Not quite. You just haven't been able to construct an effective, conclusive argument for any of your points. In fact, none of us responding to you have been able to work out what your issue is.

We knew what the roster was like before we took the job. We also accepted, as per the contract, that after 3 years, we would move to the passenger fleet. Just like an SO knows that after 3 years as a cruise pilot, he gets to become a JFO. Simple.

You clearly have no idea of the background to any of this. Another immature response. When did you join?

Which means that we'll be seeing your name put forward for the next GC, thus blessing us all with your outstanding grasp of industrial matters.

Any news yet on the facts concerning that naughty ASL man who has upset you so much?

A history lesson you didn't ask for..
 

"Of course if I was in ASL and the AOA said "hey, you wanna fly for a pax airline instead.."

Whilst that may be what you want to believe; however here's my version...

After a fairly bloody battle lasting the first half 1999 that saw CX effectively grounded for a number of days due to a fairly comprehensive pilot sickout, the company had all the pax guys (but most notably the "A" scalers.. Capts if you will) on a sign or be fired. With about 72 hours to run to the deadline, which in theory could see CX fire all its pilots; a rushed/ fraught deal was struck.

To put this in perspective, I can recall seeing the press conference detailing the "landmark deal" featuring Swire's TT and the AOA's TP on CNN; this was world news! This deal had significant, but staged paycuts for A scale (offset possibly/partially by share options), small but staged pay rises for B Scales, a commitment to resolve Roster Practices and the end of ASL as a separate pilot recruitment agency of CX; because the AOA believed it undermined the careers of junior crew.... ie you

Flights Ops proposed that ASL be ended by a Voluntary Integration. You may think it was a great offer for the ASL guys; however you have to remember that in 1999 by signing to Veta you signed away 5 years flying and lost all your seniority in terms of command. Also you have to remember the ASL/ Veta guys were not on the best of terms. For neither the AOA nor ASL was this a great deal.

Albatross, I doubt you read this far....way too much info.. you are far more comfortable believing the AOA stitched you.... so be it.

PS Come on tell us... what did the nasty ASL man do to you?

What the AOA didn't ask for!
 

B scales
separate freighter flying
freighter pay scales
C scales
UFO scales
49ers
ASL
Unilaterally imposed payrises
Sign or be fired 1999
The use of 'should' and 'normally' in RP04/07
Sub inflation payrise for B scales
Demise of the FACA


The AOA has been fighting a dunkirk style rearguard action for over a decade now trying to preserve T+C's. The Company has successfully Goebelled its way into having pilots believe all our current ills are due to the AOA.

To the whiners on this website, fix it or get out of the way while others try to fix it!

Well said NC:ok:

Spot on Mr.NC,

Couldn't agree more. To all those willing to put in the effort and work on the GC, well done. I just don't have the passion within me to make such a commitment. I'm very grateful that there are those out there willing to contribute much of their personal time towards the greater good of the pilot body. Good on you.

An old friend of mine many years ago referred to military administrators (blunties) as "speed bumps on the road to mission accomplishment." I suggest that the negative voices on this forum are very much out of the same mold. You're just background noise.

Not quite true Stillalbatross. Don't forget about our colleagues who have the seniority for command, but are not in the left set.

A wicked combination of Cat B, C & D FOs, many in VERY dubious circumstances, and some guys who've decided to stay on bases, rather than return to HK for command - mostly a lifestyle & financial decision, proving that the "premium for living in HK" is a myth.

Look around, you'll be surprised at the number of people out there in these categories, and then ask how many current captains suffered the indignity of a delayed command - usually a big dose of intimidation to make them "appreciate their jobs"

What the AOA has failed to protect its members from:

B scales
separate freighter flying
freighter pay scales
C scales
UFO scales
49ers
ASL
Unilaterally imposed payrises
Sign or be fired 1999
The use of 'should' and 'normally' in RP04/07
Sub inflation payrise for B scales
Demise of the FACA

Members give a good chunk of their salaries to the AOA in order to be protected from the company imposing the above.

I like you NC, I think you are earnestly trying to help. The only problem is you are trying to put lipstick on a pig and call it beautiful. The AOA is broken. I would rather fight for my COS individually than have that outfit screw it up even more, whilst happily taking my dough.

AOA..NO WAY!

Do tell us what you've negotiated individually!!:}

Quote:

I like you NC, I think you are earnestly trying to help. The only problem is you are trying to put lipstick on a pig and call it beautiful. The AOA is broken. I would rather fight for my COS individually than have that outfit screw it up even more, whilst happily taking my dough.


NC won't/can't really help...he has a history of quitting.:=

Joe,

OK, we all know that you don't think NC is going to see out his term. Now please give it up. You are like an old broken record. You obviously have issues with NC.

Do you care to identify yourself, as NC has, so that we can vote/not vote for you in the GC elections? I'll give you the benfit of the doubt but my money says that you are not on the list trying to make a difference.

If NC was running for president he would certainly have my vote. I would rather have a man who is willing to make a stand for what he feels is right than a bloke who justs accepts a shafting happily.

Albatross
 

How is an SO's career progression different post 1 Jan 2000 than pre-2000?

CX has always recruited DEFO's. Initially it was exclusively to the pax fleet pre 96ish, then to ASL 96-2000 and then post 2000 to the Freighter fleet and now 2008 to both fleets....

I understand that when SOs were originally introduced (pre-2000) they didn't go onto the Seniority List as DOJ..... do you want to return to that system?

Now Princess, dry your eyes and tell us what the nasty ASL man did to you? Did he have fat fingers... lack of lube.. not send flowers the next day...what?

Enough already
 

I am simply speechless. The pre-ASL guys now up for Pax command joined CX list in 2000. If they had joined as SOs, DEFOs or as ASL DEC does not matter. Their number is now up. The only part of your arguments that resembles reality is the ASL guys never made bunks (at CX at least)

I can't make it more crystal clear for this guy. Will somebody please take over.

Cider30

stillalbatross

maybe you had to make beds for 3 years because you were a slow learner......

all pax commands from now go to those who get to the top of the list...be they SO, VEta or ex-ASL.

entice us to a decent argument.....rather than just act stupid is as stupid does

No lets not move on...
 

This is not the first occasion that you have spouted tosh about ASL and when faced with facts you say "move on" only to spout on at another date.

You said.. "From here on all pax commands go to ASL freighter pilots". I think there about 80 ex-ASL pilots on 1 Jan 2008... then after those who want/pass Command (and not all do:eek:) you are back into guys who joined as SO's from 2 Jan 2008... "Ops normal" to coin a phrase...

Albatross look between your legs and see if there are 2 dangly things, if there are, find the courage to answer these two simple questions.

1. Are any of these ex-ASL pilots Junior to me?
2. These pilots are now vacating Freighter commands; have I applied for these now vacant commands?

I await your, as always, considered reply..

PS My understanding is the KA guys come with a DOJ that gives, rightly or wrongly, little or no recognition of their time in KA.... do you know different?

We need to get freighter pay up to pax pay! It's the only way to put Command opportunities back in order of seniority.

I'm not against guys taking early commands on the freighter - it's an immediate pay rise. Why wouldn't any new joiner who has 10 years to wait but already has the experience for a CX command just do them as a Captain on the freighter?

He probably gets to live in the country of his choice and also the choice to stay there on the freighter if he wishes, 'til he's senior enough for a pax base.

Now if freighter pay was equal, any new command on the -400 would come from a conversion from another fleet. It's amazing how CX doesn't do pax commands on the -400 due to sector limitations yet they do in on the freighter everyday - I bet you would see commands on the -400 instantly as CX changes the rules to suit them. Guys/Gals in the 900+ mark on the seniority list would be inline to take all the available commands which they should be! :D (There are 15 more 747s on the way - fair enough the classics are leaving).

Secondly any new joiner who was looking for a pay rise via an early command might just realize the COS is just not worth it without the command option.

Face it HK isn't worth it any more, why not join on a base then make your own pay rise by taking a freighter command.

Captains are leaving the pax fleet to take a pay cut by flying the freighter just to get on a base. I saw the list on D don't know H's desk!

So once again CX WINS! as we screw ourselves bickering. :ugh:

Soon the freighter fleet will be bigger than the -400 pax fleet! so in theory the majority of Capts, F/Os will be paid less than the minority! Now that makes sense :eek:

SMOC; these threads follow a pattern
 

"We need to get freighter pay up to pax pay!"

Yep and we need "World Peace" and we need "no child to go to bed hungry"...

Care to tell us how..... ???

If you are going to type... "stop bickering amongst ourselves "or such platitudes.... save Danny the bandwidth, because like I said these threads follow a pattern....

1st July
 

The 70 or so joiners from KA will have a DoJ of 1st July 08. They will be kept in their current KA seniority order and there will be no other NJs on that day.
Is that OK with you stillalbatross?

Liam,

You're right, but if I had all the answers I wouldn't be in this job. :}

How about the AOA propose it?

Yes it's a common theme, but are you for or against it? It's the only way I can see us having a somewhat unified pilot body and also restoring some balance to the seniority system.

Freighter Pay up to Pax Pay
 

Sorry SMOC I assume you are extracting the urine... however on the off chance you are serious...

"How about the AOA propose it?"

...does the number 49 mean anything to you....

"but are you for or against it?"

No, I am not on a Management Bonus, so like everyone else I'm against. Even putting aside the moral issues, and acting in pure self-interest, I know it is now Management's target for pilot's salaries... Unified FO Salaries ring a bell....

PS Albatross.... found those gonads yet...???

Albatross
 

I guess the answer is "no" then......

Grow a pair.....

stillalbatross

are you saying that the ASL guys joining CX seniority list in 2000 cost you 4 years in time to command? most suggest it was only two years delay, which although a shame is a lot less than you claim. i trust you are not factoring failed command courses into your grumbles!

still albatross,
I am not sure if you are just sh1t stirring or genuinely perplexed by our industrial history. I will assume the latter!

From late 80s till 1996 - experienced applicants applied for FO positions (wasn't called DEFO as the majority of joiners were FOs back then) and the inexperienced applied to be SOs. CX screwed around with seniority making it DoJ in HKG, then date of course in ADL then date of upgrade to full FO from Junior FO. Basically they managed to p1ss off several hundred pilots with changing rules on seniority...this was mid 90s...any similarity to today?

From 1996 to 2000 the choices were, broadly speaking, FO in ASL or SO in CX, regardless of experience. Needless to say the ASL option was not desired by those that were recruited to it nor those affected by it. One of the outcomes of the 99 discord was the chance to reunite all pilots in one seniority list...now something to keep in mind...the ASL pilots gave up seniority to join the CX seniority list. Not only that they gave up a potential quick command, as I believe they were promised a 3/4 command rate for ASL versus CX. So to now berate the guys that switched over to CX is incredibly insensitive and ignorant. Those guys gave up fast commands and time in company for the greater good of a common seniority list. So to say they cost you time to command makes me question your understanding of seniority!

Now I do have a reputation for liking numbers...so just to humour me please explain how all those guys giving up their seniority to join CX on 1/1/00 cost you quote "7-9million" and 4 years to command? The guys that joined as SOs late 1999 got a faster command because of the incorporation of ASL guys on 1/1/00.


Just to give a big picture perspective to this, something sadly lacking at this airline!; there is no rhyme nor reason to these events. Still albatross, if you really believe the AOA has planned the current mess and is responsible for it, I suggest you sue them for lost potential earnings. I have only been involved with the GC for a short while in my career but in that time they managed to hide their machiavellian plans to screw your career!


To non AOA members...there is no silver bullet to our problems. What I do know for sure is that 2400 individuals will have no more success, and likely to have less success, than an organisation that represents 2400 pilots. History is replete with industrial examples proving that hypothesis. But if you believe you know better, save your 1% and when anything bad happens, tell yourself it was the AOA's fault, and when anything good happens(as if!) tell yourself it is because you saved your 1%. To me being in the AOA is like taking anti oxidants....can't prove it helps but I know it doesn't hurt.

Liam
 

What do the 49ers have to do with proposing a pay rise for the freighter fleet?

Quote:

---

No, I am not on a Management Bonus, so like everyone else I'm against. Even putting aside the moral issues, and acting in pure self-interest, I know it is now Management's target for pilot's salaries... Unified FO Salaries ring a bell....

---

Sorry but who's "everyone else" - freighter guys wouldn't want a pay rise, the guys/gals next up for command wouldn't want an earlier command?

The unified F/O salary was a effectively a pay rise, CX wanted DE F/Os to be based on freighter pay the AOA made sure it was based on pax pay!

The moral issue? Yes it's disgusting that colleagues should get a pay rise :{

What are you on? a pay rise is a good thing! or does it only count when it's for you? :=

SMOC
 

take a deep breath . I thought my post was pretty clear...I'll say it again in more words..

One of the stated aims of the 2001 dispute was "A-Scale" for all. As you know some individual members of the AOA suffered very badly as a result of that dispute and the AOA is now a shadow of its former self as a result; so to suggest that to date the AOA has failed to ask/suggest a common salary is fatuous.

The only pilots to benefit from Freighter Pay are those on Management bonuses. Even if a pilot didn't care that someone is paid less than him, the very real danger of that attitude is the lower salary becomes Management's target salary. With the A scale pay frozen, inflation is making A=B; Currency and home country inlation is eroding HK B scale such that B scale FO's are accepting C Scale commands. New pax FO's are receiving something more than C, but less than B on the UFO salary.

Without doubt new joiners on lower salaries are bad news for all pilots; unless of course you are on bonus....

Albatross
 

Whilst I am sure NC will reply to you, it seems the main thrust of your angst is you think the AOA should not have agreed the 2000 Integration of ASL.

In 1999 the AOA saw benefit in the Integration as it removed the threat of the company forming other ASL's to further denegrate pilot's salaries and divide the pilot group. I understand IFALPA was involved and the AOA wished to get a "scope" clause in our COS.

The company essentially agreed to recruit all future pilots into CX/Veta, but on a "Junior Fleet" concept for the freighters. I believe the AOA held its nose and agreed this because, firstly they were all about to fired in 72 hours, and secondly they saw that by reunifying the pilot body they could regroup and then take the company on at later date... ie July 2001....

You have a mental model how things would have been if ASL had of remained separate with the pax and freight worlds separated; one on B and other on C scale. Do you really believe the company would have settled for that? What makes you think you would not have been recruited as an SO into ASL2 Ltd and on a B-scale lite?

Integration has not been without it's benefit. Many of your contemporaries have picked up Freighter Commands and are now on base and presumably fairly content. SO's who joined in the 90's have done the early Freighter Command, done their 3 years, and are now yr 5 pax Capts.... Has the AOA's decision benefited them?

Whilst I note you haven't answered my questions directly, I assume you joined after 1 Jan 2000 and that you haven't applied for a Freighter Command because it is not attractive to you.

So to summarize your position, pilots senior to you are getting commands and that upsets you. Pilots junior to you are taking commands that you do not want and that upsets you. Before you joined, the Company had an Integration; you knew that, but joined anyway... it upsets you....

Another question if you have the minerals...

Why don't you just leave..... please....?

Liam
 

I totally agree with you. That's the reason we should aim to get rid of freighter pay because it is the lower pay and the target as you say for management, and as we both said people are leaving HKG B scale pax commands for O/S freighter pay.

stillalbatross
 

If you joined before the formation of ASL then it cost you time to command. If you joined after most ASL pilots were reintegrated(ie 1/1/00) into CX then time to command reduced slightly. That is because some of the freighter commands went to CX pilots as opposed to all freighter commands going to ASL pilots before 1/1/00.

Now lets look at the ASL pilots that joined CX 1/1/00.
The Captains remained as freighter captains on whatever base until their seniority allows them to become pax captains - I suspect that will be in the next year or so. So how do you assert they got massive payrises? I don't know if any are pax captains yet so they are still waiting for their massive payrises after almost 9 years remaining on their freighter pay. Their pay(ie CX freighter) was so poor that some even gave up being freighter captains to be HKG pax FOs, after their seniority had built up enough to be FOs - around 2003-2004.

The FOs - well they have been well and truly screwed by the reintegration. If they had remained in ASL they would all be Captains as 3/4 of the commands were promised to ASL FOs back in 1/1/00. Instead those FOs that transferred across had to do a further 3-4years as freighter FOs before finally having the seniority to come across to pax FO. Those guys are still waiting for their seniority to build up to get a command on the pax fleet.


Unlike other airlines, CX never separated pax and freighter flying completely. That is why since the late 90s you have had the most senior and expensive A scale CNs flying the freighter on many occasions. Management is either too myopic or have too much 'loss of face' to ever admit to getting the freighter equation wrong. Pax FOs are getting more senior and more expensive due to delayed upgrades - so whilst CX appears to win on the freighter costing they lose on the pax costing.

Politics wise...I wasn't involved with the reintegration of ASL in 1999 but I know many of the participants and I might respectfully assert they knew what they were doing. The aim was to reintegrate not separate! I can assure you the AOA did look at other airlines and talk to other unions. For the american style of unionism to work you need american pilots under american protection. Likewise for UK or Aussie unionism...just because other people had wins doing things their way doesn't naturally mean we did things the wrong way! Still you are entitled to your own opinion and I hope you are one of the 22 nominees so you can share it and be the silver bullet we need!


By the way, I have no idea how you got the numbers you got. Firstly, how do you come up with a 4 year delay to command? If you joined after 1/1/00 then your command is/was not delayed at all as the ex ASL guys are senior to you. If you joined before ASL was formed then you are already a CN and I can tell you my delay was not 4 years, probably closer to 2years.

For the sake of a numerical exercise I will assume your 4 years are correct. That means you missed on CN1-SCN2 pay for 4 years then remained 4 increments below for the remainder of your career in CX. Assuming you were due to be a CN today but will be delayed by 4 years from today, the NPV of all the future lost earnings, using your 10% discount rate, is close to $1.6million HKD.

NC...why don't you stop referring to the A scale as 'the most expensive'...and use the term 'higher paid' instead? Your phrasing is prejudicial and implies that they are paid 'too much' by comparison. Needless to say, none of us is paid what we're worth anymore. Thank you.

excuse me
 

excuse me for being thick...but why should ANYONE have to take a pay cut to get a promotion to captain??? regardless of what they fly in CX:ugh:
and pax f/o's going to the freighter for commands and freighter captains coming to the pax fleet as f/o's???????what the hell is wrong with this company?

It was ever thus. Senior copilots have (almost always) earned more than junior captains by cherry picking trips with good overtime and allowances, certainly on bidline based roster. That's why some guys prefer to remain in the RHS-it's life style. Do you work to live, or live to work?

Except CX doesn't have a bid line nor a system to "cherry pick" never has. The reason CX can have freighter Captains paid less than pax F/Os is due to the fact they have divided all the pay scales so that the crews are divided, and therefore easy to conquer, a managements dream! :sad:

Edit: Clarification

sygyzy
 

...are we on the same planet?...or do you work for a real airline with a rostering system that includes(any)input from the crew?

>excuse me for being thick...but why should ANYONE have to take a pay cut to get a promotion to captain???

You don't have too.