What do you suggest for the 49ers?
 

:gents, with all respect, but you are doing exactly what management wants :us to do : start fighting with ourselves instead with the enemy.
:let's stay united

Good plan. What do you suggest for the 49ers?

Kitsune,

On that note...you are correct.

We are our own worst enemy.:ouch::*:ugh:

We voted against the payscales offered to Direct Entry F/O's in OZ

So, yes we did something about it and can sleep straight in bed knowing full well WE TRIED to stop them.

You did NOTHING.

stillalbatross, you are the definition of a moron. The A scalers care as much about this as you do. The reason: we saw what the long-term result of ASL/Bscale was on our earnings (salary down 55% in real terms). Talk big...but what CONSTRUCTIVE suggestion to you have? The history of this airline the past 15 years should tell you that nothing short of dramatic, hard-hitting action will have any chance of affecting the outcome of the companies strategy. Without such action, YOUR career will be hollowed out, depressing and frankly miserable. I suggest you stop attacking A scale, and use your 3 brain cells to figure out exactly what it is you can do that will save YOUR career.

Gents,although the company has bypassed the FACA (ftr aircrew agreement ) in relation to forcing Passenger 400 drivers to fly the rubber dog shi** , no FTR training captain is permitted to TRAIN on the passenger fleet. Of course if we get rid of FTR payscales and we become a big happy family that would change. ( then we would have another very bitter group looking at pilots in the left seat 11 years out of seniority?)

I think we are going to see a crewing oversupply very soon if kero stays above $150 mark, the classic gets parked then what do they do with that crew group?? All senior to the dragon air and oasis boys, maybe the special leave scheme will rise from the ashes again.

Once again we have lost our chance for a payrise, the fight is on to now hold the line and very carefully defend the contract as it stands, build our unity and concentrate on who the real threat and act accordingly.

How about we up the FRT pay scales, however keep the FTR Captains flying the freighter till they are senior enough to fly PAX, they shouldn't complain :eek: they got a pay rise and had expected to not fly PAX when they opted for a FRT command. :=

Any new Command on the -400 will go back in order of seniority so F/Os should see a drop in time to Command time. :D

S/Os will still suffer however CX always had the right for DE F/Os.:{

Yeah, but they are SUPPOSED to be paid bypass pay and be upgraded in seniority - neither of which is consistently happening!!

Nevermind, the SOs are revolting (buddum-bum, TISH!). There will be a changing of the guard soon with a few SOs on the AoA. Nothing more frightening than a one-striper with literally nothing to lose!!

A-Scalers be afraid, be very afraid...:E

A scale
 

I can guarrantee any agreement for 65 will involve a pay cut for the A scale crew..yet again.
If all non A scale aspire to become the lowest common denominator..so it shall be.In the face of non stop company cost cutting pressure do you honestly believe they'll stop once all A scalers are gone?
The most senior B scale can look forward to a lifetime of cuts,hours hikes and a degradation of conditions delivered in exactly the same way they have been for the last 15 years.
Incidentally A scale crew have fought longer,harder and seen conditions deteriorate much more severly than any crew member to date...and to say they didn't fight is absolute crap....most of you weren't here to see it.None of them wanted B scales and still don't.But the work force and the AoA are totally compliant and perhaps you should ask yourselves if you're prepared to put your job on the line to defend a pay cut or reduction in your contract...what's that???? no i didn't think so...just a deafening silence.
But don't fret...your turn will surely come.

A scale holding the line in 99?
 

I guess that would be the same A scale that supported the action of 99?
Threat of being fired was not enough, it took the B scale to defend the line for what? Be careful , people have long memories and when they smell bullsh** its hard not to comment.

Direct entry and seniority in aviation
 

The current system in many airlines upgrading f/os to captains and not taking DECs is the most damaging to pilots, period! Airline managements milk it to the fullest, keeping the pilot workforce in subservience. If there is an open market for pilots, free market dynamics will keep salaries, T & Cs and perks up to reflect worldwide demand. Of course there are those who will argue that third world pilots will flood the market...absolute hogwash! Other professions progress but professional pilots stick to this archaic regressive system. Imagine a chartered accountant having to start as an audit clerk when he move company or a top lawyer restarting as an articled clerk or a brain surgent beginning a new life as an intern!

Pilots sticking to the seniority system are like the Japanese " sarariman " s expecting a cradle to grave job security in return for eternal servitude and loyalty. These blokes have no confidence in their ability and hide behind, as jandakotcruiser alluded to, a feudal system with fortresses to protect their pathetic selves from competition. Hey, " the best man wins ' are what they preach BUT NEVER PRACTISE. The hypocricy of the remnants of the East India Company.......free trade, they admonish but then erect barriers like embargos, tariffs, farm/industry subsidies, etc. Likewise when CX, BA, QF, RBA pilots leave to other airlines they demand direct entry but back in their former turfs they fight tooth and nail to maintain their castles and fortresses. Plain greed, lack of confidence and absolutely no sense of natural justice! Bombs away! Flame away guys

selective memory HKDriver.....I was in the Excelsior hotel for almost 2 weeks during the events of 99'...along with many of my A scale colleagues. The irony in the present situation is that the circumstances we are faced with really only threaten the B scalers. Most of us 'old' A scalers really won't be affected all that long by whatever is eventually the settled facts. I suggest you and your army of angry-ant B scalers start to plan a proper strategy that will directly improve your career prospects. Worrying about us is only more time wasted better spent saving your own sorry a**es...

HKG Driver

Are you suggesting all the B scales supported the action in 99?

I was a based pilot at the crew hotel, on the first morning, and along with the vast majority of my A scale colleagues at the hotel, became too stressed to fly. The stress was real, very real. Then to add to that stress, three B scale first officers and one A scale captain flew us home that afternoon on a Company aircraft. How do you think our stress levels were that afternoon, being the first members to call-in? We thought our careers were over (in fact, careers were effectively ended for 49 colleagues that day).

In the next few days, many more crew became too stressed out to fly, both A scales and B scales. I very much appreciated the B scalers who had the courage to step across the line and support their colleagues. It had the desired effect and grabbed the Company’s attention.

But don’t for a minute denigrate the A scale effort by suggesting recalling their action "smells of bull****"; or that 100% of the B scalers took part...that is "bull****".

It was half-and-half on both sides…. The men and the boys.

What was really noticeable and quite remarkable from a "chutzpah" point of view, was that many of the loudest and most outspoken members prior to the event, put their heads down and ran for cover. They did not support their colleagues.

I think of these people when I peruse Pprune these days.

based pilot
 

says it all , how would you know what was really happening? At causeway bay yep must have been real hard slinking back home first class. Agree with you on the loud mouths running for cover like cockroaches when the light was shone on them disgusting gutless wonders. My point was that the majority of my fellow group walked the walk , paid for it by a vindictive management years later and to say otherwise by a poster needed a retort. Anyway the main issue is now is to simply defend our COS, the S/O's are getting screwed by the company, F/O's having their options taken by new joiners because its cheaper? finally age 65, housing and RP08 coming up for barter?? The question needs to be asked what are you willing to do about it? I would not go on a sick out, make questionable operational decisions but would fully support a contact compliance stance and sign a undertaking letter stating that to fellow union members. I actively try and recruit new union members, encourage active debate and ring email the GC members concerns that I have. We all have our concerns and issues how many actually put pen to paper or even pick up a telephone? rant over

ravin11
 

Ravin 11 well said:ok:

I am looking forward to the day when the last A Scale leaves. B Scales will be frozen (the only reason B scale get pay raises is because of the A scale disparity) and C scale will get the pay raises instead. Then I am going to sit back and laugh myself silly as ACMS ( who is actually a B+ scaler) and his mates keep crying like the 5yr olds they act like.

When the new AOA ( B scale dominated) committee calls for industrial action in the future I and my A scale mates will stand with them BUT I must admit alot of us are getting very tired of the A scale bashing.

Now run along and shave your chest before you go to the gym (instead of meeting for a beer in the pub) and whilst you download the latest phone ring to your mobile how about downloading some balls to your underpants.

OK, I'll bite
I've heard this "pay being dragged up by the A scale" argument before and it's utter nonsense.
You won't find me A scale bashing here - we'd all like a bit of it - but please no more broccoli!

the only reason B scale get pay raises is because of the A scale disparity

If you believe this , you have been smoking something mate...next you are going to tell me that Santa and the tooth fairy really do exist.:eek:

Guys

No one is going to get F@#k All. Have a look At this thread "Final Interviews Canceled for July" in the Wannabes forum.

Sorry to burst your bubble but the opportunity for improvement in COS is gone.

It was 6 months ago!

Fx

I have just written out a full page reply to Feathers which the computer has "eaten," so her is an abbreviated version:

Feathers,

I disagree with you. The company has a long history of streching/delaying paytalks out long enough so that they eventually co-incide with some form of crisis. This industry of ours historically has a crisis every few years and CX always takes full advantage of this.

The payrise that we have earned is long overdue and should come from the record results of the previous few years. It shouldn't be thrown out on the possibility of a period of harder times. Business is still extremely healthy. This will most likely continue for a long while yet as people still have to travel. I think the last weekly update had us about 10% ahead of budget.

Don't belive too much of the "Fuel crisis" propoganda that you are going to read about. Sure the price of fuel is very high but CX will come out of this much better placed than they would have been if there was no fuel crisis. Our opposition will/have suffer(ed) ultimately leaving CX with a larger market share and in the Oasis case, a partial soultion to the crewing problems.

Despite what the company say a fairly healthy chunk of the increased costs is eaten up by the passenger surchgarge along with the fuel hedging. How does this industry get away with this fuel surcharge?
It costs me 50% more to fill my cars gas tank today than it did a year ago but I have to pay for that. No fuel surcharges to help and no payrise either.

Every time we read that "currencies have worked in our favour" in the weekly news, what it really means is that the crew (HKG) have just gone even further backwards.

At the very least we need to have an agreement whereby we receive a minimum payrise of the inflation % each year. At least that way we are not going backwards as rapidly as we are now.

Wow, talk about a disgruntled group....You think you really have it that bad? Maybe, but I know and talked to some of your pilots and they seemed pretty happy to work there still. They talk about how quickly they'll get command and all the "benefits" you guys get. :confused: Maybe they were still new and drank too much cool-aid. But in the end, you guys are so fragmented over there that nothing will ever get done - because you're pilots. Pilots bark loud in bars, forums, amongst themselves, but rarely if ever, actually bite.

Look slightly over to KAL and Asiana. They're hiring DECs and DEFOs also - at a higher payscale than the locals. If you guys really want the DECs and DEFOs off the property, tell some of your check pilot mates to just "fail" the new blokes. It's a dirty tactic, but seems to actually have an effect compared to the spineless, worthless unions they have over there like yours.

And by the way, wake up and smell the coffee guys. You'll never beat the management. Just look at the success rate of pilots vs. managment over the years. (ie Ansett, Eastern, and Continental to name a few)

Sad reply...sad person?

Grounded
 

Interesting to see interviews cancelled. Airlines around the world beginning to ground part of their fleets or talk about it. If we are 10% undermanned now it won't take too much of a shift to become 10% overmanned.
Tough times ahead.

Purposely fail nother professional?
 

Holy cow, whats the pilot community coming to? As an TRE I wouldn't dream of failing another pilot who is really up to mark for whatever reasons, especially industrial ones or company pressure. You gonna drag your profession into a cesspool!:=:=

Cathay have been changing the rules for years when it comes to CandT. Just look at that ridiculous 'relief' qualification. Five years ago you would have to sweat blood and piss nails to get 3 stripes. The pay rise was spectacular as well!! Another classic case of Cathay's interpretation of effort versus reward!! Now they give you 4 stripes at your first interview (along with your new joiners lube and butt plug). BUT OHHHHH NOOOOOO we're not dropping our standards!! Like F@ck they're not!!:yuk:

W@nkers!!!!!:yuk::yuk::yuk:

FlexibleResponse,

Yes, I am sad AND bitter to see how our profession has deteriorated into the gutter over the years due to s&%tty management. Just stated a few factual examples. I browse the Pprune and other forums once in a while and am sad to read more negatives than positives in these forums all over.

Oh well, I guess times do change...

Question for you guys.

I know a guy that was in Air Hong Kong back about 6 years ago ( the days when they operated the 747's in blue ) as a Capt.

We integrated some of them into CX into the Freighter fleet after we bought AHK? right?

So how come his date of Joining is shown as 1995 in Crew Direct and now he is checking out on the 400 PAX fleet as a Capt HKG base? ( I think he's flying PAX now )

Why isn't his DOJ around 2002? The date of the integration.

How did he get a number based on 1995 DOJ? How does he rate a 400 CN position?

Could someone refresh my memory as to how they were integrated in CX seniority list please?

Ta

At the time (2002) all AHK flight crew were either VETA or ASL. Some of the VETA crews had originally been mainline Cathay FO's and had therefore kept their seniority.

Also, in 2000 an opportunity was made available for ASL crews to join VETA at the bottom of the seniority list. These crews are now becoming senior enough to take a pax command.

Regards

csd

For all these guys, DoJ will either be 1 Jan 2000 (the date of the integration) if they're ex-ASL or whenever they Joined CX if they just went there for an early command.
It sounds like the guy you're referring to was a CX F/O, took a fr8r command in say 2000-2004 and is now coming back to the pax fleet.
If he was ex-ASL then, as csd wrote, he must be one of the more senior ex-ASL guys who now hold the seniority for a pax command.

Stillalbatros and ACMS,
You both seem to peddle an impressive amout of bullsh1t disguised as fact on this website.
Fact 1 : they joined to fly frtr a/c only-agreed
Fact 2 : company intergration sponsored by AOA took place Jan 1 2000. Any time served prior to Jan 1 2000 working for CX subsiduary (ASL) or partly owned companies (AHK) was not taken into consideration when implementing seniority list
Fact 3 : officers now move to pax fleet on seniority.

ACMS quote "So how come his date of Joining is shown as 1995 in Crew Direct and now he is checking out on the 400 PAX fleet as a Capt HKG base? ( I think he's flying PAX now )"

Date of joining and date of inclusion onto seniority list are different. Date of joining was retained only for travel benefits. Date of seniority dictates when pax fleet becomes available.

ACMS quote" We integrated some of them into CX into the Freighter fleet after we bought AHK? right?

No, all of AHK were intergrated. Some in ASL chose to remain for various reasons. F/O's who were close to command stayed in ASL due 3 in 4 rule where by 3 of every 4 frtr commands would go to ASL. Some Captains stayed due to age 60 retirement in ASL. Those that did not intergrate in 2000 now sit with seniority numbers around the 2200 mark as final intergration took place in Jan 1 2008. ASL exists now purely as an employment entity for the remaining Flt Engineers.

Stillalbatross quote :Then after joining on the freighter ran to the AOA and said get us all pax jobs.

Utter misrepresentation of the truth. Check your facts or ask someone who was here at the time that the AOA approached the ASL body and jointly set this up in an effort to address split nature of the pilot group and to boost numbers. It is obvious from your response that you joined post 2000 otherwise you would know this. Regardless of your DOJ you have not been affected.

Further quote : Hence all pax crews from here on in lose 4 yrs command time and about $9 million in pay because of them.

More crap: They joined the seniority list in 2000. Everyone who joined before them and has been CAT A assessed has been given a command course.

Stillalbatross again: quote Plenty on the pax fleet interviewed for a pax job well before them and have ended up waiting for a pax command that will occur after them. Much like KA coming across to take pax commands.

Crap: KA are not taking pax commands and I challenge you to provide anyone who "interviewed for a pax job well before them and have ended up waiting for a pax command that will occur after them" because they just do not exist.

Now go check under your bed for Commies!

Thanks for your reply Fire Wall. I wanted to say the same thing but felt I may be banging my head against a brick wall. You saved me the typing.

Stillalbatros,

Is there anything in Fire Walls post that is incorrect? I think it's spot on. Please don't take your grievances out on the ASL chaps. They just happened to work for a different freight company before they joined this airline. Simple.

OK, here we go again -
stillalbatross quote: "and then approached the AOA ...."
Please advise all as to who approached the AOA?
ASL reps were persona non grata so it wasn't them.

further quote "freighter command with only a 40% reduction in pay in your HKG F/O package " (Love the "only" bit. Pure Gold)
How do you get it so wrong? The pay scales for all bases and all ranks are available as an addenum to the COS. Your sums do not add up.

Basically Stillalbatross you do not have a clue as to what has transpired over the last 8 years and you have absolutely no reason to feel agrieved because those that are going to the pax fleet now joined the company long before you did. It's called seniority.

Duh

Stillalbatross

To make your "sums" work now you are adding in "Housing" + Schooling" + "Medical". They just make it possible to live here you pl*nker, I would NOT expect to get them in my home country! :ugh::ugh:

So this is your problem. You joined the airline with a few hundred hours on turboprops from the bush and these guys stole your job. All the ASL chaps I flew with had thousand of hours heavy jet time with other carriers or significant military experience. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with young SO's with limited experience, but that's why they come here. To gain some jet time and get to the right hand seat of a wide body aircraft with a legacy carrier.

I met an SO when I joined who told me that the average ASL captain was "sub standard because they hadn't been through the rigorous passenger fleet selection process" and was therefore not worthy of the same recognition as himself. Ooh please, come on chaps, get a grip. This post is not a dig at SO's. But if you're twenty something with some twin time, then you can't expect the same opportunities as a forty something who's been around a bit.

I repeat. This is not a dig at SO's but just my thoughts on the real world. There's more to life than Cathay and the ASL blokes I flew with had a lifetime of experience and knew that this place shouldn't be taken too seriously. As NC says, "its only a job."

As myself and Fire Wall have said before, if you joined the CX seniority list before these guys, then you have nothing to worry about. They will get a pax command after you. Now if you're man enough to go across to the freighter and suffer the roster and the lifestyle for a few years, then be my guest. You'll have to drink beer with the ASL blokes though and heaven forbid, even have to get used to Flight Engineers. Now we're talking.

By the way. I accept that the ASL thing did delay commands for a many FO's on the passenger fleet. But ASL was the companies little baby and not the AOA's. If you have an issue with ASL then I suggest you take it up with the management and not each other. That just furthers the "divide and conquer" policy, which is exactly what they want.

Flame away.............

Fire Wall........you have control.

PS: My wife thinks I should get a life and stop reading this s**t. Maybe she's got a point.

stillalbatross,
quote: You know as well as I do that a lot of guys wanted to join CX and not as an S/O.

No dispute with you S.A. Still happens to this day.

quote: Are you telling me that for the good of the pax fleet and the career progression of the S/O joiners (no DEFO's back then) the freighter amalgamation back into the pax fleet took place? Bwahaahaahaa.

No, this is not what I have said. Try re reading what I wrote some two posts back. What I am trying to get thru to you is that on the date of intergration the ex ASL officers (Captains and First Officers) received a seniority number along with any of the S/O's and F/O's that joined on that same day (yes, contrary to your statement cx was employing direct entry F/O's on the Frtr ). That seniority number has moved foward due attrition / resignations and now sits at the mid 900 mark. What you seem to have misunderstood is that the intergration was brought about to counter the divisive nature of ASL as a bargaining tool against the company. Further, the process was initiated by the AOA not, as you so eloquently state "they ran to the AOA and said get us all pax positions".

I am reticent to call into question your integrity but if you had spoken to the sitting GC or president at the time you would not be sprouting such rubbish.

Time for nosh.

Is it me, or have this forum getting more like my school days?


As a bunch of professionals with a fair amount of common sense it amazes me how we can all be fighting between ourselves like pathetic little kids in the school playground. When are we all going to stand together and stand up for what we deserve.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:


Stop the bloody infighting.........

All I know is that this guy was with AHK from '95. He was a Capt on the 742 classic and in 2000 he must have joined the CX seniority list. Now he's got a 744 Pax left seat based in HK on a fairly good housing allowance.

How'd he rate that after only 8 years on our list?

Timing, I'd guess.

Like everything else in life.

Well that's why I put the question forward to you all. I hope he's only for the freighter fleet.

BUT how does he get a generous housing allowance then? I thought the freighter guys were getting screwed on a HKG basing?

WHAT a tosser you really are ACMS......... :rolleyes::yuk::rolleyes:

ACMS, I am ashamed to work for the same company as you.
Just what sort of psychological profiling allowed you to slip through the system.